Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic [OT] Looking for jobs or advice

I hope this is not too off topic for this forum. I'm looking for some short work in the period July 18 to end of Aug, preferrably near Delaware USA or Sweden. I'm interested in music jobs and computer programming jobs.

I'm not very optimistic that anyone in this forum will be able to offer me any job, but perhaps you have some advice or ideas?

In the long term I am also wondering what to do after I graduate in about a year (BS in computer science). I have many feet in with the computer industry already but very few in the music industry/academia. While I can no doubt make good money as a programmer I also yearn for working somehow with music and I'm afraid my chances will continue to shrink unless I do something now (I'm soon 27).

Putting modesty aside for a moment I think I am very musical (more so than many music majors I see) but I am not a virtuoso on any instrument, nor very fast at sight-reading music.

As for programming I think I am better than 95% of the people I see around me and I have done a few contract jobs before as well as licensed code to companies.

Thanks,
Magnus Jonsson

🔗Jon Wild <wild@...>

Hi Magnus,

> In the long term I am also wondering what to do after I graduate in about
> a year (BS in computer science). I have many feet in with the computer
> industry already but very few in the music industry/academia. While I can
> no doubt make good money as a programmer I also yearn for working somehow
> with music and I'm afraid my chances will continue to shrink unless I do
> something now (I'm soon 27).

Re long term projects, if you think you'd like research, I'll put in a plug for the excellent music technology department at my university, McGill (in Montreal). It's associated with the Centre for Interdisciplinary Research in Music Media and Technology, and there are programmers doing computer-based research in lots of areas of music. Many graduate students are well-funded (i.e. nowhere near as much as you'd make in a good programming job, of course, but certainly enough to not go further into debt). You are about the age many students are when they start graduate programs here.

You can check out the programs here:

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/research_topics
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/graduate_seminars
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/programme_and_admissions#graduate
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/resources
http://www.cirmmt.mcgill.ca/
http://www.cirmmt.mcgill.ca/research

Best - Jon

🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>

Thanks Jim!

I've checked out the links and it seems interesting. I'll certainly keep this as one option! If I decide to apply I will get back to you in the fall. The newsfeed is very interesting by the way.

Cheers,
Magnus Jonsson

On Thu, 10 May 2007, Jon Wild wrote:

>
> Hi Magnus,
>
>> In the long term I am also wondering what to do after I graduate in about
>> a year (BS in computer science). I have many feet in with the computer
>> industry already but very few in the music industry/academia. While I can
>> no doubt make good money as a programmer I also yearn for working somehow
>> with music and I'm afraid my chances will continue to shrink unless I do
>> something now (I'm soon 27).
>
> Re long term projects, if you think you'd like research, I'll put in a
> plug for the excellent music technology department at my university,
> McGill (in Montreal). It's associated with the Centre for
> Interdisciplinary Research in Music Media and Technology, and there are
> programmers doing computer-based research in lots of areas of music. Many
> graduate students are well-funded (i.e. nowhere near as much as you'd make
> in a good programming job, of course, but certainly enough to not go
> further into debt). You are about the age many students are when they
> start graduate programs here.
>
> You can check out the programs here:
>
> http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/
> http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/research_topics
> http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/graduate_seminars
> http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/programme_and_admissions#graduate
> http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/resources
> http://www.cirmmt.mcgill.ca/
> http://www.cirmmt.mcgill.ca/research
>
> Best - Jon
>

🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>

Jon of course that is! What a blunder. I have a friend called Jim so I'm too used to typing his name!

On Thu, 10 May 2007, Magnus Jonsson wrote:

> Thanks Jim!
>
> I've checked out the links and it seems interesting. I'll certainly keep
> this as one option! If I decide to apply I will get back to you in the
> fall. The newsfeed is very interesting by the way.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus Jonsson
>
> On Thu, 10 May 2007, Jon Wild wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Magnus,
>>
>>> In the long term I am also wondering what to do after I graduate in about
>>> a year (BS in computer science). I have many feet in with the computer
>>> industry already but very few in the music industry/academia. While I can
>>> no doubt make good money as a programmer I also yearn for working somehow
>>> with music and I'm afraid my chances will continue to shrink unless I do
>>> something now (I'm soon 27).
>>
>> Re long term projects, if you think you'd like research, I'll put in a
>> plug for the excellent music technology department at my university,
>> McGill (in Montreal). It's associated with the Centre for
>> Interdisciplinary Research in Music Media and Technology, and there are
>> programmers doing computer-based research in lots of areas of music. Many
>> graduate students are well-funded (i.e. nowhere near as much as you'd make
>> in a good programming job, of course, but certainly enough to not go
>> further into debt). You are about the age many students are when they
>> start graduate programs here.
>>
>> You can check out the programs here:
>>
>> http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/
>> http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/research_topics
>> http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/graduate_seminars
>> http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/programme_and_admissions#graduate
>> http://www.music.mcgill.ca/musictech/resources
>> http://www.cirmmt.mcgill.ca/
>> http://www.cirmmt.mcgill.ca/research
>>
>> Best - Jon
>>
>

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Magnus,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...> wrote:
>
> I hope this is not too off topic for this forum. I'm
> looking for some short work in the period July 18 to end
> of Aug, preferrably near Delaware USA or Sweden. I'm
> interested in music jobs and computer programming jobs.
>
> I'm not very optimistic that anyone in this forum will
> be able to offer me any job, but perhaps you have some
> advice or ideas?

We certainly could use your skills at Tonalsoft!
However, it may not be much of a "job" in view of
the amount of money that we have to pay you. But it
certainly seems like something you'd like to do.
It's short term, anyway.

We need someone who is a good Microsoft C# programmer,
and is familiar with DirectX and DotNet.

Email me privately for more.
joemonz(AT)yahoo.com

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

At 01:00 PM 5/10/2007, you wrote:
>I hope this is not too off topic for this forum. I'm looking for some
>short work in the period July 18 to end of Aug, preferrably near Delaware
>USA or Sweden. I'm interested in music jobs and computer programming jobs.
>
>I'm not very optimistic that anyone in this forum will be able to offer me
>any job, but perhaps you have some advice or ideas?
>
>In the long term I am also wondering what to do after I graduate in about
>a year (BS in computer science). I have many feet in with the computer
>industry already but very few in the music industry/academia. While I can
>no doubt make good money as a programmer I also yearn for working somehow
>with music and I'm afraid my chances will continue to shrink unless I do
>something now (I'm soon 27).
>
>Putting modesty aside for a moment I think I am very musical (more so than
>many music majors I see) but I am not a virtuoso on any instrument, nor
>very fast at sight-reading music.
>
>As for programming I think I am better than 95% of the people I see around
>me and I have done a few contract jobs before as well as licensed code to
>companies.

The tides of the world are apparently leading you to programming.
This doesn't mean you can't switch gears now, but the tides will
make one path easier than another.
I've been struggling with the same choice since I was 19 (I just
turned 30). I chose Indiana University because of its dual
strengths in music and computer science. In retrospect the
personality of the school was wrong. I'm currently working at
Apple, but in hardware engineering. Who knows what I'll do next?
All in all, my favorite thing ever was to sing in choir. But
I think doing it professionally would ruin much of what I love
about it.

-Carl

🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>

On Thu, 10 May 2007, Carl Lumma wrote:

> The tides of the world are apparently leading you to programming.
> This doesn't mean you can't switch gears now, but the tides will
> make one path easier than another.

Sure seems that way!

> I've been struggling with the same choice since I was 19 (I just
> turned 30).

I bet many of us are struggling with it.

> I chose Indiana University because of its dual
> strengths in music and computer science. In retrospect the
> personality of the school was wrong.

Just briefly, what was wrong with Indiana University?

> I'm currently working at
> Apple, but in hardware engineering.Who knows what I'll do next?

Is hardware more fun than software?
Keep us updated with what you do!

> All in all, my favorite thing ever was to sing in choir. But
> I think doing it professionally would ruin much of what I love
> about it.

Yeah, I really like singing in choir too! I didn't do it this semester because of the work load but I will try to get back doing it.

You can't tell before you try doing it professionally (given that you have the chance to do so...).

Heh, maybe MMM should start a microtonal choir :D

/ Magnus

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>> I chose Indiana University because of its dual
>> strengths in music and computer science. In retrospect the
>> personality of the school was wrong.
>
>Just briefly, what was wrong with Indiana University?

Big state school with lots of less-than-serious students.
Bland midwestern weather. And it shows you how naive I was
about college and ultimately society at large, but I was
shocked to find how compartmentalized the music and computer
science schools were. There was no way, socially or
practically, to do both.

But the biggest thing for me was probably that I was ready
to zero in on stuff to study, not take 4 more years of liberal
arts classes. So I tried that on my own, but it turns out I
maybe wasn't quite as smart as I thought I was. :)

>> I'm currently working at
>> Apple, but in hardware engineering.Who knows what I'll do next?
>
>Is hardware more fun than software?
>Keep us updated with what you do!

Unfortunately I'm not even allowed to tell my spouse what I do.

Hardware doesn't have the potential of software - it can never
leave as big a mark on the world - but it is fun to work on
things you can touch.

>> All in all, my favorite thing ever was to sing in choir. But
>> I think doing it professionally would ruin much of what I love
>> about it.
>
>Yeah, I really like singing in choir too! I didn't do it this semester
>because of the work load but I will try to get back doing it.
>
>You can't tell before you try doing it professionally (given that
>you have the chance to do so...).

I've been involved in amateur singing groups (Barbershop choirs,
Oakland Symphony Chorus, and even some really small, low-key groups)
since I left school. But my experience is always the same -- what
made choir so special in school was singing with friends / coworkers
(or whatever you call schoolmates). Perhaps like Partch, I find
that taking it out of context and turning it into a thing-in-and-
of-itself takes away much of the value for me. Maybe having a
choir at work would do it for me. I think all companies should
have them, actually.
I'm always trying desparately to get my friends together to sing.
A bunch of my grad student friends and I got together to sing
hymns on Sundays in 2004, and that approached my ideal. But my
marriage and fatherhood and their post docs sent a wrecking
ball through the effort.

>Heh, maybe MMM should start a microtonal choir :D

It would be great, if we were in physical proximity. And could
agree on anything about music other than that we like it
differently-tuned. :)

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

Magnus Jonsson wrote:
> > On Thu, 10 May 2007, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >>The tides of the world are apparently leading you to programming.
>>This doesn't mean you can't switch gears now, but the tides will
>>make one path easier than another.
> > Sure seems that way!
> >>I've been struggling with the same choice since I was 19 (I just
>>turned 30).
> > I bet many of us are struggling with it.

Well, I chose between programming and an easy life, and went for the latter. But I've never found it easy to get a good job in programming. If you can I think you should go for it. And save the money, so that 5 or 10 years down the line you can review your choice with more security.

I'm very wary of trying to mix programming and music as a career. It means you have to compromise on one or both. Either make for a good hobby and without management or funding bodies to answer to you have more freedom to do what you really want.

But that's just me. I've been reluctant to comment at all on this.

Graham

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

Magnus Jonsson wrote:
> On Fri, 11 May 2007, Jon Szanto wrote:
> > >>{you wrote...}
>>
>>>Heh, maybe MMM should start a microtonal choir :D
>>
>>Ah, you're kidding - these ugly mugs? We need something like... like...
>>
>>Microtonal Babes!
>>
>>After all, there is: http://www.mediaevalbaebes.com/
> > > They would've hooked me weren't their music so boring! I'm sure our > Microtonal Babes will be more interesting to listen to!

The point of it is that it's medieval music marketed as pop music. As such the music is as it has to be. Make it too complicated and it'll turn off new listeners.

I think there's great potential in microtonal music marketed as pop music. But it's not easy to bring about. And you shouldn't *call* it microtonal.

Graham

🔗Dave Seidel <dave@...>

I was a music major, but I bootstrapped myself as a programmer in my twenties, and have been working in that profession for over 20 years now. Although I would love to have the freedom to devote as much time as possible to music, I recognize now that my choice to pursue music as an amateur is a form of freedom in itself -- I only play what/when I want to (assuming the opportunity), and I certainly only compose what I want to.

- Dave

Graham Breed wrote:
> Well, I chose between programming and an easy life, and went > for the latter. But I've never found it easy to get a good > job in programming. If you can I think you should go for > it. And save the money, so that 5 or 10 years down the line > you can review your choice with more security.
> > I'm very wary of trying to mix programming and music as a > career. It means you have to compromise on one or both. > Either make for a good hobby and without management or > funding bodies to answer to you have more freedom to do what > you really want.
> > But that's just me. I've been reluctant to comment at all > on this.
> > > Graham

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>>>The tides of the world are apparently leading you to programming.
>>>This doesn't mean you can't switch gears now, but the tides will
>>>make one path easier than another.
>>
>> Sure seems that way!
>>
>>>I've been struggling with the same choice since I was 19 (I just
>>>turned 30).
>>
>> I bet many of us are struggling with it.
>
>Well, I chose between programming and an easy life, and went
>for the latter. But I've never found it easy to get a good
>job in programming. If you can I think you should go for
>it. And save the money, so that 5 or 10 years down the line
>you can review your choice with more security.

There are always exceptions, but I don't think security
tends to help inspire music after 10 years of programming.
When I was an editor at Keyboard magazine, we did a survey
of our subscribers. They're overwhelmingly high-salary,
middle-age hobbyists. I was also in charge of the "unsigned
artist of the month" contest. Most of the winners weren't
our typical subscribers, they were teenagers.

It's easy to get a programming job in the San Francisco
Bay Area. If you're a programmer in the States and you're
any good, there's a strong chance you'll end up here sooner
or later. The catch is the fantastic salary won't buy you
a damn thing in these parts. The only way to be able to buy
a home is to start your own business, or get in on the ground
floor of one (which admittedly is also relatively easy to
do here).

If you actually want a good living, most salaries are going
to fall far short. I think the average hair stylist makes
more in the Bay Area than the average programmer. Seriously.
Sure I'm parked next to a Ferrari every-other day, but I think
those guys have been at Apple since it was small company.
Googlers are still doing pretty well, but they won't hire you
unless you went to a famous engineering school and graduated
near the top of your class -- or invented something like
JavaScript. And there's no telling how much longer the luxury
there can last.

One of my best friends started a nuisance wildlife trapping
business with the sole purpose of making money so he could
retire. If you search for something like "raccoon" + your
U.S. city, you're likely to get one of his sites. Four years
into it, and he's retiring this month. Now he just has to
figure out what he wants to do with his life, and do it.
At age 30, with four years of completely-absorbed, blue-collar
existence about him. It isn't easy. You always wonder why
billionaires, or the Rolling Stones, don't just retire. The
thing is, you *become* what you do. It's even more important
than what you eat.

-Carl

🔗Joe <tamahome02000@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Joe <tamahome02000@...>

It's an audio codec. I checked 'Download codecs automatically', and followed the links.

----- Original Message ----
From: Carl Lumma <ekin@...>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 4:31:32 PM
Subject: Re: [MMM] [OT] Looking for jobs or advice (Microtonal Babes)

This uses an obscure codec that I'm surprised you have.

-Carl

At 12:28 PM 5/12/2007, you wrote:

>We already have a microtonal babe. Meredith 'Babe' Borden of

>Birdhouse & Willie McBlind fame:

>http://mantratv. com//video1/ Birdhouse_ High.asf

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@ yahoogroups. com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@... > wrote:

>> Magnus,

>> Best of luck in your quest, sorry that I have *nothing* to offer

>(having bailed out of programming as an 2nd occupation, and keep it

>just in the hobbyist format). You are simply too smart for the

>dustbin, someone will recognize your value!

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🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>

Thanks Dave, that makes sense (though I'm still ambivalent).

On Sat, 12 May 2007, Dave Seidel wrote:

> I was a music major, but I bootstrapped myself as a programmer in my
> twenties, and have been working in that profession for over 20 years
> now. Although I would love to have the freedom to devote as much time
> as possible to music, I recognize now that my choice to pursue music as
> an amateur is a form of freedom in itself -- I only play what/when I
> want to (assuming the opportunity), and I certainly only compose what I
> want to.
>
> - Dave
>
> Graham Breed wrote:
>> Well, I chose between programming and an easy life, and went
>> for the latter. But I've never found it easy to get a good
>> job in programming. If you can I think you should go for
>> it. And save the money, so that 5 or 10 years down the line
>> you can review your choice with more security.
>>
>> I'm very wary of trying to mix programming and music as a
>> career. It means you have to compromise on one or both.
>> Either make for a good hobby and without management or
>> funding bodies to answer to you have more freedom to do what
>> you really want.
>>
>> But that's just me. I've been reluctant to comment at all
>> on this.
>>
>>
>> Graham
>
>
>

🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>

Thanks Graham, it is worth thinking about whether I really should mix programming and music or try to keep them separate.

On Sat, 12 May 2007, Graham Breed wrote:

> Magnus Jonsson wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 10 May 2007, Carl Lumma wrote:
>>
>>> The tides of the world are apparently leading you to programming.
>>> This doesn't mean you can't switch gears now, but the tides will
>>> make one path easier than another.
>>
>> Sure seems that way!
>>
>>> I've been struggling with the same choice since I was 19 (I just
>>> turned 30).
>>
>> I bet many of us are struggling with it.
>
> Well, I chose between programming and an easy life, and went
> for the latter. But I've never found it easy to get a good
> job in programming. If you can I think you should go for
> it. And save the money, so that 5 or 10 years down the line
> you can review your choice with more security.
>
> I'm very wary of trying to mix programming and music as a
> career. It means you have to compromise on one or both.
> Either make for a good hobby and without management or
> funding bodies to answer to you have more freedom to do what
> you really want.
>
> But that's just me. I've been reluctant to comment at all
> on this.
>
>
> Graham
>

🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>

Again, thanks Carl, I appreciate your experience.

On Sat, 12 May 2007, Carl Lumma wrote:

>>>> I've been struggling with the same choice since I was 19 (I just
>>>> turned 30).
>>>
>>> I bet many of us are struggling with it.
>>
>> Well, I chose between programming and an easy life, and went
>> for the latter. But I've never found it easy to get a good
>> job in programming. If you can I think you should go for
>> it. And save the money, so that 5 or 10 years down the line
>> you can review your choice with more security.
>
> There are always exceptions, but I don't think security
> tends to help inspire music after 10 years of programming.
> When I was an editor at Keyboard magazine, we did a survey
> of our subscribers. They're overwhelmingly high-salary,
> middle-age hobbyists. I was also in charge of the "unsigned
> artist of the month" contest. Most of the winners weren't
> our typical subscribers, they were teenagers.
>
> It's easy to get a programming job in the San Francisco
> Bay Area. If you're a programmer in the States and you're
> any good, there's a strong chance you'll end up here sooner
> or later. The catch is the fantastic salary won't buy you
> a damn thing in these parts. The only way to be able to buy
> a home is to start your own business, or get in on the ground
> floor of one (which admittedly is also relatively easy to
> do here).
>
> If you actually want a good living, most salaries are going
> to fall far short. I think the average hair stylist makes
> more in the Bay Area than the average programmer. Seriously.
> Sure I'm parked next to a Ferrari every-other day, but I think
> those guys have been at Apple since it was small company.
> Googlers are still doing pretty well, but they won't hire you
> unless you went to a famous engineering school and graduated
> near the top of your class -- or invented something like
> JavaScript. And there's no telling how much longer the luxury
> there can last.
>
> One of my best friends started a nuisance wildlife trapping
> business with the sole purpose of making money so he could
> retire. If you search for something like "raccoon" + your
> U.S. city, you're likely to get one of his sites. Four years
> into it, and he's retiring this month. Now he just has to
> figure out what he wants to do with his life, and do it.
> At age 30, with four years of completely-absorbed, blue-collar
> existence about him. It isn't easy. You always wonder why
> billionaires, or the Rolling Stones, don't just retire. The
> thing is, you *become* what you do. It's even more important
> than what you eat.
>
> -Carl
>
>

🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>

On Fri, 11 May 2007, Carl Lumma wrote:

>> Just briefly, what was wrong with Indiana University?
>
> Big state school with lots of less-than-serious students.
> Bland midwestern weather. And it shows you how naive I was
> about college and ultimately society at large, but I was
> shocked to find how compartmentalized the music and computer
> science schools were. There was no way, socially or
> practically, to do both.

That is my experience too here in University of Delaware. I've been able to take some small music courses but it is tough to find time for it but I find the community around the music department pretty closed to outsiders. *Especially* when you begin talking about microtonal music or have to explain your strange accidentals :)

> But the biggest thing for me was probably that I was ready
> to zero in on stuff to study, not take 4 more years of liberal
> arts classes. So I tried that on my own, but it turns out I
> maybe wasn't quite as smart as I thought I was. :)

I'm cursing all the breadth requirements courses I have to take but I suppose some of them ARE good for me.

> I've been involved in amateur singing groups (Barbershop choirs,
> Oakland Symphony Chorus, and even some really small, low-key groups)
> since I left school. But my experience is always the same -- what
> made choir so special in school was singing with friends / coworkers
> (or whatever you call schoolmates).

I didn't really get to know anyone around me in the choir much but I thought it was fun anyway.

> Perhaps like Partch, I find that taking it out of context and turning it > into a thing-in-and- of-itself takes away much of the value for me.
> Maybe having a choir at work would do it for me. I think all companies > should have them, actually. I'm always trying desparately to get my > friends together to sing. A bunch of my grad student friends and I got > together to sing hymns on Sundays in 2004, and that approached my ideal.

Sounds fantastic!

> But my marriage and fatherhood and their post docs sent a wrecking ball > through the effort.

I'm halfway there (I'm married) so I sense a bit what you mean.

>> Heh, maybe MMM should start a microtonal choir :D
>
> It would be great, if we were in physical proximity. And could
> agree on anything about music other than that we like it
> differently-tuned. :)

I wonder if we'd actually be able to sing everything -- I sometimes try to hum along with the stuff in these lists and it's hard at times :)

/ Magnus

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

For me one of the important attitudes of HARry PArtch was the idea of using the total person into the artwork.
this involves for him integrating what is now call theater.
He had his unique gifts in many areas, some better than others, but he was complete.
It seems the idea of incorporating any of our skills to serve and augment music is just the type of endeavor he is pushing for.
I seem that this skill can be used to explore things in a direction others might not be able to

My own work in media i have applied to my work with shadow theater and before with film

Magnus Jonsson wrote:
>
> Thanks Graham, it is worth thinking about whether I really should mix
> programming and music or try to keep them separate.
>
> On Sat, 12 May 2007, Graham Breed wrote:
>
> > Magnus Jonsson wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, 10 May 2007, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >>
> >>> The tides of the world are apparently leading you to programming.
> >>> This doesn't mean you can't switch gears now, but the tides will
> >>> make one path easier than another.
> >>
> >> Sure seems that way!
> >>
> >>> I've been struggling with the same choice since I was 19 (I just
> >>> turned 30).
> >>
> >> I bet many of us are struggling with it.
> >
> > Well, I chose between programming and an easy life, and went
> > for the latter. But I've never found it easy to get a good
> > job in programming. If you can I think you should go for
> > it. And save the money, so that 5 or 10 years down the line
> > you can review your choice with more security.
> >
> > I'm very wary of trying to mix programming and music as a
> > career. It means you have to compromise on one or both.
> > Either make for a good hobby and without management or
> > funding bodies to answer to you have more freedom to do what
> > you really want.
> >
> > But that's just me. I've been reluctant to comment at all
> > on this.
> >
> >
> > Graham
> >
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Brian Redfern <brianwredfern@...>

🔗Prent Rodgers <prentrodgers@...>

My 2¢: Find the most interesting job that pays the most, and don't
insist on it being in music. Then keep up the music on the side. Of
course, at the moment, it appears that the highest paid job in Seattle
is as a lineman for the city power company:

"Seattle's public electric company more than doubled its overtime
spending last year, with dozens of crew members earning even more in
overtime than in base salary.

Twenty-seven Seattle City Light workers collected an extra $100,000 or
more in 2006, on top of their regular pay of $70,000 to $100,000. ...
The highest-earning collected $245,832."

That's $245k a year for fixing power lines. Of course, this year
included one of the worst wind storms in recent history, with over a
million people in our region without power, including our island
community for over a week. This guy must have worked a LOT of overtime
to pull down that much, leaving him precious little time to ponder the
mysteries of the 53-TET comma...

Prent Rodgers

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Redfern"
<brianwredfern@...> wrote:
>
> Yeah, as a musician/programmer, there definitely is a rather low
> ceiling, unless one moves into management, you can only make so much!
>
> My buddy is a longshore and makes more than twice I do for doing Java
> to simply unload boats, but its a union job.
>

🔗Afmmjr@...

Programming has been a "natural" for musicians, according to David
Rothenberg. However, it takes full attention.

On the other hand, temping in offices allowed a multi-tasker like me to
think and dream, even while word processing. Of course, things were much better
for me at Pfizer than at law offices. Somehow, NYC law offices are so S/M in
how the help are treated...especially, ironically, the full-timers.

Now, temping as a living has reached its twilight, and I have gone into
teaching. I sub now every day. Sometimes, 2nd graders kick my arse; sometimes I
reach teenagers in the Bronx. But I always keep my mind clear for its
musical purposes, which are a lifetime's priority. Yes, I am an educator for
adults, too.

And today is my day off. :) Johnny

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

At 07:13 AM 5/13/2007, you wrote:
>My 2¢: Find the most interesting job that pays the most, and don't
>insist on it being in music. Then keep up the music on the side. Of
>course, at the moment, it appears that the highest paid job in Seattle
>is as a lineman for the city power company:
>
>"Seattle's public electric company more than doubled its overtime
>spending last year, with dozens of crew members earning even more in
>overtime than in base salary.
>
>Twenty-seven Seattle City Light workers collected an extra $100,000 or
>more in 2006, on top of their regular pay of $70,000 to $100,000. ...
>The highest-earning collected $245,832."
>
>That's $245k a year for fixing power lines. Of course, this year
>included one of the worst wind storms in recent history, with over a
>million people in our region without power, including our island
>community for over a week. This guy must have worked a LOT of overtime
>to pull down that much, leaving him precious little time to ponder the
>mysteries of the 53-TET comma...
>
>Prent Rodgers

Another juicy plum is: wedding photographer.

-Carl

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

really the bottom line is the best job is the one that gives you the most time and the most flexible time.
i have been fortunate that i have been able to take off from my work when i have needed to.
While i think musician be written in an on/off situation.
Only extended periods of time allow certain things to develop.
Erv always says that art is not possible without idle time.
It is a funny game in that one has to give up certain things in the interest of just time
and often the lack of funds can prevent one from doing certain things.
And we all know of those
who seem to go on these downward spirals, going down and down, and down further
then all of a sudden they are on the top of the creme, (being funny)

Afmmjr@... wrote:
>
> Programming has been a "natural" for musicians, according to David
> Rothenberg. However, it takes full attention.
>
> On the other hand, temping in offices allowed a multi-tasker like me to
> think and dream, even while word processing. Of course, things were > much better
> for me at Pfizer than at law offices. Somehow, NYC law offices are so > S/M in
> how the help are treated...especially, ironically, the full-timers.
>
> Now, temping as a living has reached its twilight, and I have gone into
> teaching. I sub now every day. Sometimes, 2nd graders kick my arse; > sometimes I
> reach teenagers in the Bronx. But I always keep my mind clear for its
> musical purposes, which are a lifetime's priority. Yes, I am an > educator for
> adults, too.
>
> And today is my day off. :) Johnny
>
> ************************************** See what's free at > http://www.aol.com. <http://www.aol.com.>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗paolovalladolid <phv40@...>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗paolovalladolid <phv40@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
> It's easy to get a programming job in the San Francisco
> Bay Area. If you're a programmer in the States and you're
> any good, there's a strong chance you'll end up here sooner
> or later. The catch is the fantastic salary won't buy you
> a damn thing in these parts. The only way to be able to buy
> a home is to start your own business, or get in on the ground
> floor of one (which admittedly is also relatively easy to
> do here).

Granted, what is stated above is "there is a strong chance..." and not
"inevitably", but I've been a software developer for 12 years (some
of which was spent unemployed, but those are the breaks sometimes) and
still haven't made my way to the SF Bay Area.

I lived and worked in Tampa, FL for 3 of those years - housing was
affordable for someone working on a programmer's salary. I'm sure
there are similar pockets of housing affordability (as in, being able
to purchase a home without getting married/having a partner, not
talking about rent) for programmers in other parts of the US, or dare
I say the world.

So far, being in a band is the best thing that has happened for me
musically, even if it ultimately doesn't go anywhere. Previously when
coming home from work, I would sometimes feel drained or otherwise
unmotivated. Now, I'm motivated to practice on my instruments, look
for synth sounds that will fit certain songs, etc. I think I do need
other people with whom to collaborate, because the interaction is
energizing. The only downside of being with this band is it takes
time away from exploring microtonal music.

Paolo

🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

At 07:17 AM 5/14/2007, you wrote:
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>> It's easy to get a programming job in the San Francisco
>> Bay Area. If you're a programmer in the States and you're
>> any good, there's a strong chance you'll end up here sooner
>> or later. The catch is the fantastic salary won't buy you
>> a damn thing in these parts. The only way to be able to buy
>> a home is to start your own business, or get in on the ground
>> floor of one (which admittedly is also relatively easy to
>> do here).
>
>Granted, what is stated above is "there is a strong chance..." and not
> "inevitably", but I've been a software developer for 12 years (some
>of which was spent unemployed, but those are the breaks sometimes) and
>still haven't made my way to the SF Bay Area.
>
>I lived and worked in Tampa, FL for 3 of those years - housing was
>affordable for someone working on a programmer's salary. I'm sure
>there are similar pockets of housing affordability

Forbes did a thing on this. If you're a programmer your best bet
is in fact to live in a place like Atlanta (I think was one).

>(as in, being able
>to purchase a home without getting married/having a partner, not
>talking about rent) for programmers in other parts of the US, or dare
>I say the world.

My wife works at Netflix, and I at Apple. The house we're renting
would cost almost $1M to buy, and it's 900 sq. ft. Even most
Googlers, many making $300K/year on options, choose to rent.

>So far, being in a band is the best thing that has happened for me
>musically, even if it ultimately doesn't go anywhere. Previously when
>coming home from work, I would sometimes feel drained or otherwise
>unmotivated. Now, I'm motivated to practice on my instruments, look
>for synth sounds that will fit certain songs, etc. I think I do need
>other people with whom to collaborate, because the interaction is
>energizing. The only downside of being with this band is it takes
>time away from exploring microtonal music.

Great!

-Carl

🔗paolovalladolid <phv40@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> My wife works at Netflix, and I at Apple. The house we're renting
> would cost almost $1M to buy, and it's 900 sq. ft. Even most
> Googlers, many making $300K/year on options, choose to rent.

Wow, that's insane.

Houses in decent parts of the DC area can still be had for under $1M,
that are near the technology centers of this region. These tech
centers are generally fueled by government-related work/contracting.
Not sure this area would be best for Magnus, though, because most of
the openings here require U.S. citizenship and/or secret clearance.
Condos are about $300K to $600K. Single family homes are about the
same or little more, depending on whether you buy new, what
neighborhood, etc. Some opt for Baltimore and put up with 1 hour+ per
way commutes because they really want to own a home badly. The great
instrument designer/inventor Pete Blasser lives in a house he bought
for about $50K in one of the ugliest parts of Baltimore, but the low
housing prices is what is attracting artists to that area, despite the
ghetto image. I've noticed prices of new homes in B'more climbing
though, especially near newly revitalized/being revitalized sectors
such as the vicinity of MNT Stadium (Ravens) and the Orioles' baseball
park. I've thought of eventually buying a home B'More because of the
more active arts scenes, but my job is so close to where I live now,
and I've been spending more money on gear because of band-related needs.

🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>

🔗paolovalladolid <phv40@...>

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> For me one of the important attitudes of HARry PArtch was the idea of
> using the total person into the artwork.
> this involves for him integrating what is now call theater.
> He had his unique gifts in many areas, some better than others, but he
> was complete.
> It seems the idea of incorporating any of our skills to serve and
> augment music is just the type of endeavor he is pushing for.
> I seem that this skill can be used to explore things in a direction
> others might not be able to
>
> My own work in media i have applied to my work with shadow theater and
> before with film
>

I've had both positive and negative experiences working for theatre.
Mostly negative-neutral, but that's because I find having a large
amount of importance placed on the contribution of the music critical
for me to get much positive out of the project. 'Peer Gynt' was the
peak of this for me: the narrative *depended* on the music/sound cues,
and some other plays I've done barely so--those were disappointing,
considering the work involved.

I'm looking to collaborate with dance companies---music *has* to be
front and center more so than in theatre, and I think it would
ultimately make me much happier than being mostly in the background.

-A.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

well i have had to resort with creating my own theater context and do this myself.
For the very reasons as yourself. And Partch made a great contribution to theater in his work that made what i do possible, even though i do not think it is derivative of what
he did. In the same way i can say in passing that the greek theater made it possible for him to do what he did.
And as close as he stood next to that approach, he greatly surpasses what we know of it.

I think dance is also something i would like to pursue more. and am trying
My favorite composers all did work for dance, almost exclusively

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, Kraig Grady > <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> >
> > For me one of the important attitudes of HARry PArtch was the idea of
> > using the total person into the artwork.
> > this involves for him integrating what is now call theater.
> > He had his unique gifts in many areas, some better than others, but he
> > was complete.
> > It seems the idea of incorporating any of our skills to serve and
> > augment music is just the type of endeavor he is pushing for.
> > I seem that this skill can be used to explore things in a direction
> > others might not be able to
> >
> > My own work in media i have applied to my work with shadow theater and
> > before with film
> >
>
> I've had both positive and negative experiences working for theatre.
> Mostly negative-neutral, but that's because I find having a large
> amount of importance placed on the contribution of the music critical
> for me to get much positive out of the project. 'Peer Gynt' was the
> peak of this for me: the narrative *depended* on the music/sound cues,
> and some other plays I've done barely so--those were disappointing,
> considering the work involved.
>
> I'm looking to collaborate with dance companies---music *has* to be
> front and center more so than in theatre, and I think it would
> ultimately make me much happier than being mostly in the background.
>
> -A.
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗monz <monz@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "paolovalladolid" <phv40@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@> wrote:
> >
> > My wife works at Netflix, and I at Apple. The house we're renting
> > would cost almost $1M to buy, and it's 900 sq. ft. Even most
> > Googlers, many making $300K/year on options, choose to rent.
>
> Wow, that's insane.

That's California.

It's basically the same in San Diego. I have no idea
how people who earn the "median income", which is something
like $43,000 (which is more than i make) can buy a house.

A real house with a yard cannot be found here for under
$350,000, and the ones with a price like that are in the
worst ghettos. A decent place is $500K and up.

-monz

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

At 08:43 AM 5/14/2007, you wrote:
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>>
>> My wife works at Netflix, and I at Apple. The house we're renting
>> would cost almost $1M to buy, and it's 900 sq. ft. Even most
>> Googlers, many making $300K/year on options, choose to rent.
>
>Wow, that's insane.

My first job after quitting school was as a cashier at a gas
station. The feeling of freedom was incredible. I made $6/hr.
As impossibly broke as I felt at the time, this was actually a
better salary, as a fraction of the (much larger, actually)
starter home price in that area than what I'm currently making
at Apple!

>Houses in decent parts of the DC area can still be had for under $1M,
>that are near the technology centers of this region.

DC actually has the highest salary per capita of any province
in the U.S. regionoid.

>These tech
>centers are generally fueled by government-related work/contracting.
>Not sure this area would be best for Magnus, though, because most of
>the openings here require U.S. citizenship and/or secret clearance.
>Condos are about $300K to $600K.

1br. Condos here are 600-900K. Average is about 800.

One more thing: as far as overpaid service jobs, I forgot
chimney sweep! Fireplaces are going out of style these days,
so I'm sure business is declining. But what they say in
Mary Poppins was in fact very true in those days, and still
is if you can find the work.

Interestingly, the founder of the largest nuisance wildlife
control chain in the U.S. used to be a sweep!

-Carl

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@...>

🔗Brian Redfern <brianwredfern@...>

Well, I think Kraig has some good advice, it certainly helps to have
some spare time. That's why teaching is often the best, but its also a
long road to get there, since you usually have to do something really
great, and then get offers to teach.

However there are sometimes gigs at the local community college. One
friend who does music full time has a wife who's a doctor and then he
teaches at the local community college.

I've been too intimidated to go for those, oftentimes the openings
that come up, like one at CalArts, are looking for an artist with all
the past experience and super-credentials of a composer like Morton
Subotnick, so whatever a person does for a living as a "day job" it
often takes a lot of dedication and missed sleep to really make it
happen, and a pit-bull like tenacity.

Ultimately for most experimental artists having a stable academic gig
is really the golden ticket, though you won't be able to buy an
aquarium full of sharks and a lear jey like Barry White, its possible
to live a reasonable lifestyle and do nothing but music, and teaching
music, but that's probably the least harmful end for a pure artist.