JI afterimage

I have been dabbling in meantone for a while but now I'm returning to a just intonation phase (actually extended pythagorean approximating the 7-limit and to some extent the 11-limit), and I noticed an interesting difference between them:

When I play in just intonation for an hour or so, I have very vivid afterimages of the pitches and intervals used. It feels like my head is full of many music notes at once, like experiencing the JI rational grid almost directly. This feels very satisfying. I haven't noticed this effect in any variety of meantone.

Could it be a phenomenon similar to visual afterimages? That JI will tend to stimulate very specific frequencies in the ear causing them to get fatigued?

More interestingly, have you also experienced this?

/ Magnus

The lack of ambiguity of the intervals allows for me each pitch to define itself in a structure which in turn becomes part of the expression.
When i had worked with the eikosany for 15 years almost daily. Fatigue is not anything i have ever experienced, it is just the brain processing the phenomenon
of a structure.
a single pitch could take on a meaning because it would imply the whole or at least the neighborhood in which it resides.
JI has as i have tried to point out is not just ( pardon the pun) about creating just chords or less beating intervals.
It makes possible structural possibilities of musical meaning that are not in any way really possible in 12. In fact i do not think it has quite sunk in that there is this every real possible creation of musical meaning that really has little historical predecessors, except conceptionally. True the classical period attempted to use key schemes in quite this way and it did work until one ventured to too many keys where the ambiguous would undermine this type of comprehension.

This is not to imply that art cannot or should not be ambiguous, it ability t o make ambiguity meaningful is one of the ways it surpasses science.
but their are possibilities within an unambiguous tonal universe that i think we can barely comprehend at least how far the mind can actually take it
To read Gene's earlier post how extended JI would lead him to a realization of a particular EDO, i think reflects
how the mind will gravitate toward some system that involves melodic integrity.
After all EDO are a particular forms of MOS in fact they are a condensation of often many of them.
That Partch chose to fill out the gaps in the diamond in such a way that made melodic integrity possible over adding say 13 limit intervals.
At least to me illustrates that melodic integrity is just as powerful as harmonic integrity in actual music making
I will venture to say i think it is actually more powerful.

Magnus Jonsson wrote:
>
>
> I have been dabbling in meantone for a while but now I'm returning to a
> just intonation phase (actually extended pythagorean approximating the
> 7-limit and to some extent the 11-limit), and I noticed an interesting
> difference between them:
>
> When I play in just intonation for an hour or so, I have very vivid
> afterimages of the pitches and intervals used. It feels like my head is
> full of many music notes at once, like experiencing the JI rational grid
> almost directly. This feels very satisfying. I haven't noticed this > effect
> in any variety of meantone.
>
> Could it be a phenomenon similar to visual afterimages? That JI will tend
> to stimulate very specific frequencies in the ear causing them to get
> fatigued?
>
> More interestingly, have you also experienced this?
>
> / Magnus
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> JI has as i have tried to point out is not just ( pardon the pun)
about
> creating just chords or less beating intervals.
> It makes possible structural possibilities of musical meaning that
are
> not in any way really possible in 12...

> This is not to imply that art cannot or should not be ambiguous, it
> ability t o make ambiguity meaningful is one of the ways it surpasses
> science.
> but their are possibilities within an unambiguous tonal universe
that i
> think we can barely comprehend at least how far the mind can actually
> take it.

Well said. I often think that too much attention is paid to matters of
practicality or convenience when discussing tuning systems. There are
fascinating structures in just intonation that are well worth studying.

I also enjoy the ambiguity of tempered systems and sometimes prefer it,
but I don't believe that temperaments serve as a replacement of the
kind of structure that exists in systems of just intonation. Instead,
they provide different kinds of structure with their own aesthetic
qualities.

Thanks Kraig for your interesting response. Your points about interval ambiguity and melodic integrity especially help to explain how a clearer mental image can be formed than in meantone which is inherently ambigious. And it is good to know I can safely work in JI without fearing to tire my ears :)

I find extended pythagorean works very well for me as shorthand for JI and also in practice it sounds the same. I use a \ to denote "flat by a pyth comma" and / to denote "sharp by a pyth comma". I imagine Gene has similar advantages in his EDO of choice (what EDO is that?) too, especially if he is modulating a lot. I tend to not stray very far from my initial tonic.

/Magnus

On Tue, 1 May 2007, Kraig Grady wrote:

> The lack of ambiguity of the intervals allows for me each pitch to
> define itself in a structure which in turn becomes part of the expression.
> When i had worked with the eikosany for 15 years almost daily. Fatigue
> is not anything i have ever experienced, it is just the brain processing
> the phenomenon
> of a structure.
> a single pitch could take on a meaning because it would imply the whole
> or at least the neighborhood in which it resides.
> JI has as i have tried to point out is not just ( pardon the pun) about
> creating just chords or less beating intervals.
> It makes possible structural possibilities of musical meaning that are
> not in any way really possible in 12. In fact i do not think it has
> quite sunk in that there is this every real possible creation of musical
> meaning that really has little historical predecessors, except
> conceptionally. True the classical period attempted to use key schemes
> in quite this way and it did work until one ventured to too many keys
> where the ambiguous would undermine this type of comprehension.
>
> This is not to imply that art cannot or should not be ambiguous, it
> ability t o make ambiguity meaningful is one of the ways it surpasses
> science.
> but their are possibilities within an unambiguous tonal universe that i
> think we can barely comprehend at least how far the mind can actually
> take it
>
>
> To read Gene's earlier post how extended JI would lead him to a
> realization of a particular EDO, i think reflects
> how the mind will gravitate toward some system that involves melodic
> integrity.
> After all EDO are a particular forms of MOS in fact they are a
> condensation of often many of them.
> That Partch chose to fill out the gaps in the diamond in such a way
> that made melodic integrity possible over adding say 13 limit intervals.
> At least to me illustrates that melodic integrity is just as powerful
> as harmonic integrity in actual music making
> I will venture to say i think it is actually more powerful.
>
> Magnus Jonsson wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have been dabbling in meantone for a while but now I'm returning to a
>> just intonation phase (actually extended pythagorean approximating the
>> 7-limit and to some extent the 11-limit), and I noticed an interesting
>> difference between them:
>>
>> When I play in just intonation for an hour or so, I have very vivid
>> afterimages of the pitches and intervals used. It feels like my head is
>> full of many music notes at once, like experiencing the JI rational grid
>> almost directly. This feels very satisfying. I haven't noticed this
>> effect
>> in any variety of meantone.
>>
>> Could it be a phenomenon similar to visual afterimages? That JI will tend
>> to stimulate very specific frequencies in the ear causing them to get
>> fatigued?
>>
>> More interestingly, have you also experienced this?
>>
>> / Magnus
>>
>>
>
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>
wrote:

> I find extended pythagorean works very well for me as shorthand for
JI and
> also in practice it sounds the same. I use a \ to denote "flat by a
pyth
> comma" and / to denote "sharp by a pyth comma". I imagine Gene has
similar
> advantages in his EDO of choice (what EDO is that?) too, especially
if he
> is modulating a lot. I tend to not stray very far from my initial
tonic.

I, notoriously, don't have a tuning system of choice.
Herman Miller and I like to play the field, him on
the low end and me on the high end. Your extended
Pythagorean tuning system will probably in practice
turn into schismatic or garibaldi (a 7-limit version)
incidentally.

On Wed, 2 May 2007, Daniel Thompson wrote:

>> but their are possibilities within an unambiguous tonal universe
> that i
>> think we can barely comprehend at least how far the mind can actually
>> take it.
>
> Well said. I often think that too much attention is paid to matters of
> practicality or convenience when discussing tuning systems. There are
> fascinating structures in just intonation that are well worth studying.

Agreed! Even limiting myself to "only" 12 pitches per octave (to stay sane behind the keyboard) the possibilities are fascinating! 95% of what I need can be covered by 12 notes. I don't see why JI should be that impractical these days. Even if a performer can't reproduce it perfectly JI provides a great framework to think in. And hopefully with that ambiguity gone the performers will learn quickly to intonate it correctly.

I wasn't aware of garibaldi, thanks. The differences seem subtle. I got renewed interest in schismatic tunings when I learned and grokked how well they do in the 7-limit well too.

On Wed, 2 May 2007, Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>
> wrote:
>
> I, notoriously, don't have a tuning system of choice.
> Herman Miller and I like to play the field, him on
> the low end and me on the high end. Your extended
> Pythagorean tuning system will probably in practice
> turn into schismatic or garibaldi (a 7-limit version)
> incidentally.
>
>

Hi Magnus,

You might want to check out the Choob with the Roz tuning... a form
of Garibaldi, more or less...

See Dave Keenan's posts about it...

Robin

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>
wrote:
>
> I wasn't aware of garibaldi, thanks. The differences seem subtle.
I got
> renewed interest in schismatic tunings when I learned and grokked
how well
> they do in the 7-limit well too.
>
> On Wed, 2 May 2007, Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@>
> > wrote:
> >
> > I, notoriously, don't have a tuning system of choice.
> > Herman Miller and I like to play the field, him on
> > the low end and me on the high end. Your extended
> > Pythagorean tuning system will probably in practice
> > turn into schismatic or garibaldi (a 7-limit version)
> > incidentally.
> >
> >
>