Spitting on 11-ET...

Gene:

"That's mostly coming from Roman Turovsky, who is a bit eccentric. I
loved the time when Shawn Beard, who has a very 19th century style,
offered something up and was told it sounded like Galuppi."

He (Roman Turovsky) wrote to me after I posted the complete version (all
3 movements) of "Sonata for Guitar & Harpsichord in 19-ET" at ZeBox. He
said the 3rd movement was a "NewAgelike mess". I think that's probably a
compliment.

For those of you who are yearning for something a bit more substantial
(and less rigid) in 11-et than "Xenophon 3", I'm working up a new piece
even as we speak. All versions of "Xenophon" were created with Orion
Pro, which is a nice software for what it does -- but it's
pattern-based, which imparts a certain amount of inflexibility. The new
work will be created with Harmony Assistant and will hopefully have more
to offer.

Best,

jls

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "J.Smith" <jsmith9624@...> wrote:

> For those of you who are yearning for something a bit more substantial
> (and less rigid) in 11-et than "Xenophon 3", I'm working up a new
piece
> even as we speak.

Still haven't managed to wean anyone away from 11-et to Hanson[11], I
see. It's a pity.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "J.Smith" <jsmith9624@> wrote:
>
> > For those of you who are yearning for something a bit more substantial
> > (and less rigid) in 11-et than "Xenophon 3", I'm working up a new
> piece
> > even as we speak.
>
> Still haven't managed to wean anyone away from 11-et to Hanson[11], I
> see. It's a pity.

I think I already asked this...but can you post a .scl file for
Hanson[11] here? I can't tell if it's a scale I'd want to use until I
see/try it, and I have a hard time figuring it out from 'wedgies', etc.

Thanks,
Aaron.

>> Still haven't managed to wean anyone away from 11-et to Hanson[11], I
>> see. It's a pity.
>
>I think I already asked this...but can you post a .scl file for
>Hanson[11] here? I can't tell if it's a scale I'd want to use until I
>see/try it, and I have a hard time figuring it out from 'wedgies', etc.
>
>Thanks,
>Aaron.

A- it's a chain of minor thirds in 19-ET. -C.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> >> Still haven't managed to wean anyone away from 11-et to
Hanson[11], I
> >> see. It's a pity.
> >
> >I think I already asked this...but can you post a .scl file for
> >Hanson[11] here? I can't tell if it's a scale I'd want to use until I
> >see/try it, and I have a hard time figuring it out from 'wedgies', etc.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Aaron.
>
> A- it's a chain of minor thirds in 19-ET. -C.

So, 10 of them, meaning 11-notes?

>> A- it's a chain of minor thirds in 19-ET. -C.
>
>So, 10 of them, meaning 11-notes?

Exactly. -C.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Krister Johnson"
<aaron@...> wrote:

> I think I already asked this...but can you post a .scl file for
> Hanson[11] here? I can't tell if it's a scale I'd want to use until I
> see/try it, and I have a hard time figuring it out from 'wedgies',
etc.

/makemicromusic/topicId_16064.html#16088

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> >> Still haven't managed to wean anyone away from 11-et to Hanson
[11], I
> >> see. It's a pity.
> >
> >I think I already asked this...but can you post a .scl file for
> >Hanson[11] here? I can't tell if it's a scale I'd want to use until I
> >see/try it, and I have a hard time figuring it out from 'wedgies',
etc.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Aaron.
>
> A- it's a chain of minor thirds in 19-ET. -C.

It's better if the thirds are a little sharp, as with 53-et or even 34-
et.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "J.Smith" <jsmith9624@> wrote:
>
> > For those of you who are yearning for something a bit more
substantial
> > (and less rigid) in 11-et than "Xenophon 3", I'm working up a new
> piece
> > even as we speak.
>
> Still haven't managed to wean anyone away from 11-et to Hanson[11],
I
> see. It's a pity.
>

Apples and oranges.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Cameron Bobro"
<misterbobro@...> wrote:

> > Still haven't managed to wean anyone away from 11-et to Hanson[11],
> I
> > see. It's a pity.
> >
>
> Apples and oranges.

They both have 11 notes to the octave in a regular arrangement. If you
have a great melody line in 11-et, you could start the ball rolling by
seeing how it sounds in all 11 modes of Hanson[11].

Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Cameron Bobro" > <misterbobro@...> wrote:
> >>> Still haven't managed to wean anyone away from 11-et to Hanson[11], >> I >>> see. It's a pity.
>>>
>> Apples and oranges.
> > They both have 11 notes to the octave in a regular arrangement. If you > have a great melody line in 11-et, you could start the ball rolling by > seeing how it sounds in all 11 modes of Hanson[11].

The results might be interesting, but only by chance; hanson[11] with its 4 large steps of 181.10 cents and 7 small steps of 67.99 cents doesn't have anything close to the 109.09 cent steps of 11-ET. The 8 large steps of sensi[11] are somewhat better at 129.36 cents, but the 3 small steps are only 54.89 cents. Ripple[11] and passion[11] are too close to 12-ET to be of much interest in this case.

Another option is to take every other note of a 22-note scale like porcupine[22], srutal[22], magic[22], superpyth[22], or orson[22].

But for me, one of the things that's great about 11-ET is its own unique nature, far from the usual temperaments, and not having any consistent interpretation as JI. Only 13-ET really comes close to 11-ET's eccentric nature.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...>
wrote:

> The results might be interesting, but only by chance; hanson[11]
with
> its 4 large steps of 181.10 cents and 7 small steps of 67.99 cents
> doesn't have anything close to the 109.09 cent steps of 11-ET.

The 200 cent and 100 cent steps of the 12-et diatonic scale are not
much like the 171 cents of 7-et, but you can take a melody from one
and recognize it in the other. You know that sort of thing as well as
anyone does.

> But for me, one of the things that's great about 11-ET is its own
unique
> nature, far from the usual temperaments, and not having any
consistent
> interpretation as JI.

It actually does have a consistent interpretation if we don't insist
we are getting the complete prime limit for some prime. As a {2,7,11}
system, it has commas 352/343 and 14641/14336, each with its own
temoperament. The first works via (11/2)/(7/3)^3 = 343/343, and the
second via (11/8)^4/(7/2) = 14641/14336. But there's more--you can
take 11-et to be a {2,7,9,11} temperament, treating 9 as a prime and
mapping it to 35. Now you get all the commas of 22 where 3 appears
only to an even power, which means a lot of them.

> Only 13-ET really comes close to 11-ET's eccentric
> nature.

I think that's a bit more eccentric.

Thus spoke Herman:

> But for me, one of the things that's great about 11-ET is its own
unique nature, far from the usual temperaments, and not having any
consistent interpretation as JI. Only 13-ET really comes close to
11-ET's eccentric nature.

Aaron:
Yes, yes, yes! There's always something ineresting and 'twisted' about
any tuning that approximates JI badly. And the interesting thing is,
there are fewer of these types of tunings, theoretically, because the
larger you go in EDOs, you have an infinite number of EDOs that
approximate JI by having some close approximation to some harmonic or
other, whereas there are only a medium-sized handful of EDOs, towards
the low end of the divisions, to pick from if you want an 'out-there'
tuning. 11 and 13 are remarkably good examples of this, and since they
surround 12, they also speak to the specialness of 12, too. (sorry,
12-tet haters)