Rondo in 19ET

New piece written this weekend, uploaded here:

http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html

"Rondo in 19ET" (or 19EDO if you like) is the first piece I've written in this tuning. It's three voice counterpoint in 3/8 meter, using a dance-like subject I came up with last month when recording one of the video demos for the Tuning Box. Versions are uploaded for classical guitar and harpsichord.

Cheers,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aahunt@...>
wrote:
>
> New piece written this weekend, uploaded here:
>
> http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
>
> "Rondo in 19ET" (or 19EDO if you like) is the first piece I've written
> in this tuning. It's three voice counterpoint in 3/8 meter, using a
> dance-like subject I came up with last month when recording one of the
> video demos for the Tuning Box. Versions are uploaded for classical
> guitar and harpsichord.
>
> Cheers,
> Aaron Hunt
> H-Pi Instruments

Hey Aaron,

Your rate of completion of music is an argument in overwhelming
support of the sentiment, "This would be a lot easier if I had a
microtonal keyboard controller..."

Is this Rondo feasibly performable on the Tonal Plexus or
retuned-normal keyboard?

respectfully,
jacob

That's great! My 1-year-old son likes it too. He's dancing
to it at the moment.

-Carl

At 01:57 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote:
>New piece written this weekend, uploaded here:
>
>http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
>
>"Rondo in 19ET" (or 19EDO if you like) is the first piece I've written
>in this tuning. It's three voice counterpoint in 3/8 meter, using a
>dance-like subject I came up with last month when recording one of the
>video demos for the Tuning Box. Versions are uploaded for classical
>guitar and harpsichord.
>
>Cheers,
>Aaron Hunt
>H-Pi Instruments

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aahunt@...>
wrote:

> "Rondo in 19ET" (or 19EDO if you like) is the first piece I've written
> in this tuning.

I like it...I'm a die hard fan of 19, too. I like this the best out of
the bunch so far.

I notice you like to use 19 in a very directly xentonal hardcore way,
quite a lot of surface chromaticism, although with vertical
consonance. I tend myself to favor fooling people with it's
normalness, sustaining typical or quasi-typical progressions, etc. and
then 'pulling the rug' out from under their ears, so to speak (to use
an overly used phrase of late) with a surprise harmonic or melodic
jump. But it's 19, so it's all good in my book.

Anyway, you are having a very productive period...good for you! You
are inspiring me to get to work finishing a few things. I left a
sketch for a 19-tet fugue undone a while back...maybe that should
emerge next...

Best,
Aaron.

Help, can someone explain how and what is happening in the below?

Is there some standard musical, math explanation for this?

Frequency #1 Reciprocal of Freq 1 *2
----------------------------------------
1.851351 1.080292

Frequency #2 Reciprocal of Freq 1 *2
----------------------------------------
-1.167568 -1.712963

Frequency #1 / Reciprocal of Freq 1 *2
-------------------------------------------
1.851351 / -1.712963 = -1.080789
-1.080789 = Close to Reciprocal of Freq # 1

Reciprocal of Freq 1 *2 / Frequency #2
-------------------------------------------
1.080292 / -1.167568 = -1.850501

-1.850501 = Close to Freq # 1

---------------------------------
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in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Help, can someone explain how and what is happening in the below?

Is there some standard musical, math explanation for this?

Frequency #1 Reciprocal of Freq 1 *2
----------------------------------------
1.851351 1.080292

Frequency #2 Reciprocal of Freq 1 *2
----------------------------------------
-1.167568 -1.712963

Frequency #1 / Reciprocal of Freq 1 *2
-------------------------------------------
1.851351 / -1.712963 = -1.080789
-1.080789 = Close to Reciprocal of Freq # 1

Reciprocal of Freq 1 *2 / Frequency #2
-------------------------------------------
1.080292 / -1.167568 = -1.850501

-1.850501 = Close to Freq # 1

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Jacob.

The Rondo is entirely playable but requires an 88 key controller. Because wider stretches
are required, it is slightly awkward, but feasible.

Though I started this piece at the keyboard with TBX1, I ended up writing most of it
directly into the computer (Overture notation software for Mac OSX) controlling TBX1
through a MIDI interface because I don't yet have an 88 key controller.

It would be possible to play the Rondo on a Tonal Plexus, but I feel it's less appropriate. I
use the Plexus for just intonation, where access to any pitch is required, and a standard
keyboard can't possibly cope with the demands of the music. The Plexus is also great for
seeing where pitches of any tuning fall within the octave. But with a fixed ET, I feel a
regular keyboard is more appropriate for performance.

So at the risk of having all my posts just sound like ads for my stuff, in response to the
remark

"This would be a lot easier if I had a
> microtonal keyboard controller..."

I have to say that I'm finding it is really easy to write music in whatever ETs using a regular
keyboard, regular notation software and a Tuning Box. I've been waiting a long time to
compose in other ETs because it always just seemed like way too much work to try and
figure out how the heck to do it. Basically, I wanted it to be as easy as writing music in
12ET, with all the benefits of using notation software. So I designed the Tuning Box to do
just that. Now that it is a reality I am having a total blast finally writing some music.
Writing in whatever tuning is the same process as normal composition only with the added
steps of connecting a few cables and pressing a button. I can play around and get an idea
by ear, write it down and work with it, go to the computer and notate it, listen, transpose,
choose different sounds, and just have fun and get it done.

I guess anyone who has a synth capable of uploading full range tunings from Scala has
been able to do basically the same thing, only not as easily? I don't own any synths
especially equipped for microtones beyond 12 note scales, so I can't compare the
experiences.

n.b. While 19 starts to become awkward, 17ET is more managable and as you know has
lots of possibilities!

Cheers,
Aaron Hunt

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jacob" <jbarton@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aahunt@>
> > http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
> >
> > "Rondo in 19ET"
>
> Hey Aaron,
>
> Your rate of completion of music is an argument in overwhelming
> support of the sentiment, "This would be a lot easier if I had a
> microtonal keyboard controller..."
>
> Is this Rondo feasibly performable on the Tonal Plexus or
> retuned-normal keyboard?
>
> respectfully,
> jacob
>

Thanks, Carl. A child of 1 dancing to microtones! Now that is the future! Made me happy
to hear of it.

Aaron Hunt
http://www.h-pi.com

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> That's great! My 1-year-old son likes it too. He's dancing
> to it at the moment.
>
> -Carl
>
> At 01:57 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote:
> >New piece written this weekend, uploaded here:
> >
> >http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
> >
> >"Rondo in 19ET" (or 19EDO if you like) is the first piece I've written
> >in this tuning. It's three voice counterpoint in 3/8 meter, using a
> >dance-like subject I came up with last month when recording one of the
> >video demos for the Tuning Box. Versions are uploaded for classical
> >guitar and harpsichord.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Aaron Hunt
> >H-Pi Instruments
>

Hi Aaron,

I'm glad you liked it and thanks for the feedback. I remember hearing some of your fugue
when you posted last year. The chromatic technique I used in this piece wasn't really
planned; it just unfolded as I wrote it. I like your technique as you describe so well which
plays more on contrast and surprise, as in your 'juggler' piece which I like very much.

Now go finish your fugue!

Yours,
Aaron Hunt

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Krister Johnson" <aaron@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aahunt@>
> wrote:
>
> > "Rondo in 19ET" (or 19EDO if you like) is the first piece I've written
> > in this tuning.
>
> I like it...I'm a die hard fan of 19, too. I like this the best out of
> the bunch so far.
>
> I notice you like to use 19 in a very directly xentonal hardcore way,
> quite a lot of surface chromaticism, although with vertical
> consonance. I tend myself to favor fooling people with it's
> normalness, sustaining typical or quasi-typical progressions, etc. and
> then 'pulling the rug' out from under their ears, so to speak (to use
> an overly used phrase of late) with a surprise harmonic or melodic
> jump. But it's 19, so it's all good in my book.
>
> Anyway, you are having a very productive period...good for you! You
> are inspiring me to get to work finishing a few things. I left a
> sketch for a 19-tet fugue undone a while back...maybe that should
> emerge next...
>
> Best,
> Aaron.
>

Hi Aaron and Carl,

Consider the household the kid is growing up in!
;-)

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Andrew Hunt"
<aahunt@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Carl. A child of 1 dancing to microtones!
> Now that is the future! Made me happy to hear of it.
>
> Aaron Hunt
> http://www.h-pi.com
>
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@> wrote:
> >
> > That's great! My 1-year-old son likes it too. He's dancing
> > to it at the moment.
> >
> > -Carl

Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:

> > I guess anyone who has a synth capable of uploading full range tunings from Scala has > been able to do basically the same thing, only not as easily? I don't own any synths > especially equipped for microtones beyond 12 note scales, so I can't compare the > experiences. I've used my DX7II for some of my music, either playing directly into Cakewalk, or playing around with melodic and harmonic material that ends up being entered through the piano roll. I have a strip of paper taped above the keys with labels for the notes of the 16-note lemba scale.

Any scale with more than 12 notes to the octave is really awkward to deal with (until you get to 24 notes), especially non-equal scales (where it can be a matter of luck whether you end up with a dissonant or consonant interval, if the organization of the keyboard doesn't match the scale). Equal scales are a little easier to deal with; "This Way to the Egress" in 14-ET for instance was composed mainly with the use of the keyboard, as were "Triskaidekaphobia" in 13-ET and a couple of the main themes in "Mizarian Porcupine Overture" (15-ET). "Lemba Galatsia", although done entirely with the piano roll, was based on many hours of experimentation and planning using a keyboard layout with the basic 10-note lemba scale mapped to the black keys. Finding an appropriate keyboard layout can make a huge difference!

Hi Herman. Piano roll notation approaches something like MegaScore notation, only much
more abstractly and without any connection to music theory or correctly spelled notation.
Scordatura notation seems easy for ETs, because transposition works in exactly the same
way. Unequal tunings are another story entirely! I wonder, do you use piano-roll entry out
of preference or necessity?

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:
>
> Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
>
> >
> > I guess anyone who has a synth capable of uploading full range tunings from Scala
has
> > been able to do basically the same thing, only not as easily? I don't own any synths
> > especially equipped for microtones beyond 12 note scales, so I can't compare the
> > experiences.
>
> I've used my DX7II for some of my music, either playing directly into
> Cakewalk, or playing around with melodic and harmonic material that ends
> up being entered through the piano roll. I have a strip of paper taped
> above the keys with labels for the notes of the 16-note lemba scale.
>
> Any scale with more than 12 notes to the octave is really awkward to
> deal with (until you get to 24 notes), especially non-equal scales
> (where it can be a matter of luck whether you end up with a dissonant or
> consonant interval, if the organization of the keyboard doesn't match
> the scale). Equal scales are a little easier to deal with; "This Way to
> the Egress" in 14-ET for instance was composed mainly with the use of
> the keyboard, as were "Triskaidekaphobia" in 13-ET and a couple of the
> main themes in "Mizarian Porcupine Overture" (15-ET). "Lemba Galatsia",
> although done entirely with the piano roll, was based on many hours of
> experimentation and planning using a keyboard layout with the basic
> 10-note lemba scale mapped to the black keys. Finding an appropriate
> keyboard layout can make a huge difference!
>

Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
> Hi Herman. Piano roll notation approaches something like MegaScore notation, only much > more abstractly and without any connection to music theory or correctly spelled notation. > Scordatura notation seems easy for ETs, because transposition works in exactly the same > way. Unequal tunings are another story entirely! I wonder, do you use piano-roll entry out > of preference or necessity?

Cakewalk pretty much has four ways of getting notes in: direct MIDI input, piano roll, the MIDI event list, and staff notation. But the staff notation is limited to 12-ET, and is pretty much useless for simulating natural variations in rhythm or phrasing. You can edit the MIDI events directly in the Event List, which gives you the ultimate in precision, but unless I'm entering a precise, complex rhythm or modifying individual pitch bends, I rarely use it. Considering the alternatives, piano roll isn't so bad. (Maybe when the Thummer is commercially available I won't need to use the piano roll so much.)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...>
wrote:

> Cakewalk pretty much has four ways of getting notes in: direct MIDI
> input, piano roll, the MIDI event list, and staff notation. But the
> staff notation is limited to 12-ET, and is pretty much useless for
> simulating natural variations in rhythm or phrasing. You can edit the
> MIDI events directly in the Event List, which gives you the ultimate
in
> precision, but unless I'm entering a precise, complex rhythm or
> modifying individual pitch bends, I rarely use it.

Wow, MODI event list sounds as if I could use Cakewalk, and I guess it
can be used to control softsynths. Now, why did no one ever mention
this before?

Gene,

{you wrote...}
>Wow, MODI event list sounds as if I could use Cakewalk, and I guess it can be used to control softsynths. Now, why did no one ever mention this before?

I have, endlessly: Cakewalk is the company, and the sequencer/DAW programs are Sonar Producer/Studio (the most elaborate) down through Sonar Home Studio. You can see them at:

http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/DAWs.asp

I specifically recommended Home Studio for you to try at one time, to incorporate some of the soft synths. You got angry at me for trying to make you work another way. But that is all in the past, it feels like the summer of love again. If you decide to try any of these out, I have a long history with the Cakewalk products and would be glad to offer tips.

Cheers,
Jon

Hi Gene (and Jon),

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Gene,
>
> {you wrote...}
> > Wow, MODI event list sounds as if I could use Cakewalk,
> > and I guess it can be used to control softsynths. Now,
> > why did no one ever mention this before?
>
> I have, endlessly: Cakewalk is the company, and the
> sequencer/DAW programs are Sonar Producer/Studio (the most
> elaborate) down through Sonar Home Studio. You can see them at:
>
> http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/DAWs.asp
>
> I specifically recommended Home Studio for you to try at
> one time, to incorporate some of the soft synths. You got
> angry at me for trying to make you work another way. But
> that is all in the past, it feels like the summer of love
> again. If you decide to try any of these out, I have a
> long history with the Cakewalk products and would be glad
> to offer tips.

I too, have a long history with Cakewalk ... until about
two years ago, that is, when i switched to using my own
Tonescape full-time for composing. ;-)

And i've spent countless hours editing MIDI files in the
MIDI Event List window of Cakewalk, because that's the
easiest way to specify pitch-bends. Here's the method i
used to use for microtonal music:

1) enter the closest 12-edo note on either the Staff view
or Piano-roll view;

2) enter another very low or very high note along with
each of the "real" notes, i.e., making each one a 2-note
chord; it was useful for me to keep this second "note"
at the same very high or very low pitch to make it easy
to find and edit later in the Event List view;

3) go into Event List view, change the tick value of each
of those very high or very low notes by one tick less
(so that it will precede each actual Note-on by one tick)
by pressing the "minus" key on the keyboard numbered keypad,
then change each MIDI message from "Note-on" to "Pitch bend".

Of course, it was always necessary to have a table handy
which listed all the necessary pitch-bend values. And it
was tedious to do things this way too, but at least it worked.

I also wrote micro.cal, a small Cakewalk Application Language
(i.e., "CAL") program to make it easier to enter JI pitches
into Cakewalk:

http://www.sonic-arts.org/monzo/micro/micro.htm

It uses Ellis's (of Helmholtz fame) augmented bimodulus
method of calculating cents to come within 2 cents accuracy
of any JI pitch. You simply enter the ratio of the note
you want and micro.cal pops it into your Cakewalk score.

The version of Cakewalk which i used forever was 9.03
... from what i've read it seems that the newer Cakewalk
products no longer support CAL.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:

> I specifically recommended Home Studio for you to try at one time, to
incorporate some of the soft synths. You got angry at me for trying to
make you work another way.

I got angry because I thought you were telling me to work with
something other than text-based control.

Monz,

{you wrote...}
>... from what i've read it seems that the newer Cakewalk products no longer support CAL.

Not true. And you don't have to spend even one precious nanosecond of your life entering pitch bends if you use a soft instrument that itself is microtunable. Welcome to the new world that's been here for a few years already...

Cheers,
Jon

Gene,

{you wrote...}
>I got angry because I thought you were telling me to work with something other than text-based control.

The point being that it is hardly something to be angry about. I'm still not sure it is a path that would be good for you, but there *are* demos that you can download and try, etc. Just something to think about...

Cheers,
Jon

Jon, Monz,

> ... And you don't have to spend even one precious nanosecond
> of your life entering pitch bends if you use a soft instrument
> that itself is microtunable.

And don't forget Fractal Tune Smithy... :-)

Rick

Hi Jon,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:

> Monz,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >... from what i've read it seems that the newer
> > Cakewalk products no longer support CAL.
>
> Not true.

Thanks ... i could have sworn that i just read recently
in Wikipedia that SONAR doesn't support CAL, but i see
now that it says exactly the opposite.

> And you don't have to spend even one precious
> nanosecond of your life entering pitch bends if you use
> a soft instrument that itself is microtunable. Welcome
> to the new world that's been here for a few years already...

As you and everyone else should know by now, my head
has been buried in the Tonescape sand for a few years,
so i haven't learned anything about microtunable softsynths.
Hopefully i'll find time somewhere to rectify that.

But anyway, i already don't have to spend one precious
nanosecond to enter pitch bends, because i use Tonescape
all the time now, and any tuning i want lies right
before my eyes ready for use, with all the microtonal
stuff done by the computer.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Monz,

{you wrote...}
>As you and everyone else should know by now, my head has been buried in the Tonescape sand for a few years, so i haven't learned anything about microtunable softsynths. Hopefully i'll find time somewhere to rectify that.

Hope so - if for no other reason than understanding the other competitors in the music-making arena.

>... with all the microtonal stuff done by the computer.

As it should be. When ever you get beyond a piano roll for an input interface, be sure to let us know. That is when I'll begin to get interested.

Cheers,
Jon

Hi Jon,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:

> >... with all the microtonal stuff done by the computer.
>
> As it should be. When ever you get beyond a piano roll
> for an input interface, be sure to let us know. That is
> when I'll begin to get interested.

Well ... we call it "Pitch-Height", because to describe it
as "piano roll" is only "close but no cigar" -- unless
you're using Tonescape with a 12-edo tuning.

I'm not deliberately dancing around your point: i know
that you're talking about having MIDI input from a controller
that you can play like a regular instrument. And no, we
don't have that yet, and i can't say how soon we will.

But i do want to emphasize how nice composing a microtonal
piece with a piano-roll-style window is, when the "piano roll"
is quantized to visually reflect the size of the spaces
between notes, especially when it's an unevenly-spaced
tuning or scale.

I've been doing serious work lately on creating .tonescape
files of symphonic works from the standard repertoire,
tuned in a 31-tone chain of 1/6-comma meantone, and
i'll tell you, it's lovely to be able within about
10 minutes or so, to get used to exactly where the notes
of such a large tuning fall on the Pitch-Height notation,
because of the uneven spacing. I can distinguish between
Dx or E or Fb very quickly because each one looks unique.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
> >> I specifically recommended Home Studio for you to try at one time, to > incorporate some of the soft synths. You got angry at me for trying to > make you work another way. > > I got angry because I thought you were telling me to work with > something other than text-based control. It's not something you can control from a text file; you still have a GUI to deal with. The event list is just a table with each event on a row, and a toolbar for commonly used commands like "insert event" and "delete event". You can paste pitch bend numbers directly into it, though, if that helps.