More soul

Yow...I never would have dreamed that the mention of the word soul would cause such a ruckus. After seeing the responses, and reflecting on the subject, I have a few comments that I think are relevant. First, Mr. Wolf, I say again...please keep your responses to my posts on the forum, much appreciated. I did read the private email you sent, and I must say, for whatever personal reasons you may have, you totally, 100%, took what I said and turned it into something I did not intend. Now, a few words on soul...

I actually had a marvelous insight while thinking about all this...I realized, that I am most likely coming from a much different background in many ways than a lot of the folks on this (and the tuning) forum. When we look at the background of the so called microtonal movement in European/American culture, we find that a lot of the impetus comes from musicians with a classical background...Easley Blackwood, Wendy Carlos, Alois Haba, Julian Carillo, Johnny Reinhard, Lou Harrison, Charles Ives, Ben Johnston, Ezra Sims, Edgar Varese, Ivan Wyschnegradsky...I think it's pretty self evident. And, I think that's probably true of a lot of the folks on the list who have been posting over the years as well...and of course, I am being general here....but, I think it's fair to say that most of the familiar folks who contribute to the forums are not blues, soul, country, folk, rock, or flamenco oriented musicians. Sure, maybe they play these styles occasionally, but overall, the basic background of many folks into the micro thing is classical.

Well, not so with me...in my 41 years of playing guitar, I started with rock, got into blues, then fusion, bebop, country, flamenco, and just about every subgenre of American roots/popular music. And, of course, I have played classical guitar for 30 years, and deeply love all the great maestros of that field as well. But, my roots are in another direction from many people who are into microtonality, and that helps explain why some folks may get a bit miffed when words such as soul are used...they just don't have the background to understand what I'm trying to say. I really got into non 12 tunings about 1989, when John Starrett gave me a 19 tone guitar he had made...and, the first tune I wrote in 19 was a blues. I've also written country, heavy rock, funk, jazz, space music, and other music that may not fit into any particular genre name. And, as I've discovered, there's not much non 12 music written in those fields. So, the word soul has many deep meanings for me, since it is an integral part of the musics I've played for many years.

For example, the word soul basically describes a whole genre of American music...James Brown was known as the Godfather of Soul; Aretha Franklin was the Queen of Soul; "Sweet Soul Music" by Arthur Conley was a tribute to all the great soul singers, like Joe Tex, Wilson Pickett, Otis Redding, and Brown; "I'm a Soul Man," by Sam and Dave, says it all right in the title; and, one of the James Brown tunes I've been listening to lately says "I've Got Soul, and I'm Super Bad." And, when you get into flamenco, the word duende is very very important to any understanding of the genre. Basically, it too means soul, the deep feeling that is necessary for the making of the greatest flamenco music. And, the word is constantly used by afficinados to talk about, say, a singer's performance...if the duende was present, then it was a memorable performance; if not, then it wasn't worth much. Paco de Lucia once referred to Jimi Hendrix as "that divine crazy man; he had true duende" (this was in Guitar Player mag). And, I've read of extraordinary things happening when a singer was really singing with duende...people weeping, tearing at their clothes, basically having deep deep emotional experiences.

And, when you study the lives of the great bluesmen (and women), the word soul is constantly in use...does an artist have it, or not? For example, Little Richard's great hit "Tutti Frutti" was later recorded by Pat Boone, and it is one of the most ridiculous performances in musical history...because poor Pat did NOT have any soul when he sang it. And, of course, one of the greatest insults in blues is if you tell someone that they're playing like a white guy (and you better have your sense of humor when I say that). The concept of swing, which is absolutely essential to blues, jazz, and funk, is a way of playing rhythmically that is TOTALLY unlike anything found in the European classical tradition...no doubt about it. It comes, essentially, from African and Middle Eastern roots, and is why black folks are the inventors of those genres, and often the greatest practicioners...just check out the pantheon of jazz and blues greats, it's all there. And, it is often a very difficult concept for classical musicians to get. One of the funniest things you can hear is, say in a Symphony Pops concert, where the orchestra is doing a jazz standard, and they may give the 1st violinist a solo...I've heard this numerous times, and it isn't pretty.

So, I think the point is made. I use the word soul, because of my extensive background playing music where the word is a very basic part of what the music is all about, at the most fundamental level. And, my brilliant teacher George Keith often used to say that Bach was the first bebop musician (I've heard other musicians say that as well)...and, I think that's absolutely true, but from a harmonic sense, because the swing wasn't there. But, I've often imagined that old Bach would have been a killer jazz and blues pianist. And Mozart would have been a great punk rocker; he had the right temperament (no pun intended). Maybe this helps...I will continue to advocate that all artists/theorists, regardless of background or stylistic choices, be as soulful as possible. Because, without that quality of duende, it's too easy to be "talking loud and saying nothing," which is another great James Brown tune...best to all....Hstick

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Neil,

Love all the guys you mention---and like I said, I understand what you
mean...however, I'm also not a believer in the afterlife, etc. so my
comments were more specific to that.

I like 'duende' and 'feeling' and other words more---I love the word
'pathos' in particular, esp. in playing Beethoven and Mozart.

My over-riding point was that if words were enough to describe music,
why have music? I think music goes beyond words, beyond silence.
"After silence that which comes nearest to expressing the
inexpressible is music", Wittgenstein said. It's better to do music
than discuss it, I feel, unless you are talking technical aspects
which are somewhat more objective. But, that's just my opinion.

About 'white and black' in music--I think those types of labels are
unfortunate. Miles Davis did a lot of damage propgating the myth that
whites don't pay jazz well (expect Bill Evans, he would say), and that
Black players who he didn't like, he accused of being 'white'. Miles
Davis' autobiography just made me pissed off at him for being such a
dirty racist. He didn't like Oscar P., but no-one swings harder than
Oscar! I wonder what he would say about Brad Meldau, a white guy and
one of the great current jazz minds. An inventor and a feeler.

I've seen some pretty stiff and lifeless performers of all races and
nationalities, and I guess I don't like race-centric and ethno-centric
arguments about who has sould or swings or what-have-you.

P.S. my favorite James Brown groove is 'Mother Popcorn'. I also love
'For Goodness Sakes, Just look at those cakes'

Best,
Aaron.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, <microstick@...> wrote:
>
> Yow...I never would have dreamed that the mention of the word
soul would cause such a ruckus. After seeing the responses, and
reflecting on the subject, I have a few comments that I think are
relevant. First, Mr. Wolf, I say again...please keep your responses to
my posts on the forum, much appreciated. I did read the private email
you sent, and I must say, for whatever personal reasons you may have,
you totally, 100%, took what I said and turned it into something I did
not intend. Now, a few words on soul...
>
> I actually had a marvelous insight while thinking about all
this...I realized, that I am most likely coming from a much different
background in many ways than a lot of the folks on this (and the
tuning) forum. When we look at the background of the so called
microtonal movement in European/American culture, we find that a lot
of the impetus comes from musicians with a classical
background...Easley Blackwood, Wendy Carlos, Alois Haba, Julian
Carillo, Johnny Reinhard, Lou Harrison, Charles Ives, Ben Johnston,
Ezra Sims, Edgar Varese, Ivan Wyschnegradsky...I think it's pretty
self evident. And, I think that's probably true of a lot of the folks
on the list who have been posting over the years as well...and of
course, I am being general here....but, I think it's fair to say that
most of the familiar folks who contribute to the forums are not blues,
soul, country, folk, rock, or flamenco oriented musicians. Sure, maybe
they play these styles occasionally, but overall, the basic background
of many folks into the micro thing is classical.
>
> Well, not so with me...in my 41 years of playing guitar, I
started with rock, got into blues, then fusion, bebop, country,
flamenco, and just about every subgenre of American roots/popular
music. And, of course, I have played classical guitar for 30 years,
and deeply love all the great maestros of that field as well. But, my
roots are in another direction from many people who are into
microtonality, and that helps explain why some folks may get a bit
miffed when words such as soul are used...they just don't have the
background to understand what I'm trying to say. I really got into non
12 tunings about 1989, when John Starrett gave me a 19 tone guitar he
had made...and, the first tune I wrote in 19 was a blues. I've also
written country, heavy rock, funk, jazz, space music, and other music
that may not fit into any particular genre name. And, as I've
discovered, there's not much non 12 music written in those fields. So,
the word soul has many deep meanings for me, since it is an integral
part of the musics I've played for many years.
>
> For example, the word soul basically describes a whole genre of
American music...James Brown was known as the Godfather of Soul;
Aretha Franklin was the Queen of Soul; "Sweet Soul Music" by Arthur
Conley was a tribute to all the great soul singers, like Joe Tex,
Wilson Pickett, Otis Redding, and Brown; "I'm a Soul Man," by Sam and
Dave, says it all right in the title; and, one of the James Brown
tunes I've been listening to lately says "I've Got Soul, and I'm Super
Bad." And, when you get into flamenco, the word duende is very very
important to any understanding of the genre. Basically, it too means
soul, the deep feeling that is necessary for the making of the
greatest flamenco music. And, the word is constantly used by
afficinados to talk about, say, a singer's performance...if the duende
was present, then it was a memorable performance; if not, then it
wasn't worth much. Paco de Lucia once referred to Jimi Hendrix as
"that divine crazy man; he had true duende" (this was in Guitar Player
mag). And, I've read of extraordinary things happening when a singer
was really singing with duende...people weeping, tearing at their
clothes, basically having deep deep emotional experiences.
>
> And, when you study the lives of the great bluesmen (and women),
the word soul is constantly in use...does an artist have it, or not?
For example, Little Richard's great hit "Tutti Frutti" was later
recorded by Pat Boone, and it is one of the most ridiculous
performances in musical history...because poor Pat did NOT have any
soul when he sang it. And, of course, one of the greatest insults in
blues is if you tell someone that they're playing like a white guy
(and you better have your sense of humor when I say that). The concept
of swing, which is absolutely essential to blues, jazz, and funk, is a
way of playing rhythmically that is TOTALLY unlike anything found in
the European classical tradition...no doubt about it. It comes,
essentially, from African and Middle Eastern roots, and is why black
folks are the inventors of those genres, and often the greatest
practicioners...just check out the pantheon of jazz and blues greats,
it's all there. And, it is often a very difficult concept for
classical musicians to get. One of the funniest things you can hear
is, say in a Symphony Pops concert, where the orchestra is doing a
jazz standard, and they may give the 1st violinist a solo...I've heard
this numerous times, and it isn't pretty.
>
> So, I think the point is made. I use the word soul, because of my
extensive background playing music where the word is a very basic part
of what the music is all about, at the most fundamental level. And, my
brilliant teacher George Keith often used to say that Bach was the
first bebop musician (I've heard other musicians say that as
well)...and, I think that's absolutely true, but from a harmonic
sense, because the swing wasn't there. But, I've often imagined that
old Bach would have been a killer jazz and blues pianist. And Mozart
would have been a great punk rocker; he had the right temperament (no
pun intended). Maybe this helps...I will continue to advocate that all
artists/theorists, regardless of background or stylistic choices, be
as soulful as possible. Because, without that quality of duende, it's
too easy to be "talking loud and saying nothing," which is another
great James Brown tune...best to all....Hstick
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

thanks, Neil. Very nicely put.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, <microstick@...> wrote:
>
> Yow...I never would have dreamed that the mention of the word
soul would cause such a ruckus. After seeing the responses, and
reflecting on the subject, I have a few comments that I think are
relevant. First, Mr. Wolf, I say again...please keep your responses
to my posts on the forum, much appreciated. I did read the private
email you sent, and I must say, for whatever personal reasons you may
have, you totally, 100%, took what I said and turned it into
something I did not intend. Now, a few words on soul...
>
> I actually had a marvelous insight while thinking about all
this...I realized, that I am most likely coming from a much different
background in many ways than a lot of the folks on this (and the
tuning) forum. When we look at the background of the so called
microtonal movement in European/American culture, we find that a lot
of the impetus comes from musicians with a classical
background...Easley Blackwood, Wendy Carlos, Alois Haba, Julian
Carillo, Johnny Reinhard, Lou Harrison, Charles Ives, Ben Johnston,
Ezra Sims, Edgar Varese, Ivan Wyschnegradsky...I think it's pretty
self evident. And, I think that's probably true of a lot of the folks
on the list who have been posting over the years as well...and of
course, I am being general here....but, I think it's fair to say that
most of the familiar folks who contribute to the forums are not
blues, soul, country, folk, rock, or flamenco oriented musicians.
Sure, maybe they play these styles occasionally, but overall, the
basic background of many folks into the micro thing is classical.
>
> Well, not so with me...in my 41 years of playing guitar, I
started with rock, got into blues, then fusion, bebop, country,
flamenco, and just about every subgenre of American roots/popular
music. And, of course, I have played classical guitar for 30 years,
and deeply love all the great maestros of that field as well. But, my
roots are in another direction from many people who are into
microtonality, and that helps explain why some folks may get a bit
miffed when words such as soul are used...they just don't have the
background to understand what I'm trying to say. I really got into
non 12 tunings about 1989, when John Starrett gave me a 19 tone
guitar he had made...and, the first tune I wrote in 19 was a blues.
I've also written country, heavy rock, funk, jazz, space music, and
other music that may not fit into any particular genre name. And, as
I've discovered, there's not much non 12 music written in those
fields. So, the word soul has many deep meanings for me, since it is
an integral part of the musics I've played for many years.
>
> For example, the word soul basically describes a whole genre of
American music...James Brown was known as the Godfather of Soul;
Aretha Franklin was the Queen of Soul; "Sweet Soul Music" by Arthur
Conley was a tribute to all the great soul singers, like Joe Tex,
Wilson Pickett, Otis Redding, and Brown; "I'm a Soul Man," by Sam and
Dave, says it all right in the title; and, one of the James Brown
tunes I've been listening to lately says "I've Got Soul, and I'm
Super Bad." And, when you get into flamenco, the word duende is very
very important to any understanding of the genre. Basically, it too
means soul, the deep feeling that is necessary for the making of the
greatest flamenco music. And, the word is constantly used by
afficinados to talk about, say, a singer's performance...if the
duende was present, then it was a memorable performance; if not, then
it wasn't worth much. Paco de Lucia once referred to Jimi Hendrix
as "that divine crazy man; he had true duende" (this was in Guitar
Player mag). And, I've read of extraordinary things happening when a
singer was really singing with duende...people weeping, tearing at
their clothes, basically having deep deep emotional experiences.
>
> And, when you study the lives of the great bluesmen (and women),
the word soul is constantly in use...does an artist have it, or not?
For example, Little Richard's great hit "Tutti Frutti" was later
recorded by Pat Boone, and it is one of the most ridiculous
performances in musical history...because poor Pat did NOT have any
soul when he sang it. And, of course, one of the greatest insults in
blues is if you tell someone that they're playing like a white guy
(and you better have your sense of humor when I say that). The
concept of swing, which is absolutely essential to blues, jazz, and
funk, is a way of playing rhythmically that is TOTALLY unlike
anything found in the European classical tradition...no doubt about
it. It comes, essentially, from African and Middle Eastern roots, and
is why black folks are the inventors of those genres, and often the
greatest practicioners...just check out the pantheon of jazz and
blues greats, it's all there. And, it is often a very difficult
concept for classical musicians to get. One of the funniest things
you can hear is, say in a Symphony Pops concert, where the orchestra
is doing a jazz standard, and they may give the 1st violinist a
solo...I've heard this numerous times, and it isn't pretty.
>
> So, I think the point is made. I use the word soul, because of
my extensive background playing music where the word is a very basic
part of what the music is all about, at the most fundamental level.
And, my brilliant teacher George Keith often used to say that Bach
was the first bebop musician (I've heard other musicians say that as
well)...and, I think that's absolutely true, but from a harmonic
sense, because the swing wasn't there. But, I've often imagined that
old Bach would have been a killer jazz and blues pianist. And Mozart
would have been a great punk rocker; he had the right temperament (no
pun intended). Maybe this helps...I will continue to advocate that
all artists/theorists, regardless of background or stylistic choices,
be as soulful as possible. Because, without that quality of duende,
it's too easy to be "talking loud and saying nothing," which is
another great James Brown tune...best to all....Hstick
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I would say the roots of soul are in other places at well.
Listen to the string players of Turkestan as just one example. and all that American black music you can find it in Africa. and flamenco music you can find in the music of north Africa or in the jews that are very largely responsible for that style of singing.
in turn all of these places have been influenced by other cultures.
Soul is meaningless unless it is recognized as universal and the root in music everywhere.
Look at a film like Latcho drom following the music of the Gypsies from India to Spain and tell me where soul starts or stops

Robin Perry wrote:
> thanks, Neil. Very nicely put.
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, <microstick@...> wrote:
> >> Yow...I never would have dreamed that the mention of the word >> > soul would cause such a ruckus. After seeing the responses, and > reflecting on the subject, I have a few comments that I think are > relevant. First, Mr. Wolf, I say again...please keep your responses > to my posts on the forum, much appreciated. I did read the private > email you sent, and I must say, for whatever personal reasons you may > have, you totally, 100%, took what I said and turned it into > something I did not intend. Now, a few words on soul...
> >> >> I actually had a marvelous insight while thinking about all >> > this...I realized, that I am most likely coming from a much different > background in many ways than a lot of the folks on this (and the > tuning) forum. When we look at the background of the so called > microtonal movement in European/American culture, we find that a lot > of the impetus comes from musicians with a classical > background...Easley Blackwood, Wendy Carlos, Alois Haba, Julian > Carillo, Johnny Reinhard, Lou Harrison, Charles Ives, Ben Johnston, > Ezra Sims, Edgar Varese, Ivan Wyschnegradsky...I think it's pretty > self evident. And, I think that's probably true of a lot of the folks > on the list who have been posting over the years as well...and of > course, I am being general here....but, I think it's fair to say that > most of the familiar folks who contribute to the forums are not > blues, soul, country, folk, rock, or flamenco oriented musicians. > Sure, maybe they play these styles occasionally, but overall, the > basic background of many folks into the micro thing is classical.
> >> Well, not so with me...in my 41 years of playing guitar, I >> > started with rock, got into blues, then fusion, bebop, country, > flamenco, and just about every subgenre of American roots/popular > music. And, of course, I have played classical guitar for 30 years, > and deeply love all the great maestros of that field as well. But, my > roots are in another direction from many people who are into > microtonality, and that helps explain why some folks may get a bit > miffed when words such as soul are used...they just don't have the > background to understand what I'm trying to say. I really got into > non 12 tunings about 1989, when John Starrett gave me a 19 tone > guitar he had made...and, the first tune I wrote in 19 was a blues. > I've also written country, heavy rock, funk, jazz, space music, and > other music that may not fit into any particular genre name. And, as > I've discovered, there's not much non 12 music written in those > fields. So, the word soul has many deep meanings for me, since it is > an integral part of the musics I've played for many years.
> >> For example, the word soul basically describes a whole genre of >> > American music...James Brown was known as the Godfather of Soul; > Aretha Franklin was the Queen of Soul; "Sweet Soul Music" by Arthur > Conley was a tribute to all the great soul singers, like Joe Tex, > Wilson Pickett, Otis Redding, and Brown; "I'm a Soul Man," by Sam and > Dave, says it all right in the title; and, one of the James Brown > tunes I've been listening to lately says "I've Got Soul, and I'm > Super Bad." And, when you get into flamenco, the word duende is very > very important to any understanding of the genre. Basically, it too > means soul, the deep feeling that is necessary for the making of the > greatest flamenco music. And, the word is constantly used by > afficinados to talk about, say, a singer's performance...if the > duende was present, then it was a memorable performance; if not, then > it wasn't worth much. Paco de Lucia once referred to Jimi Hendrix > as "that divine crazy man; he had true duende" (this was in Guitar > Player mag). And, I've read of extraordinary things happening when a > singer was really singing with duende...people weeping, tearing at > their clothes, basically having deep deep emotional experiences.
> >> And, when you study the lives of the great bluesmen (and women), >> > the word soul is constantly in use...does an artist have it, or not? > For example, Little Richard's great hit "Tutti Frutti" was later > recorded by Pat Boone, and it is one of the most ridiculous > performances in musical history...because poor Pat did NOT have any > soul when he sang it. And, of course, one of the greatest insults in > blues is if you tell someone that they're playing like a white guy > (and you better have your sense of humor when I say that). The > concept of swing, which is absolutely essential to blues, jazz, and > funk, is a way of playing rhythmically that is TOTALLY unlike > anything found in the European classical tradition...no doubt about > it. It comes, essentially, from African and Middle Eastern roots, and > is why black folks are the inventors of those genres, and often the > greatest practicioners...just check out the pantheon of jazz and > blues greats, it's all there. And, it is often a very difficult > concept for classical musicians to get. One of the funniest things > you can hear is, say in a Symphony Pops concert, where the orchestra > is doing a jazz standard, and they may give the 1st violinist a > solo...I've heard this numerous times, and it isn't pretty.
> >> So, I think the point is made. I use the word soul, because of >> > my extensive background playing music where the word is a very basic > part of what the music is all about, at the most fundamental level. > And, my brilliant teacher George Keith often used to say that Bach > was the first bebop musician (I've heard other musicians say that as > well)...and, I think that's absolutely true, but from a harmonic > sense, because the swing wasn't there. But, I've often imagined that > old Bach would have been a killer jazz and blues pianist. And Mozart > would have been a great punk rocker; he had the right temperament (no > pun intended). Maybe this helps...I will continue to advocate that > all artists/theorists, regardless of background or stylistic choices, > be as soulful as possible. Because, without that quality of duende, > it's too easy to be "talking loud and saying nothing," which is > another great James Brown tune...best to all....Hstick
> >> >>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>> >
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, <microstick@...> wrote:

> But, I've often imagined that old Bach would have been a killer jazz
and blues pianist.

Oh yes indeed.

> And Mozart would have been a great punk rocker; he had the right >
temperament (no pun intended).

He also once fainted when a trumpet played a wrong note. I have my
doubts.