non-12 bitonality

Listening to some Milhaud last night, (a cool piece called the Protée
suite for orchestra) I came to a recurring question for me---is
12-equal special in it's ability to really sound good when using
bitonality a la Milhaud, or are there other tunings that would sound
good too?

My brief exporations in this area have left me somewhat disappointed
with the prospects for bitonal music in non-12, but maybe someone else
can point out some useful examples of this? It could also be something
we might think at first sounds like $%^&, then get used to, after al,
many people resond that way to 12-equal bitonality...

Thoughts?

Best,
Aaron.

At 09:27 PM 12/14/2006, you wrote:
>
>Listening to some Milhaud last night, (a cool piece called the Protee
>suite for orchestra) I came to a recurring question for me---is
>12-equal special in it's ability to really sound good when using
>bitonality a la Milhaud, or are there other tunings that would sound
>good too?

Was it a bitonal piece? Only a minority of Milhaud's stuff is
polytonal. A lot of his stuff is big on 9ths, which are one of
the most overlooked resources of 12-tET IMO. It's one of the
reasons I like Milhaud, Honnegar, Hindemith (though I don't really
like him for other reasons), Cowell (one of the greatest composers
ever, in my book), and the band Yes.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> At 09:27 PM 12/14/2006, you wrote:
> >
> >Listening to some Milhaud last night, (a cool piece called the
Protee
> >suite for orchestra) I came to a recurring question for me---is
> >12-equal special in it's ability to really sound good when using
> >bitonality a la Milhaud, or are there other tunings that would
sound
> >good too?
>
> Was it a bitonal piece? Only a minority of Milhaud's stuff is
> polytonal. A lot of his stuff is big on 9ths, which are one of
> the most overlooked resources of 12-tET IMO. It's one of the
> reasons I like Milhaud, Honnegar, Hindemith (though I don't really
> like him for other reasons), Cowell (one of the greatest composers
> ever, in my book), and the band Yes.
>
> -Carl

Is bitonality in the ear of the beholder? I remember my composition
prof. telling me that I kept doing bitonality, when it just seemed
liked ninths to me. Is parallel organum bitonal? It works fine in 12-
EDO, which is actually a good Pythagorean tuning.

The way I see it, genuine bitonality is difficult to do in 12-EDO,
and outside of extreme examples where two or more tonics are really
hammered in by accent, orchestration and repetition, bitonality is
usually only percieved as such by people who are listening to
what "should be" rather than to what actually "is". The "unified
field" and perpetuum mobile nature of 12-EDO makes most "bitonality"
more of a bas-relief (and attractive) kind of effect, IMO.

True tonality come from relationships between partials, so an
example of genuine bitonality would be two JI tunings based on
distant, dissonant, or unrelated tonics. This is a very, er,
vigorous :-) effect.

-Cameron Bobro

>Is bitonality in the ear of the beholder? I remember my composition
>prof. telling me that I kept doing bitonality, when it just seemed
>liked ninths to me.

To some extent, I'm sure. I've heard Milhaud, though, that was
clearly polytonal, or at least different from some other Milhaud
I've heard.

>Is parallel organum bitonal?

I'd say no.

>The way I see it, genuine bitonality is difficult to do in 12-EDO,

Four-hands piano music is a natural.

>True tonality come from relationships between partials, so an
>example of genuine bitonality would be two JI tunings based on
>distant, dissonant, or unrelated tonics. This is a very, er,
>vigorous :-) effect.

Sounds yummy. But in 12-tET I think it's possible too.
Left hand in E Major and Right hand in Bb Major, ought to
do it.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:

>
> I've heard Milhaud, though, that was
> clearly polytonal, or at least different from some other Milhaud
> I've heard.

Yes, I think he pulls it off. The polytonal piece I heard years ago
was so pleasant and ordinary sounding to me that I wonder if I'd
have even noticed if I hadn't been forewarned.
>
> >Is parallel organum bitonal?
>
> I'd say no.

Rhetorical question, kind of. :-) I don't find it "bitonal" either-
chorally of course you've got the accented-overtones effect and it
doesn't sound bitonal at all.

> Left hand in E Major and Right hand in Bb Major, ought to
> do it.

If each key is insistent, yes of course. But in a moderne tall-chord
kind of environment I think you'd have to be careful of the I of E
over the V of Bb for example.

There is, or was, a Balkan folk artform involving singing two
completely different folksongs at the same time, which I've only
heard once in an old field recording (Romania). Sounded wonderful.

-Cameron Bobro

Only a minority of Milhaud's stuff is
> > polytonal. A lot of his stuff is big on 9ths,
>
> Is bitonality in the ear of the beholder? I remember my composition
> prof. telling me that I kept doing bitonality, when it just seemed
> liked ninths to me.

I think Milhaud wrote about this himself in an early article, in his book that I know I have
somewhere but couldn't find just now (sorry!).
If my memory serves me right, he gives examples of polychords and warns that if you put a g
minor chord on top of a C major chord it's hard to hear this as bitonal since it's a C 9 chord.

As to non-12-ET bitonality, I've experimented with bitonal just intonation, with sonorous
major chords in the bottom and modal melodic or chordal material on the top, with large
timbral and registral separation. I used an undecimal harmonic relation, among others
(bottom: 1/1 major, top: pentatonic or major scale built on 11/8).

Erling Wold has done similar, and more complicated things in his music.

jn

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Cameron Bobro"
<misterbobro@...> wrote:

> There is, or was, a Balkan folk artform involving singing two
> completely different folksongs at the same time, which I've only
> heard once in an old field recording (Romania). Sounded wonderful.

That sounds cool! Why does so much good music come from that region?
Is it the food/air/climate, soup recipes?

I'm a sucker for assymmetrical additive rhythms, too, which that music
has a-plenty!

> -Cameron Bobro
>

however one perceives it, milhaud wrote in several keys at once.

i wasn't really asking whether he really was bitonal or not. i've
played his piano music and i know that it is...;)

i'm not talking about parallel ninths or organum. i'm talking about,
say, Gb major against Eb major...the rest is semantics.

i was more asking if anyone did anything analogous in non-12
*successfully* (which is of course a subjective call)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Cameron Bobro"
<misterbobro@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@> wrote:
> >
> > At 09:27 PM 12/14/2006, you wrote:
> > >
> > >Listening to some Milhaud last night, (a cool piece called the
> Protee
> > >suite for orchestra) I came to a recurring question for me---is
> > >12-equal special in it's ability to really sound good when using
> > >bitonality a la Milhaud, or are there other tunings that would
> sound
> > >good too?
> >
> > Was it a bitonal piece? Only a minority of Milhaud's stuff is
> > polytonal. A lot of his stuff is big on 9ths, which are one of
> > the most overlooked resources of 12-tET IMO. It's one of the
> > reasons I like Milhaud, Honnegar, Hindemith (though I don't really
> > like him for other reasons), Cowell (one of the greatest composers
> > ever, in my book), and the band Yes.
> >
> > -Carl
>
> Is bitonality in the ear of the beholder? I remember my composition
> prof. telling me that I kept doing bitonality, when it just seemed
> liked ninths to me. Is parallel organum bitonal? It works fine in 12-
> EDO, which is actually a good Pythagorean tuning.
>
> The way I see it, genuine bitonality is difficult to do in 12-EDO,
> and outside of extreme examples where two or more tonics are really
> hammered in by accent, orchestration and repetition, bitonality is
> usually only percieved as such by people who are listening to
> what "should be" rather than to what actually "is". The "unified
> field" and perpetuum mobile nature of 12-EDO makes most "bitonality"
> more of a bas-relief (and attractive) kind of effect, IMO.
>
> True tonality come from relationships between partials, so an
> example of genuine bitonality would be two JI tunings based on
> distant, dissonant, or unrelated tonics. This is a very, er,
> vigorous :-) effect.
>
> -Cameron Bobro
>

>There is, or was, a Balkan folk artform involving singing two
>completely different folksongs at the same time, which I've only
>heard once in an old field recording (Romania). Sounded wonderful.

Delightful. In Bach's time there was the Quodlibet, but I
think the tunes were typically sung in the same key.

-Carl

Speaking of "bitonality" in non 12-tet.

A few years ago in 1999, Gamelan Sekara Jaya (a local SF Bay Area
institution, http://www.gsj.org) did a collaboration with Club Foot
Orchestra () where they had a gamelan group and a western chamber ensemble
playing together in a new score for an old silent film shot in Bali. It was
quite interesting. I attended two performances and am lucky enough to have
one of their "live field recording" CDs... but it's been available on DVD
for a while now.

Certainly that is the largest piece I've ever heard for two completely
differently tuned groups of instruments.

Rick

Debussy too

Carl Lumma wrote:
> At 09:27 PM 12/14/2006, you wrote:
> >> Listening to some Milhaud last night, (a cool piece called the Protee
>> suite for orchestra) I came to a recurring question for me---is
>> 12-equal special in it's ability to really sound good when using
>> bitonality a la Milhaud, or are there other tunings that would sound
>> good too?
>> >
> Was it a bitonal piece? Only a minority of Milhaud's stuff is
> polytonal. A lot of his stuff is big on 9ths, which are one of
> the most overlooked resources of 12-tET IMO. It's one of the
> reasons I like Milhaud, Honnegar, Hindemith (though I don't really
> like him for other reasons), Cowell (one of the greatest composers
> ever, in my book), and the band Yes.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Milhauds Creation of the World ends wit ha polytonal dixieland fugue that clearly is so andquite a signature forthe composer.

Carl Lumma wrote:
>> Is bitonality in the ear of the beholder? I remember my composition >> prof. telling me that I kept doing bitonality, when it just seemed >> liked ninths to me.
>> >
> To some extent, I'm sure. I've heard Milhaud, though, that was
> clearly polytonal, or at least different from some other Milhaud
> I've heard.
>
> >> Is parallel organum bitonal?
>> >
> I'd say no.
>
> >> The way I see it, genuine bitonality is difficult to do in 12-EDO, >> >
> Four-hands piano music is a natural.
>
> >> True tonality come from relationships between partials, so an >> example of genuine bitonality would be two JI tunings based on >> distant, dissonant, or unrelated tonics. This is a very, er, >> vigorous :-) effect.
>> >
> Sounds yummy. But in 12-tET I think it's possible too.
> Left hand in E Major and Right hand in Bb Major, ought to
> do it.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

how about two diamonds a fifth apart of other interval.
the former gives us all these repeated tetrachords

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> Listening to some Milhaud last night, (a cool piece called the Prot�e
> suite for orchestra) I came to a recurring question for me---is
> 12-equal special in it's ability to really sound good when using
> bitonality a la Milhaud, or are there other tunings that would sound
> good too?
>
> My brief exporations in this area have left me somewhat disappointed
> with the prospects for bitonal music in non-12, but maybe someone else
> can point out some useful examples of this? It could also be something
> we might think at first sounds like $%^&, then get used to, after al,
> many people resond that way to 12-equal bitonality...
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Best,
> Aaron.
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Krister Johnson"
<aaron@...> wrote:
>
>
> Listening to some Milhaud last night, (a cool piece called the Protée
> suite for orchestra) I came to a recurring question for me---is
> 12-equal special in it's ability to really sound good when using
> bitonality a la Milhaud, or are there other tunings that would sound
> good too?

Any system (including 12 and 34) which supports pajara has a natural
way of getting bitonality, because pajara tends towards a C-F# sort of
bitonality if you use the symmetrical MOS modes. This is a general
characteristic of systems where the period is 1/2 octave.

At 10:51 AM 12/15/2006, you wrote:
>Milhauds Creation of the World ends wit ha polytonal dixieland fugue
>that clearly is so andquite a signature forthe composer.

I heard that piece in an all-Milhaud concert in 2002 at Mills (where
he taught for some time; there is now a chair of composition named
after him I believe). I don't remember the finale per se, but it
was one of the best concert's I've ever heard. The program was:

Aspen Serenade (1957)
Quatre poemes de Catulle (1923)
Sonata for violin and piano (1911)
--intermission--
Sonatina for violin and viola (1941)
Segoviana (1957)
La Creation du monde (1923)

A couple or three of these really hit the mark as among my favorite
pieces of music ever, but I can't remember which ones they were. I
don't recall any particularly polytonal stuff (I have a CD of his
four-hands piano music that I would consider clearly polytonal, but
perhaps the instrumentation is at work there).

-Carl

I have performed the 'Saudados do Brazil' for piano solo---fantastic
piece in tango rhythms. Also, a really beautiful piece of piano
writing. I aslo play 'Printemps, Book II'. William bolcom has a great
performance of some piano pieces on Nonesuch, I think. Great disc. He
studied under Milhaud, as did, believe it or not, Burt Bacharach!!

Milhaud's music is still under-valued. He was tremendously prolific, I
think his opus numbers go into the 600's! I know that not everything
was equal level, but still....one of the best things to happen to
twelve equal I think was to use it for what it does well, in the
footsteps of Milhaud.

I loved hearing how he completely despised Wagner's point of view that
all great art has to come from human suffering....he was a happily
married, quiet country type guy who just lived and wrote (probably
Haydnesque in that sense). He hated the pomposity of the
Wagnerian/neo-Wagnerian hysteria, and artist as superhuman 'romantic hero'

Another thing--does anyone else know that music by Paul Hindemith for
Oscar Sala's Trautonium? It's basically an early utonal electronic
instrument--used on Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds". AMAZING stuff---
some of the best Hindemith I've heard!

-A.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> At 10:51 AM 12/15/2006, you wrote:
> >Milhauds Creation of the World ends wit ha polytonal dixieland fugue
> >that clearly is so andquite a signature forthe composer.
>
> I heard that piece in an all-Milhaud concert in 2002 at Mills (where
> he taught for some time; there is now a chair of composition named
> after him I believe). I don't remember the finale per se, but it
> was one of the best concert's I've ever heard. The program was:
>
> Aspen Serenade (1957)
> Quatre poemes de Catulle (1923)
> Sonata for violin and piano (1911)
> --intermission--
> Sonatina for violin and viola (1941)
> Segoviana (1957)
> La Creation du monde (1923)
>
> A couple or three of these really hit the mark as among my favorite
> pieces of music ever, but I can't remember which ones they were. I
> don't recall any particularly polytonal stuff (I have a CD of his
> four-hands piano music that I would consider clearly polytonal, but
> perhaps the instrumentation is at work there).
>
> -Carl
>

>I have performed the 'Saudados do Brazil' for piano solo---fantastic
>piece in tango rhythms. Also, a really beautiful piece of piano
>writing. I aslo play 'Printemps, Book II'. William bolcom has a great
>performance of some piano pieces on Nonesuch, I think. Great disc. He
>studied under Milhaud, as did, believe it or not, Burt Bacharach!!
>
>Milhaud's music is still under-valued. He was tremendously prolific, I
>think his opus numbers go into the 600's!

One of the most prolific composers I have heard, after Telemann
of course.

>Another thing--does anyone else know that music by Paul Hindemith for
>Oscar Sala's Trautonium? It's basically an early utonal electronic
>instrument--used on Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds". AMAZING stuff---
>some of the best Hindemith I've heard!

No, where can I hear it. I've always wanted to hear the Trautonium.
Actually, The Birds is in my Netflix queue, but at the rate I'm
watching movies I'll never get to it. -C.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> >I have performed the 'Saudados do Brazil' for piano solo---fantastic
> >piece in tango rhythms. Also, a really beautiful piece of piano
> >writing. I aslo play 'Printemps, Book II'. William bolcom has a great
> >performance of some piano pieces on Nonesuch, I think. Great disc. He
> >studied under Milhaud, as did, believe it or not, Burt Bacharach!!
> >
> >Milhaud's music is still under-valued. He was tremendously prolific, I
> >think his opus numbers go into the 600's!
>
> One of the most prolific composers I have heard, after Telemann
> of course.
>
> >Another thing--does anyone else know that music by Paul Hindemith for
> >Oscar Sala's Trautonium? It's basically an early utonal electronic
> >instrument--used on Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds". AMAZING stuff---
> >some of the best Hindemith I've heard!
>
> No, where can I hear it. I've always wanted to hear the Trautonium.
> Actually, The Birds is in my Netflix queue, but at the rate I'm
> watching movies I'll never get to it. -C.
>

http://www.cdemusic.org/store/cde_search.cfm?keywords=ek1

The dick I heard was the first of the three, I think. The Sala pieces
are attractive, too, and worth hearing.

I think I also remember seeing somewhere some kind of softsynth plugin
that simulates a Trautonium.

-A.

>> >I have performed the 'Saudados do Brazil' for piano solo---fantastic
>> >piece in tango rhythms. Also, a really beautiful piece of piano
>> >writing. I aslo play 'Printemps, Book II'. William bolcom has a great
>> >performance of some piano pieces on Nonesuch, I think. Great disc. He
>> >studied under Milhaud, as did, believe it or not, Burt Bacharach!!
>> >
>> >Milhaud's music is still under-valued. He was tremendously prolific, I
>> >think his opus numbers go into the 600's!
>>
>> One of the most prolific composers I have heard, after Telemann
>> of course.
>>
>>>Another thing--does anyone else know that music by Paul Hindemith for
>>>Oscar Sala's Trautonium?
>> No, where can I hear it.
>http://www.cdemusic.org/store/cde_search.cfm?keywords=ek1

Thanks!

Whoa, $25 a pop. :(

Heh, an album called "My fascinating istrument" from a musician
named "Oscar". Sounds like a nod to your favorite jazz player, Aaron.

-Carl

I think that Milhaud, a French Jew forced into exile, who then spent most of his later life in a wheelchair, but still managed to give his autobiography the title of "My Happy Life", is a marvelous example for younger composers. Whenever I encountered younger musicians who feel somehow slighted by the world and angry at most of its inhabitants (there's one such person who turns up on this list from time to time), I take some comfort in Milhaud, a model of resilience and tolerance (none of his students wrote music that sounds like his!). Any other path will turn to paranoia, authoritarianism, or worse.

Daniel Wolf

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:

> A couple or three of these really hit the mark as among my favorite
> pieces of music ever, but I can't remember which ones they were. I
> don't recall any particularly polytonal stuff (I have a CD of his
> four-hands piano music that I would consider clearly polytonal, but
> perhaps the instrumentation is at work there).

His string quartets 14 and 15 are designed to be played together as an
octet also. That has to count as poly-something.

wasn't the 4-5-6th also designed or something close to this? to be be played together.
It was a very very long time ago

Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>
>
> His string quartets 14 and 15 are designed to be played together as an
> octet also. That has to count as poly-something.
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> His string quartets 14 and 15 are designed to be played together as an
> octet also. That has to count as poly-something.

BTW, Quatour Parisii complete recording contains the octet as well as the
quartets separately performed.

Rick