retuning midi with Cubase and Scala

Can somebody point me to step-by-step instructions for retuning midi
files using Cubase and Scala? What I want to do sounds like it should
be a routine operation, but I haven't been able to make it
work---something like:

1. compose a piece in Cubase sx,
2. export it as a midi file,
3. retune this with Scala,
4. import it back into Cubase,
5. (possibly edit it a little more),
6. render it in Cubase, using vstis or soundfonts (via sfzor some
other vsti).

I've tried this as well as several other methods (e.g., Cubase's own
microtuner plug-in and the TobyBear plug in). In every case, when I
measure the results, either nothing has happened, or intervals have
been retuned but not in the way I specified.

Considering all the options possible in exporting, retuning, importing
and rendering, it's quite possible I have some settings wrong, but
it's difficult to know what. Surely, many people here have done this
successfully---how is it done?

Hello Michael,

> 1. compose a piece in Cubase sx,
> 2. export it as a midi file,
> 3. retune this with Scala,
> 4. import it back into Cubase,
> 5. (possibly edit it a little more),
> 6. render it in Cubase, using vstis or soundfonts (via sfzor some
> other vsti).

Could you, between step 3 and 4, play the retuned midi file in Scala,
with PLAY or File:Play MIDI file. Then does it sound different from
what you expected?

Manuel

> Could you, between step 3 and 4, play the retuned midi file in Scala,
> with PLAY or File:Play MIDI file. Then does it sound different from
> what you expected?

I did an experiment. I retuned a scale with one of my tunings; in
this case, the interval between C and C# should be 87.9 cents. I used
all three methods: pitch bend, pitch bend without channel swapping and
midi tuning standard. I did try checking the play checkbox, but this
did nothing, so I rendered the retuned midi files using Winamp. Then,
for each of the three, I measured the interval between C and C#. The
results were interesting:

pb: 107.7 cents
pb w/o cs: 107.6 cents
mts: 99.9 cents

I was suspicious and tried rendering again with megamid.exe, but got
the same results. There was another strange thing: when using the
mts file, the value of C was correct (523.3 Hz), but in both
pitch-bent files it was 22.8 cents flat.

I'm baffled.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "coarsegroove78"
<michaelsaunders7@...> wrote:

> I did try checking the play checkbox, but this
> did nothing, so I rendered the retuned midi files using Winamp.

Ok, type HELP PLAY in the Scala command line, then check the
device it's using. If your soundcard doesn't have a synth, then
you could use the Microsoft software synth.

> The results were interesting:
>
> pb: 107.7 cents
> pb w/o cs: 107.6 cents
> mts: 99.9 cents

> I'm baffled.

Then you apparently need to know more about the Midi Tuning Standard,
mainly that there is very little support for it. Winamp ignores it, so
~100 cents is to be expected.

To understand why the other value is different I need to see the scale
and the keyboard mapping you used, and which MIDI notes you measured.

Manuel

> > I did try checking the play checkbox, but this
> > did nothing, so I rendered the retuned midi files using Winamp.
>
> Ok, type HELP PLAY in the Scala command line, then check the
> device it's using. If your soundcard doesn't have a synth, then
> you could use the Microsoft software synth.

I checked on this. It was set to "Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth",
which is one way I've played the midi files in both Cubase and Winamp.
If Scala would be using the same thing anyway, it doesn't bother me
if the play midi feature doesn't work---I wasn't planning on using it
anyway.

> > The results were interesting:
> >
> > pb: 107.7 cents
> > pb w/o cs: 107.6 cents
> > mts: 99.9 cents
>
> > I'm baffled.
>
> Then you apparently need to know more about the Midi Tuning Standard,
> mainly that there is very little support for it. Winamp ignores it, so
> ~100 cents is to be expected.

Now I'm confused. Someone on this list was telling me that
pitch-bending methods were obsolete. If the alternative doesn't work,
I'm in trouble! I was just looking for a way to retune midi files and
play them with vstis and soundfonts.

> To understand why the other value is different I need to see the scale
> and the keyboard mapping you used, and which MIDI notes you measured.

I'm afraid I don't see an easy way to attach my .scl file, but the
scale is:

OdWell Aeolian temp
|
0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime
1: 87.892 cents 87.892
2: 196.034 cents 196.034
3: 299.026 cents 299.026
4: 391.119 cents 391.119
5: 502.051 cents 502.051
6: 587.653 cents 587.653
7: 698.319 cents 698.319
8: 792.484 cents 792.484
9: 893.170 cents 893.170
10: 1002.370 cents 1002.370
11: 1089.430 cents 1089.430

The pitches I measured were high C and C#. Is this what you need to know?

(By the way, it's a well temperament I designed by minimizing the
square of the difference from pure for the 3rds and 5ths, weighted so
that the narrower intervals, the more important chords and the more
important keys are more consonant.)

Thanks for looking at my problem!

I don't use cubase, but another method is to use scala midi relaying
with midi yoke and cubase. So you can go from midi keyboard to scala
to midi yoke channel 1 to a midi track in cubase, all in realtime.
Then you can check your tuning with some other tuning utility
(ctuner, gtune, ap-tuner...).

Joe

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "coarsegroove78"
<michaelsaunders7@...> wrote:
>
> Can somebody point me to step-by-step instructions for retuning midi
> files using Cubase and Scala? What I want to do sounds like it
should
> be a routine operation, but I haven't been able to make it
> work---something like:
>
> 1. compose a piece in Cubase sx,
> 2. export it as a midi file,
> 3. retune this with Scala,
> 4. import it back into Cubase,
> 5. (possibly edit it a little more),
> 6. render it in Cubase, using vstis or soundfonts (via sfzor some
> other vsti).
>
> I've tried this as well as several other methods (e.g., Cubase's own
> microtuner plug-in and the TobyBear plug in). In every case, when I
> measure the results, either nothing has happened, or intervals have
> been retuned but not in the way I specified.
>
> Considering all the options possible in exporting, retuning,
importing
> and rendering, it's quite possible I have some settings wrong, but
> it's difficult to know what. Surely, many people here have done
this
> successfully---how is it done?
>

> I don't use cubase, but another method is to use scala midi relaying
> with midi yoke and cubase. So you can go from midi keyboard to scala
> to midi yoke channel 1 to a midi track in cubase, all in realtime.
> Then you can check your tuning with some other tuning utility
> (ctuner, gtune, ap-tuner...).

Thanks. I found tools/microtuning MIDI relay;
I didn't think it would work because I have no
keyboard. Nevertheless, I set up Cubase to send
midi to "MPU-401" (the Windows midi bus,
apparently) and record another midi channel from
it. I set up the Scala relay to send/recieve
from the same bus and crossed my fingers. No
luck---if I start up Cubase first and then press
the "start relaying" button, Scala gives me an
error on trying to open the midi device. If I
start relaying before I open Cubase, I am able
to record a new midi track with MPU-401 as input,
but it remains blank.

I'm not terribly stuck on Cubase. I'd settle
for:
Cubase midi editor--->midi file--->Scala--->
successfully retuned midi file--->vst host--->
successfully retuned audio file.

Michael,

{you wrote...}
>I'm not terribly stuck on Cubase. I'd settle for:
>Cubase midi editor--->midi file--->Scala--->successfully retuned midi file--->vst host--->successfully retuned audio file.

I'm sorry you haven't been able to work this out, but I know at least a small number of people here on MMM have done things with relaying/retuning in the past, and hopefully they will eventually get in on it. But I just have to ask one obvious question: is there a reason you haven't just used a VST instrument that is already microtunable? (if the answer is "because I don't want to buy another instrument", I certainly understand!)

There is a wide variety to choose from these days, and it makes it so very simple: I choose (or create) the tuning I want to use, load it into the instrument, and start making music. (he laughs as he glosses over at least a small number of possible caveats...) At some point I might try to get ZynSubAddFx (the worst name of all time) to work on my system, if for no other reason than I could then recommend a *free* microtunable VSTi.

Cheers,
Jon

> is there a reason you haven't just used a VST instrument that is
already microtunable?

I'm a Csound guy who's just starting
to sample the world of vstis (lots
of instruments that I don't have to
write myself). As I understood it,
there are loads of them but
relatively few that are directly
retunable. I thought that, since
Scala can retune midis (and that,
even if few vstis support mts,
surely most support pitch bend) it
shouldn't be too hard to play almost
any vsti microtonally. It's looking
like that isn't the case. I don't
even know why I'm getting the funny
results when I try rendering retuned
midis with Megamid, etc.

> There is a wide variety to choose from these days, and it makes it
so very simple...

Right now, I'd be happy if I could
just find one that would play
soundfonts---that was my first
project.

Thanks for the advice,

-- m

>I'm a Csound guy who's just starting
>to sample the world of vstis (lots
>of instruments that I don't have to
>write myself). As I understood it,
>there are loads of them but
>relatively few that are directly
>retunable. I thought that, since
>Scala can retune midis (and that,
>even if few vstis support mts,
>surely most support pitch bend) it
>shouldn't be too hard to play almost
>any vsti microtonally. It's looking
>like that isn't the case. I don't
>even know why I'm getting the funny
>results when I try rendering retuned
>midis with Megamid, etc.
>
>> There is a wide variety to choose from these days,
>> and it makes it so very simple...
>
>Right now, I'd be happy if I could
>just find one that would play
>soundfonts---that was my first
>project.
>
>Thanks for the advice,
>
>-- m

Kontakt
http://www.native-instruments.com
will accept SoundFonts, and is microtunable
http://www.12equalboresme.com
but not cheap.

There is now a VST version of SynthFont
http://www.synthfont.com
which is free. Last I heard this did not respect MIDI
tuning messages, but who knows if this is correct.

Sfz has SoundFont capabilities
http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz.htm
and is highly regarded. I thought it used to be
free, but it looks like Cakewalk is charging $60
http://cakewalk.com/Products/SFZ/
I can't remember if it's microtunable, but I think
Jon knows.

-Carl

>Kontakt
>http://www.native-instruments.com
>will accept SoundFonts, and is microtunable
>http://www.12equalboresme.com
>but not cheap.
>
>There is now a VST version of SynthFont
>http://www.synthfont.com
>which is free. Last I heard this did not respect MIDI
>tuning messages, but who knows if this is correct.
>
>Sfz has SoundFont capabilities
>http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz.htm
>and is highly regarded. I thought it used to be
>free, but it looks like Cakewalk is charging $60
>http://cakewalk.com/Products/SFZ/
>I can't remember if it's microtunable, but I think
>Jon knows.

Oh, and here are some shareware sf2-compatible
VSTs:
http://homepage.mac.com/bismark/products.html
$30 for regular, $50 for multi-timbral. As usual,
you'd have to write them to get the specifics on
tuning support.

-Carl

There are 3 different sfz things. sfz the open file sample format (which can use ogg files btw), that any sampler that wants to can load. You can indeed microtune every note but you need a region tag for each one, so it's somewhat tedious. You can also specify an integer number of cents between all notes, to make something like quartertones. There's the free sfz player. Then there's the commercial sfz+, which ironcially can't load sfz files.

Joe

----- Original Message ----
From: Carl Lumma <ekin@...>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2006 2:46:29 PMh
Subject: Re: [MMM] Re: retuning midi with Cubase and Scala

>I'm a Csound guy who's just starting
>to sample the world of vstis (lots
>of instruments that I don't have to
>write myself). As I understood it,
>there are loads of them but
>relatively few that are directly
>retunable. I thought that, since
>Scala can retune midis (and that,
>even if few vstis support mts,
>surely most support pitch bend) it
>shouldn't be too hard to play almost
>any vsti microtonally. It's looking
>like that isn't the case. I don't
>even know why I'm getting the funny
>results when I try rendering retuned
>midis with Megamid, etc.
>
>> There is a wide variety to choose from these days,
>> and it makes it so very simple...
>
>Right now, I'd be happy if I could
>just find one that would play
>soundfonts- --that was my first
>project.
>
>Thanks for the advice,
>
>-- m

Kontakt
http://www.native- instruments. com
will accept SoundFonts, and is microtunable
http://www.12equalb oresme.com
but not cheap.

There is now a VST version of SynthFont
http://www.synthfon t.com
which is free. Last I heard this did not respect MIDI
tuning messages, but who knows if this is correct.

Sfz has SoundFont capabilities
http://www.rgcaudio .com/sfz. htm
and is highly regarded. I thought it used to be
free, but it looks like Cakewalk is charging $60
http://cakewalk. com/Products/ SFZ/
I can't remember if it's microtunable, but I think
Jon knows.

-Carl

____________________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 12:54 PM 12/9/2006, you wrote:
>There are 3 different sfz things. sfz the open file sample format
>(which can use ogg files btw), that any sampler that wants to can
>load. You can indeed microtune every note but you need a region tag
>for each one, so it's somewhat tedious. You can also specify an
>integer number of cents between all notes, to make something like
>quartertones. There's the free sfz player. Then there's the
>commercial sfz+, which ironcially can't load sfz files.

Ah, I see. I was thinking of the player
http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz.htm

-Carl

Does simply playing with the mouse and the chromatic clavier in scala work with the tuning?

Joe

----- Original Message ----
From: coarsegroove78 <michaelsaunders7@...>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2006 8:10:20 AM
Subject: [MMM] Re: retuning midi with Cubase and Scala

> I don't use cubase, but another method is to use scala midi relaying
> with midi yoke and cubase. So you can go from midi keyboard to scala
> to midi yoke channel 1 to a midi track in cubase, all in realtime.
> Then you can check your tuning with some other tuning utility
> (ctuner, gtune, ap-tuner...) .

Thanks. I found tools/microtuning MIDI relay;
I didn't think it would work because I have no
keyboard. Nevertheless, I set up Cubase to send
midi to "MPU-401" (the Windows midi bus,
apparently) and record another midi channel from
it. I set up the Scala relay to send/recieve
from the same bus and crossed my fingers. No
luck---if I start up Cubase first and then press
the "start relaying" button, Scala gives me an
error on trying to open the midi device. If I
start relaying before I open Cubase, I am able
to record a new midi track with MPU-401 as input,
but it remains blank.

I'm not terribly stuck on Cubase. I'd settle
for:
Cubase midi editor--->midi file--->Scala- -->
successfully retuned midi file--->vst host--->
successfully retuned audio file.

____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Right now, I'd be happy if I could
>just find one that would play
>soundfonts

Try Wusikstation. It's microtunable via ".tun" files, and it can play soundfonts.

Rick

>Try Wusikstation. It's microtunable via ".tun" files, and it can play
>soundfonts.

Oh right, I forgot Wusikstation! I didn't know it had
SoundFont support, but I knew it accepted .tun files.

-Carl

Thanks to everyone for the advice about vstis.
I'm disappointed that there isn't a general
solution, but I'll check out the ones you've mentioned.

Joe asks:

> Does simply playing with the mouse and the chromatic clavier in
scala work with the tuning?

Yes, I did a quick measurement and playing the
clavier in Scala does give the correct interval.

-- m

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "coarsegroove78"
<michaelsaunders7@...> wrote:

> pb: 107.7 cents
> pb w/o cs: 107.6 cents
> mts: 99.9 cents
>
> I was suspicious and tried rendering again with megamid.exe, but got
> the same results. There was another strange thing: when using the
> mts file, the value of C was correct (523.3 Hz), but in both
> pitch-bent files it was 22.8 cents flat.
>
> I'm baffled.

The results for mts are easily explained--it isn't supported. As for
the rest of it, if you want to email me the midi file (to
genewardsmith at gmail.com) I'll take a look at the pitch bends.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "coarsegroove78"
<michaelsaunders7@...> wrote:

> I thought that, since
> Scala can retune midis (and that,
> even if few vstis support mts,
> surely most support pitch bend) it
> shouldn't be too hard to play almost
> any vsti microtonally. It's looking
> like that isn't the case.

Have you looked at Timidity and SynthFont?

> Have you looked at Timidity and SynthFont?
>

I'm familiar with Timidity but haven't used it with microtuning.
First, I want to work out why my retuned midi files give the wrong
intervals even when rendered with megamid.
Also, my object isn't just to use soundfonts. I wanted to be able to
use retuned midi files with any vsti, but from what I'm hearing, this
isn't possible.

>Also, my object isn't just to use soundfonts. I wanted to be able to
>use retuned midi files with any vsti, but from what I'm hearing, this
>isn't possible.

It's possible with pitch bends, just not desirable. The more
desirable method isn't universal. Such is life!

-Carl

Try this:
load your scale in scala
tools menu
retune midi file
pick input & output midi file
leave the option on 'use pitch bend tuning'
click ok

Joe

----- Original Message ----
From: coarsegroove78 <michaelsaunders7@...>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 9:09:05 PM
Subject: [MMM] Re: retuning midi with Cubase and Scala

> Have you looked at Timidity and SynthFont?
>

I'm familiar with Timidity but haven't used it with microtuning.
First, I want to work out why my retuned midi files give the wrong
intervals even when rendered with megamid.
Also, my object isn't just to use soundfonts. I wanted to be able to
use retuned midi files with any vsti, but from what I'm hearing, this
isn't possible.

____________________________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just downloaded the Wusikstation Demo, there's a goup buy (50 dollars)
now... it does take .tun files, and properly as far as I can tell so
far. It is very good, reminds me of 90s digital workstations in
sound, for whatever reason. Looks like a must-have.

I have the 30-day VSampler demo and simply can't get it to correctly
implement the .scl files it supposedly supports.

-Cameron Bobro

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Joe <tamahome02000@...> wrote:
>
> Try this:
> load your scale in scala
> tools menu
> retune midi file
> pick input & output midi file
> leave the option on 'use pitch bend tuning'
> click ok
>
> Joe

That's exactly what I did. As I reported earlier in this thread, I
retuned the midi file, rendered it and measured the intervals, and
found them to be different from the intervals in the .scl.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "coarsegroove78"
<michaelsaunders7@...> wrote:
> Now I'm confused. Someone on this list was telling me that
> pitch-bending methods were obsolete. If the alternative doesn't work,
> I'm in trouble! I was just looking for a way to retune midi files and
> play them with vstis and soundfonts.

I recommend Timidity then.

> I'm afraid I don't see an easy way to attach my .scl file, but the
> scale is:
>
> OdWell Aeolian temp
> |
> 0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime
> 1: 87.892 cents 87.892
> 2: 196.034 cents 196.034
> 3: 299.026 cents 299.026
> 4: 391.119 cents 391.119
> 5: 502.051 cents 502.051
> 6: 587.653 cents 587.653
> 7: 698.319 cents 698.319
> 8: 792.484 cents 792.484
> 9: 893.170 cents 893.170
> 10: 1002.370 cents 1002.370
> 11: 1089.430 cents 1089.430

That clears it up then. You have omitted the octave, just type
APPEND 2/1 (if that is the octave you want).
So what happened is you have specified an 11-note scale, so the next
note will be 1089.430+87.892 cents and you'd have noticed if you had
played an octave.

Manuel

> That clears it up then. You have omitted the octave, just type
> APPEND 2/1 (if that is the octave you want).

Thanks, Manuel! That solved it.

> > I was just looking for a way to retune midi files and
> > play them with vstis and soundfonts.
>
> I recommend Timidity then.

Thanks---I tried updating to the latest version and I find that the
format for the config file has changed. The docs are in no language
in particular and I can't figure out how to select different
voices/patches within a soundfont. Also, it can't play vstis, so I
was looking at Synthfont---which seems much easier to use. If it can
accept MTS-retuned files, then it's probably the most practical way to
go.

-- m

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "coarsegroove78"
<michaelsaunders7@...> wrote:

> > I recommend Timidity then.
>
> Thanks---I tried updating to the latest version and I find that the
> format for the config file has changed. The docs are in no language
> in particular and I can't figure out how to select different
> voices/patches within a soundfont.

Assumed you are on a GatesBox, this is all you need for a config file:

dir c:\music\timidity
soundfont "mygmfont.sf2"

Here of course the directory should be where timidity actually is
located, and "mygmfont.sf2" can be the name of whatever GM font you
want, sitting in the same directory.