Composition

Hey, one last comment about composition...this is from "A New Look at Segovia, Vol 1, "published by Mel Bay, p314. When commenting on Bach, one writer says: "Bach's music is never inherently bombastic, gaudy and theatrical; it is never cheap, puerile and debasive; but is invariably wholesome, ennobling, pure, and beautiful." Boy, that pretty much sums it up. When I compose, the high ideals of Bach are foremost in my mind/heart, and if I can get just a little bit of that philosophy in my music, I feel I've accomplished something...Hstick
myspace.com/microstick

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i like Vivaldi especially his la extravaganza, a series of 'experimental' works of his, although not really to our ears. butit does some fun subtle stuff
much less formulatic than bach :)

microstick@... wrote:
> Hey, one last comment about composition...this is from "A New Look at Segovia, Vol 1, "published by Mel Bay, p314. When commenting on Bach, one writer says: "Bach's music is never inherently bombastic, gaudy and theatrical; it is never cheap, puerile and debasive; but is invariably wholesome, ennobling, pure, and beautiful." Boy, that pretty much sums it up. When I compose, the high ideals of Bach are foremost in my mind/heart, and if I can get just a little bit of that philosophy in my music, I feel I've accomplished something...Hstick
> myspace.com/microstick
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

damn spell check it should be la stravaganza op.4

Kraig Grady wrote:
> i like Vivaldi especially his la extravaganza, a series of > 'experimental' works of his, although not really to our ears. butit does > some fun subtle stuff
> much less formulatic than bach :)
>
> microstick@... wrote:
> >> Hey, one last comment about composition...this is from "A New Look at Segovia, Vol 1, "published by Mel Bay, p314. When commenting on Bach, one writer says: "Bach's music is never inherently bombastic, gaudy and theatrical; it is never cheap, puerile and debasive; but is invariably wholesome, ennobling, pure, and beautiful." Boy, that pretty much sums it up. When I compose, the high ideals of Bach are foremost in my mind/heart, and if I can get just a little bit of that philosophy in my music, I feel I've accomplished something...Hstick
>> myspace.com/microstick
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> damn spell check it should be la stravaganza op.4

That's OK, in my head it always comes out extravaganza anyway.

>i like Vivaldi especially his la extravaganza, a series of
>'experimental' works of his, although not really to our ears. but it
>does some fun subtle stuff
>much less formulatic than bach :)

Depends on what Bach we're talking about, I would say.

Many composers had experimental works. Even Mozart wrote
fantasies like K475. Sounds like late Beethoven.

-Carl

Bach's music sounds erotic to me- like Karl Haas said, "...twenty-two
children?"

-Cameron Bobro

No such thing as the "greatest" anything....but, Hiromi Uehara's writing on "Time Control" is superb, some of the best compositions I've heard in years. David Torn's "Prezens" CD is also monstrous, serious stuff, otherworldly...I'll think of more later....HHH
myspace.com/microstick

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People should write exactly what they want, I feel. And when I make CD's, that's always been my one guiding principle, to record exactly what I want to hear, and that's that. Of course, an artist can only do what they do...if you're classically trained, for example, and never played anything else, then your music will reflect that training (and, of course, whatever other influences one may have encountered). We all "live" in different realms, as artists, and the wider one's range of influences is, the more that may be reflected in their music....and that can be pretty subtle. I've played a lot of jazz over the years, but, compared to the heavy cats I've been around, I don't really "live" there. But, jazz has been a big influence on my way of thinking, and has influenced the way I see things...for example, I really like playing over complex chordal changes, but not necessarily like a jazz player would.

Accessible is a tricky word...in the early '70's, the Mahavishnu Orchestra played to sold out houses, and was very well known...that type of music is fairly invisible now, not very popular at all. The "times" a culture goes through is a big deal, and we're in an incredibly conservative and dumbed down time for any sort of art right now. But, I think that could change overnight...I sure hope it does, cause we need powerful and meaningful art right now in the worst way. And, I've long thought using other tunings, and integrating them into music overall, can have a positive effect. And if "we" (meaning whoever wants to participate) want to make other, non 12 eq systems "popular," then we'll have to find a way to make non 12 music likeable to millions of folks...I think it can be accomplished, but it'll be interesting to see how it happens...Hstick
myspace.com/microstick

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A few more thoughts on composition...of course, each artist has his/her own reasons why they do what they do, no problem. I personally view composition as my path to go as deep as I can into the human experience...mine, of course, but also what I observe by being here on this planet, and what I learn just by living. Also...I am not content unless I come up with something original; to sound like another artist is death for me. And I've really been that way since I was a kid, always gravitated to real unique folks. That's one of the things I really like about using different tuning systems...it's a lot easier for me to come up with new ideas. And, I don't think I'm alone in believing that the 12 tone eq temp system is a bit played out...it is indeed getting harder and harder to come up with anything that's very original in that system (but can, and occasionally does, happen).

And I am indeed on a bit of a crusade (sorry to Muslims)...I send out a great deal of CD's to mags/musicians, whoever I think might be potentially interested in looking at what the field of tunings has to offer music/musicians...I am really weary of most music I hear today; there is a great deal of music that sounds like much of what has gone before...and that's not a surprise, considering everybody is still working in 12 eq. I listen to a lot of different styles...and man, not much in the way of originality these days, in any field. A few years ago, Wayne Shorter was quoted as saying "Nobody's composing their asses off anymore," and I agree totally...but, as mentioned, how you gonna come up with much in 12 eq these days? For example, when I listen to the jazz station here, sometimes it's hard to tell if it's 1957 or 2011...but, that again makes sense...how you gonna pass Coltrane/Miles if you remain in 12 eq? Ain't gonna happen, they took it as far as it can go...and I've also got to hear a lot of new classical composers over the years, as I attend a lot of Symph concerts. Same problem...I fully believe it's mighty hard to go places that Bartok/Ives/Debussy didn't already visit many years ago...and rock/country/folk/etc are pretty dismal as well, a lot of rehashing of ideas from Dylan/Hendrix/Zeppelin and others.

Course, just composing in new systems isn't necessarily the answer either, because one still needs imagination, depth of feeling, and some degree of technical skills to create something worthwhile. And, those qualities are not so easy to come by in the first place, especially imagination. I have taught hundreds of students over the years, and that is the most elusive quality of all, I feel...and I'm not so sure it can be taught, anyway. You might be able to help someone develop it, if it's there already...but I don't think it can come from nowhere if a person doesn't possess it in some degree already. Of course, I always encourage folks to gogogo...do what you can within the best of your abilities, and enjoy it fully. Jazz guitarist Charlie Byrd said "Anybody that can string 2 chords together is my friend," I think that's a great attitude...and everyone needs to be aware of both their strengths and their weaknesses. Try to improve on the weak parts, and maximize what we already are good at. I'm on 46 years of playing, and have a houseful of books on many subjects...always trying to see wassup in many different fields, I never take it for granted.

Since I discovered the field of tunings over 20 years ago, I've been astonished that more musicians don't get on board...I wanna stand on a roof and yell hey, look guys, there's this whole vast world out there and hardly anybody is aware of it. But, very few musicians today are taking advantage of what tunings have to offer. I believe that great art is in the details...and having different tuning systems available allows one to really fine tune their art to an astonishing degree. I've been able to achieve much more subtle levels of expression than I ever could before, and it can only get better. Our culture is, unfortunately, getting dumber and dumber...and I fear that is a trend that will continue. But, I am also very hopeful...who woulda guessed when the Beatles appeared on Ed Sullivan in 1964, they would be just the tip of a very big iceberg of art to follow? I've always believed that sort of change can happen again, that's one of the things that keeps me going...and the field of tuning is such a logical next step; again, I am somewhat amazed that it hasn't happened already. Keep it up...whoever wants to play/record/create should do it to the best of their abilities, and always keep the door open to improving/learning. And sharing in a peaceful way is a wonderful thing as well...we can all learn from each other...best to all in 2011...Hstick www.microstick.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...> wrote:
> Our culture is, unfortunately, getting dumber and dumber...and I fear that is a trend that will continue. But, I am also very hopeful...who woulda guessed when the Beatles appeared on Ed Sullivan in 1964, they would be just the tip of a very big iceberg of art to follow? I've always believed that sort of change can happen again, that's one of the things that keeps me going...

Maybe our own dumbness could be used to save the situation. We are so dumb these days that we need Auto-Tune in order to sing, and so dumb that we automatically use it to quantize to 12et. That means we are so dumb that a record producer could quantize to something else, say 31et, and no one would know it's been done, but they would notice the effect. I've sometimes wondered about the possibility of that sort of surreptitious creeping microtonality. Of course, people are mostly too dumb to try it and see if it works for some particular song.

>
> Maybe our own dumbness could be used to save the situation. We are so dumb these days that we need Auto-Tune in order to sing, and so dumb that we automatically use it to quantize to 12et. That means we are so dumb that a record producer could quantize to something else, say 31et, and no one would know it's been done, but they would notice the effect. I've sometimes wondered about the possibility of that sort of surreptitious creeping microtonality. Of course, people are mostly too dumb to try it and see if it works for some particular song.

Excepting the dumb "unschooled" blues and jazz greats who bent the
notes to where they heard them instead of just accepting where they
were.

Chris>"that a record producer could quantize to something else, say 31et, and no
one would know it's been done, but they would notice the effect."

I've heard many major labels already do this sort of thing...particularly
with rounding to tunings like 41TET when trying to make a sad-sounding piece
sound more sad.

On one hand, yes, you can get away with this sort of "rounding to the nearest
microtonal tuning note" deal.

On the other, personal ethics tell me doing such a thing (and only such a
thing) is by and large defeating a major point of microtonality...which is to
introduce intervals and chords which are immediately recognizable as distinct.

Now suppose someone were to make a song in 12TET, retune it to something like
31TET, and then add new parts based on some of the re-tuned intervals not in
12TET that follow from the mood change inherited from the retuning...that would
be something.
Especially with music such as blues where "in-between notes" are already
implied and vocal fluctuations that, at times, do commatic-level jumps that
could imply completely different notes in the new tuning.

________________________________
From: Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...>
To: MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 9:24:32 PM
Subject: Re: [MMM] Re: Composition

>
> Maybe our own dumbness could be used to save the situation. We are so dumb
>these days that we need Auto-Tune in order to sing, and so dumb that we
>automatically use it to quantize to 12et. That means we are so dumb that a
>record producer could quantize to something else, say 31et, and no one would
>know it's been done, but they would notice the effect. I've sometimes wondered
>about the possibility of that sort of surreptitious creeping microtonality. Of
>course, people are mostly too dumb to try it and see if it works for some
>particular song.

Excepting the dumb "unschooled" blues and jazz greats who bent the
notes to where they heard them instead of just accepting where they
were.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> I've heard many major labels already do this sort of thing...particularly
> with rounding to tunings like 41TET when trying to make a sad-sounding piece
> sound more sad.

I would *SERIOUSLY* like to see a single (or maybe three or four or twenty) shred(s) of evidence to back that up.

On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Michael <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> Chris>"that a record producer could quantize to something else, say 31et, and no
>
> one would know it's been done, but they would notice the effect."
>
> I've heard many major labels already do this sort of thing...particularly
> with rounding to tunings like 41TET when trying to make a sad-sounding piece
> sound more sad.

Really? Where have you heard this?

Really?

> On one hand, yes, you can get away with this sort of "rounding to the nearest
> microtonal tuning note" deal.
>
> On the other, personal ethics tell me doing such a thing (and only such a
> thing) is by and large defeating a major point of microtonality...which is to
> introduce intervals and chords which are immediately recognizable as distinct.

It's definitely not the holy grail of microtonal music, but I wouldn't
call it unethical. Just another cool thing that people are doing.

In response to Gene, I think our dumbness will save the situation by
taking a single alternate tuning and popularizing it. Probably some
ET, and probably for some specific aesthetic. Start using 7-tet or
14-tet for tribal music in some popular movie or something and
suddenly you have a full blown meme on your hands.

-Mike

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvaisvil@...> wrote:

> Excepting the dumb "unschooled" blues and jazz greats who bent the
> notes to where they heard them instead of just accepting where they
> were.

Auto-Tune could have put a stop to that.

Michael wrote:

>Chris>"that a record producer could quantize to something else, say
>31et, and no one would know it's been done, but they would notice the
>effect."

Gene wrote that, not Chris.

>I've heard many major labels already do this sort of thing...particularly
>with rounding to tunings like 41TET when trying to make a sad-sounding
>piece sound more sad.

Let me join the growing chorus of people wondering whether
making stuff up out of whole cloth is in fact your regular mode
of operation.

-Carl

knowing someone who does this for a living, i second that.
believe me it is all 12 ET and will stay that way

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 28/12/10 2:55 PM, jonszanto wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, Michael > <djtrancendance@...> wrote:
> > I've heard many major labels already do this sort of > thing...particularly
> > with rounding to tunings like 41TET when trying to make a > sad-sounding piece
> > sound more sad.
>
> I would *SERIOUSLY* like to see a single (or maybe three or > four or twenty) shred(s) of evidence to back that up.
>
>

I pretty much see it the same way Neil!
~

/^_,',',',_ //^/Kraig Grady_^_,',',',_
Mesotonal Music from:
_'''''''_ ^North/Western Hemisphere:
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>

_'''''''_^South/Eastern Hemisphere:
Austronesian Outpost of Anaphoria <http://anaphoriasouth.blogspot.com/>

',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',',

a momentary antenna as i turn to water
this evaporates - an island once again

On 28/12/10 11:17 AM, Neil Haverstick wrote:
>
>
> A few more thoughts on composition...of course, each artist > has his/her own reasons why they do what they do, no problem. > I personally view composition as my path to go as deep as I > can into the human experience...mine, of course, but also what > I observe by being here on this planet, and what I learn just > by living. Also...I am not content unless I come up with > something original; to sound like another artist is death for > me. And I've really been that way since I was a kid, always > gravitated to real unique folks. That's one of the things I > really like about using different tuning systems...it's a lot > easier for me to come up with new ideas. And, I don't think > I'm alone in believing that the 12 tone eq temp system is a > bit played out...it is indeed getting harder and harder to > come up with anything that's very original in that system (but > can, and occasionally does, happen).
>
> And I am indeed on a bit of a crusade (sorry to Muslims)...I > send out a great deal of CD's to mags/musicians, whoever I > think might be potentially interested in looking at what the > field of tunings has to offer music/musicians...I am really > weary of most music I hear today; there is a great deal of > music that sounds like much of what has gone before...and > that's not a surprise, considering everybody is still working > in 12 eq. I listen to a lot of different styles...and man, not > much in the way of originality these days, in any field. A few > years ago, Wayne Shorter was quoted as saying "Nobody's > composing their asses off anymore," and I agree totally...but, > as mentioned, how you gonna come up with much in 12 eq these > days? For example, when I listen to the jazz station here, > sometimes it's hard to tell if it's 1957 or 2011...but, that > again makes sense...how you gonna pass Coltrane/Miles if you > remain in 12 eq? Ain't gonna happen, they took it as far as it > can go...and I've also got to hear a lot of new classical > composers over the years, as I attend a lot of Symph concerts. > Same problem...I fully believe it's mighty hard to go places > that Bartok/Ives/Debussy didn't already visit many years > ago...and rock/country/folk/etc are pretty dismal as well, a > lot of rehashing of ideas from Dylan/Hendrix/Zeppelin and others.
>
> Course, just composing in new systems isn't necessarily the > answer either, because one still needs imagination, depth of > feeling, and some degree of technical skills to create > something worthwhile. And, those qualities are not so easy to > come by in the first place, especially imagination. I have > taught hundreds of students over the years, and that is the > most elusive quality of all, I feel...and I'm not so sure it > can be taught, anyway. You might be able to help someone > develop it, if it's there already...but I don't think it can > come from nowhere if a person doesn't possess it in some > degree already. Of course, I always encourage folks to > gogogo...do what you can within the best of your abilities, > and enjoy it fully. Jazz guitarist Charlie Byrd said "Anybody > that can string 2 chords together is my friend," I think > that's a great attitude...and everyone needs to be aware of > both their strengths and their weaknesses. Try to improve on > the weak parts, and maximize what we already are good at. I'm > on 46 years of playing, and have a houseful of books on many > subjects...always trying to see wassup in many different > fields, I never take it for granted.
>
> Since I discovered the field of tunings over 20 years ago, > I've been astonished that more musicians don't get on > board...I wanna stand on a roof and yell hey, look guys, > there's this whole vast world out there and hardly anybody is > aware of it. But, very few musicians today are taking > advantage of what tunings have to offer. I believe that great > art is in the details...and having different tuning systems > available allows one to really fine tune their art to an > astonishing degree. I've been able to achieve much more subtle > levels of expression than I ever could before, and it can only > get better. Our culture is, unfortunately, getting dumber and > dumber...and I fear that is a trend that will continue. But, I > am also very hopeful...who woulda guessed when the Beatles > appeared on Ed Sullivan in 1964, they would be just the tip of > a very big iceberg of art to follow? I've always believed that > sort of change can happen again, that's one of the things that > keeps me going...and the field of tuning is such a logical > next step; again, I am somewhat amazed that it hasn't happened > already. Keep it up...whoever wants to play/record/create > should do it to the best of their abilities, and always keep > the door open to improving/learning. And sharing in a peaceful > way is a wonderful thing as well...we can all learn from each > other...best to all in 2011...Hstick www.microstick.net
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>