feedback on the 17-tone piano project 2

Unbiased opinion of a pianist/composer friend of mine:

> http://www.archive.org/details/seventeenTPP_02
>
>From shortest to longest:
>
>study -- yawn
>of silent planet -- yawn
>waltz -- cute
>shark -- simple but effective use of the resource
>sub arbore -- plain but nice
>free lancer -- yawn
>shine for thyself -- plain but nice
>etude -- a little more interesting
>tres piano e forte -- yawn
>cirrus and pileus -- the winner so far (funny and interesting,
>if kitchy)
>ogives -- started interesting, but got duller
>three lonely uninspired ways to play in 17 tet -- good, but uneven
>past in and r one to -- yawn
>81 ninth chords -- minimal, but effective
>
>I think that if I were to pick one that I'd listen to again, it
>would be 81 ninth chords, because what it achieves is better in
>sync with what it attempts than the others.

-Carl

really carl- how tastsless and who cares what this guy thinks since he can't think pass a few words
nor is there anything the least bit articulate about his comments

Carl Lumma wrote:
> Unbiased opinion of a pianist/composer friend of mine:
>
> >> http://www.archive.org/details/seventeenTPP_02
>>
>> > >From shortest to longest:
> >> study -- yawn
>> of silent planet -- yawn
>> waltz -- cute
>> shark -- simple but effective use of the resource
>> sub arbore -- plain but nice
>> free lancer -- yawn
>> shine for thyself -- plain but nice
>> etude -- a little more interesting
>> tres piano e forte -- yawn
>> cirrus and pileus -- the winner so far (funny and interesting,
>> if kitchy)
>> ogives -- started interesting, but got duller
>> three lonely uninspired ways to play in 17 tet -- good, but uneven
>> past in and r one to -- yawn
>> 81 ninth chords -- minimal, but effective
>>
>> I think that if I were to pick one that I'd listen to again, it
>> would be 81 ninth chords, because what it achieves is better in
>> sync with what it attempts than the others.
>> >
> -Carl
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>Unbiased opinion of a pianist/composer friend of mine:

No one is unbiased. For starters, you mention he is a pianist, and one can only assume he uses 12edo pianos, and carries piano (literature/history) baggage.

Cheers,
Jon

Jon Szanto wrote:

>Carl,
>
>{you wrote...}
> >
>>Unbiased opinion of a pianist/composer friend of mine:
>> >>
>
>No one is unbiased. For starters, you mention he is a pianist, and one can only assume he uses 12edo pianos, and carries piano (literature/history) baggage.
>
Man, that's got to be rough on the back.

A recent review of my string qt.:
http://www.sequenza21.com/cdreviews/?p=18

I sure hope he wanted to write "two schools". ;)

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

>really carl- how tastsless

Because he isn't fawning over everything?

>and who cares what this guy thinks

I thought it was in line with the comments posted by Dan
and Hans. How many classically-trained pianists have you
heard from in regards to this concert?

-Carl

>>Unbiased opinion of a pianist/composer friend of mine:
>
>No one is unbiased.

That's a deep insight, Jon. The fact is, he listened to
and enjoyed the concert, rather than just saying "Euw" like
half of the people on Google groups did. His comments were
about the compositions, not the tuning.

-Carl

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>That's a deep insight, Jon.

Look, you framed it as presenting a perfectly benign viewpoint, which was disingenuous at best. No reason to not point that out.

>The fact is, he listened to and enjoyed the concert, rather than just saying "Euw" like half of the people on Google groups did.

No, his deep insight was *yawn*.

>His comments were about the compositions, not the tuning.

Impossible to tell from his less-than-verbose commentary. It would have been interesting to see how that aspect might have arisen had the concert been in a variety of tunings.

I'll say this: while 17 isn't a tuning I'd be interested in composing/playing, I am very impressed with the project, Jacob's efforts to bring the entire thing off (including devoting the time for rehearsal/performance), and then range of musics written in what was a fairly short amount of time. No need for winners and losers, but a good endeavor overall. Kudos to the composers, performers, and Jacob most of all!

Cheers,
Jon

> >That's a deep insight, Jon.
>
>Look, you framed it as presenting a perfectly benign viewpoint,
>which was disingenuous at best.

I disagree.

>No reason to not point that out.

Sure there is: because it goes without saying.

>> The fact is, he listened to and enjoyed the concert, rather
>> than just saying "Euw" like half of the people on Google
>> groups did.
>
> No, his deep insight was *yawn*.

There's nothing wrong with "yawn" (your fawning reviews on
this list are hardly more informative) and that's not the
only comment he made. Unlike the Google groups naysaying,
which was posted here without comment, he listened to the
entire concert and gave feedback on each piece, and didn't
balk at the tuning.

I haven't listened to the pieces knowing what they are yet,
except Sharks, but when I do I indend to compare my notes with
these.

> I'll say this: while 17 isn't a tuning I'd be interested in
> composing/playing, I am very impressed with the project,
> Jacob's efforts to bring the entire thing off (including
> devoting the time for rehearsal/performance), and then range
> of musics written in what was a fairly short amount of time.
> No need for winners and losers,

Clearly you're uncomfortable with negative comments, unless
they have to do with math, soundfonts, or Gene.

>Kudos to the composers, performers, and Jacob most of all!

Yes, both of us (I believe) have already said that.

-Carl

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>I disagree.

That's OK, you and I have disagreed on a lot over the years. Makes for a good mix.

>Sure there is: because it goes without saying.

Oh, bollocks.

>There's nothing wrong with "yawn"

There is quite a bit wrong with it, mostly in tone, but that's life.

>(your fawning reviews on this list are hardly more informative)

Well, the last "fawning review" mentioned a number of details from the performance, details which I appreciated in listening. I have had to skim this concert, and have not spent time with a few of the pieces. Dan specifically posted his piece, and I've always liked Dan's work. Sorry if you have a problem with a public display of pleasure and support.

>Clearly you're uncomfortable with negative comments, unless they have to do with math, soundfonts, or Gene.

I won't take the goading, but you are misrepresenting me. As far as negative comments, I tend to treat them carefully, out of respect for the various people on the list. I often write the person personally instead. Your friend may very well have listened at length to the concert, but I certainly didn't find much illuminating in his comments; maybe others can get a better idea from "yawn", and how to make there music less yawn-worthy.

>Yes, both of us (I believe) have already said that.

Gad, we agree.

Cheers,
Jon

My take on all of this:

* Jacob rocks for being an organizer and seeing this through. Very
difficult. Anyone interested in the cause of micromusic ought to heap
praises on him for this fact alone.

* The concert, what I skimmed of it, seemed interesting enough for me.
The pieces were well played, and 'came to life' compared to their MIDI
versions. I can see how a whole night of 17, however well-done, can
get rough, though, personally. I think the composers, all of them,
should receive kudos for their contributions.

* I have to agree that 'yawn' as a critique doesn't do anything
constructive, but stir up toxic energy due to slighting and being
slighted. I would even accept 'yawn' followed by an intelligent
description, but much prefer and intelligent description with no
subjective qualifiers whatesoever (e.g. Virgil Thompson style
critiquing).

* Since this is a forum ostensively for the sharing of microtonal
know-how, technical and compositional, I think 'negative' comments
have *no* place, but ideally, *any* comments should be polite and
respectful. So I would call my personal ideal 'constructive criticism'
instead.(This of course assumes we want the community to be peaceful
and cohesive). Negativity as I described it is just plain uncool and
toxic. It might in fact be called 'destructive criticism' since it
discourages good feelings and mutual exploration and encouragement,
and causes upset and hurt feelings all around. We have enough stupid
fights around here. No wonder entire nations can't get along when you
consider that a small community like ours cannot. (e.g. JI vs ET wars
and all such other silly waste-of-energy arguments)

Carl, I'm not implicating per se as being toxic, I appreciate the open
honest spirit with which you wanted to post (I assume this was your
intent), but I think we should also be ever wary of the power of our
small little words to do real damage. I have seen you be very friendly
towards the newbies in here, so I would assume you didn't mean to be
provocative or aggressive....I know, Carl, these were your friend's
'comments', but if you post it unqualified, some might take it as
being your implicit attitude, rightly or wrongly.

All best,
Aaron.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Carl,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >Unbiased opinion of a pianist/composer friend of mine:
>
> No one is unbiased. For starters, you mention he is a pianist, and
one can only assume he uses 12edo pianos, and carries piano
(literature/history) baggage.
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Krister Johnson"
<aaron@...> wrote:
>
> My take on all of this:
>
> * Jacob rocks for being an organizer and seeing this through. Very
> difficult. Anyone interested in the cause of micromusic ought to
heap
> praises on him for this fact alone.
>
> * The concert, what I skimmed of it, seemed interesting enough for
me.
> The pieces were well played, and 'came to life' compared to their
MIDI
> versions. I can see how a whole night of 17, however well-done, can
> get rough, though, personally. I think the composers, all of them,
> should receive kudos for their contributions.

My feelings completely. I didn't listen to any of these until this
past weekend, but I did listen to everything (twice). Even though
I'm familiar with the intervals in 17, I don't think that's enough
exposure for me to make constructive comments, since it's quite a bit
to digest, and I would no doubt pick up things on additional hearings
that I missed previously.

Anyway, I thought it might be helpful if I shared a few high points
concerning my own 17-tone odyssey.

One of the roughest things I found about 17 is figuring how to go
about writing for it. At first (in 1963) I didn't even think it was
worth bothering with, and it took 15 years for me to reach the
conclusion that I was wrong. At that time I devised a 17-tone well-
temperament, which appeared in the first issue of _Interval_. About
23 years after that, Margo Schulter tried my 17-WT and wrote me about
how much she liked it for her neo-medieval music. I found this a bit
puzzing, and our correspondence over the next few months resulted in
some startling new discoveries about 17, at which point I finally put
my thoughts (both old and new) into a paper (26 pages), completed in
December 2001 for the "upcoming" issue of Xenharmonikon 18. Needless
to say, It took nearly 5 years before it got published and mailed out
(this past week, along with Margo's companion article) at a very
appropriate time, I might add: on the heels of Jacob's 17-tone piano
project 2.

I gather that nobody here with any interest in 17 (other than Margo)
has seen it yet, since nobody else has mentioned it. :-( Perhaps I
should find some place to put it online.

Aaron, I take an approach to 17 that's similar to the way you studied
19 before composing "The Juggler". Since the intervals in 17 are,
generally speaking, less consonant than those in 19, I made it a
point to identify the most consonant chords, which I then used to
construct several types of scales (some of which are MOS). My
objective is to use as many tried-and-true principles of composition
as possible, e.g., good voice-leading, proper utilization of harmonic
vs. non-harmonic tones, and resolution of dissonant chords to more
consonant ones. One particularly delightful discovery about 17 that
I cover in my paper is the possibility of neatly resolving an
apparent conflict between the requirements for the most effective
melodic vs. harmonic intervals.

So where's the music? Good news: around 3 years ago I started
writing a piece in 17-WT, which is based on an idea that I tried in a
1978 improvisation using a 9-tone MOS scale described in the paper.
Bad news: due to too many other things competing for my time and
attention, I've completed only 24 measures so far. Good news: that
should be enough to give you a taste of what 13-limit non-5 harmony
(consisting largely of both block & broken chords) sounds like,
performed by a 17-WT virtual jazz ensemble. Only two notes in the
example (very-short-duration passing tones) are foreign to the MOS
scale:

/tuning-
math/files/secor/17WTjazz.mp3

Bad news: sorry, but tuning-math was the only place I could find with
enough room left (filesize of 763K) in the files section, so if
someone else would like to volunteer to put it somewhere temporarily
for tuning-math non-members, I would appreciate it. In any event,
I'll leave it there for only a short time.

--George

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "George D. Secor" <gdsecor@...>
wrote:
> Needless
> to say, It took nearly 5 years before it got published and mailed out
> (this past week, along with Margo's companion article) at a very
> appropriate time, I might add: on the heels of Jacob's 17-tone piano
> project 2.

How very odd.

I don't subscribe to XH (though I did convince Rice's library to buy all
the back issues!) and would love if you put it online somewhere. If the
PDF is less than 5 MB, the wiki could take it...

Speaking of which,

> /tuning-
> math/files/secor/17WTjazz.mp3

is now mirrored here:
<http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17WTjazz.mp3>

Kind of catchy. I think I'd prefer non-parallel moving chords - I
wonder how universal voice-leading rules could be applied as well.

George,

{you wrote...}
>Bad news: sorry, but tuning-math was the only place I could find with enough room left (filesize of 763K) in the files section, so if someone else would like to volunteer to put it somewhere temporarily for tuning-math non-members, I would appreciate it. In any event, I'll leave it there for only a short time.

I'll go grab it and put it up at microtonal.org, and post a link back here when I've got it up. After all, I owe you for so much!

Cheers,
Jon

Hi George,

I'd be interested to see the article about seventeen equal if you feel like putting it on-line.
I'm very fond of this tuning and find it a beautiful one without knowing why quite.
I know it is rough, but a rough beauty, to me feels very tender and gentle
in its way. Also it is a very melodic tuning I think, one which somehow
lets melody lines really soar. Like, you can have maybe a bit of a chord
structure, light accompaniment, then let the melody line soar
above it into the clouds. Or with just a sparse arrangement of three
voices or so like Margo's piece. I mean just as one take on it, I'm not
trying to prescribe to anyone how to compose in 17-et!

It does well in sparse textures just because the chords are so
rough, so with few notes you get much richer sounding chords
than you do with many more notes in 12 equal, and it is
a good tuning for saying a lot with a few notes as well.

Maybe in the future some composer could do a 17-et
equivalent of Vaughn William's Lark Ascending (I mean a new
piece with same soaring quality, not a 17-et transcription).

I enjoyed the concert a lot. I thought also the performers did a good job
and it really brings life to the pieces to hear them and indeed it is nice
to be able to watch the concert on video too for that matter, and somehow
feel one is taking part as audience from the distance.

My particular favourites, for what it is worth, were Margo Schulter's
Sub arbore and Dan Stearn's Cirrus and Pileus. Margo's one
brought out the kind of yearning beauty of the tuning so,
and Dan Stearn's was so kind of joyful and fun :-).
Also Dan's one had a brilliant fun ending!

BTW everyone - I've been very pre-occupied with finishing FTS 3.0
release, however it is finally finally getting close to being ready
hopefully - for those interested - it should be ready fairly soon now
hopefully... First new release that would be since december 2002
- it has had a major overhaul since then.

Robert

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Robert walker"
<yahoogroups@...> wrote:
>
> Hi George,
>
> I'd be interested to see the article about seventeen equal if you
feel like putting it on-line.

Hi Robert,

Uh, the article isn't about 17-equal -- it's about my 17-tone well-
temperament, which makes 17 a bit more tolerable harmonically,
without adversely affecting its wonderful melodic properties. I'll
be getting it on-line as soon as I can get a co-worker of mine to
make a PDF file (which may take at least a few days, according to
what our work schedules permit; I'm taking the next couple of days
off).

> I'm very fond of this tuning and find it a beautiful one without
knowing why quite.
> I know it is rough, but a rough beauty, to me feels very tender and
gentle
> in its way. Also it is a very melodic tuning I think, one which
somehow
> lets melody lines really soar.

Yep, that's the very first thing I point out in the paper.

> Like, you can have maybe a bit of a chord
> structure, light accompaniment, then let the melody line soar
> above it into the clouds. Or with just a sparse arrangement of three
> voices or so like Margo's piece.

With 17-WT sparse voicing isn't essential. I have mostly 4-voice
examples in my paper, in which, BTW, Margo and her music play a very
prominent role. The supporting cast includes Ivor Darreg, Marchettus
of Padua, and Archytas of Tarentum.

> I mean just as one take on it, I'm not
> trying to prescribe to anyone how to compose in 17-et!

For 17, suggestions are always welcome!

> It does well in sparse textures just because the chords are so
> rough, so with few notes you get much richer sounding chords
> than you do with many more notes in 12 equal, and it is
> a good tuning for saying a lot with a few notes as well.
>
> Maybe in the future some composer could do a 17-et
> equivalent of Vaughn William's Lark Ascending (I mean a new
> piece with same soaring quality, not a 17-et transcription).

Perhaps one could use a simple chain-of-fifths pentatonic scale as a
starting point; this could also be opened up into a 5-note broken
chord texture (as stacked 4ths, taking every other note of the scale)
to accompany a melody. That could then be varied by substituting
other tones into the scale to include some neutral (11 and 13)
intervals into the mix (or by adding a couple more notes to the scale
for the melodic part, making it heptatonic), finally ending with the
original pentatonic scale/chord. (Golly, in 2 sentences of text I've
practically written the piece for you!)

--George

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jacob" <jbarton@...> wrote:
>...
> I don't subscribe to XH (though I did convince Rice's library to
buy all
> the back issues!) and would love if you put it online somewhere.
If the
> PDF is less than 5 MB, the wiki could take it...

It'll be ~250KB, so no problem, although I probably won't have a PDF
file to put out there until Monday at the soonest.

> Speaking of which,
>
> > /tuning-
> > math/files/secor/17WTjazz.mp3
>
> is now mirrored here:
> <http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17WTjazz.mp3>

Thanks! By "mirrored" do you mean that there's a copy of the file
there, or that there's a pointer to the tuning-math location? (In
other words, should I delete my file yet?)

> Kind of catchy.

That's precisely the impression I hoped for. My aim is to create
microtonal music that will appeal to more than just music-academic
circles or the microtonal niche, and I think that this particular
piece could be used as theme music for a television detective series,
etc.

> I think I'd prefer non-parallel moving chords -

I agree, but as long as the musical style allowed it and the
relationships between the tones in this particular 9-tone MOS scale
suggested it, it was the most natural way to go.

> I
> wonder how universal voice-leading rules could be applied as well.

There's no reason they couldn't, at least with heptatonic scales (or
with the 11-tone MOS scale with 6deg17 generator of the same type as
the 31-ET one you found). A large part of the paper deals with
topics such as 4-part harmony, melodic vs. harmonic issues, and
resolution of dissonant chords. If it weren't for the microtonality,
this paper might well have been written prior to the 20th century.

--George

Dan Amateur and Misterboro have peaked my interest..... the sinewave, octave thing.

I'd like to know how to do this too, using radians as misterboro suggests. (Would love an explanation)

BUT

What I'd like to know even more is, how to place intervals in the right proportions around a circle.

I went through Scala, and made a Pythagorean scale of 26 notes, circle of fifths; 3/2

Wanted to display it as a tone circle, but it would only show an edo12 circle, when I went through different circle selections, I couldnt really see what i was after.

Instead of displaying equal spaces between circles, I really want to be able to make a circle that shows all the intervals in a pythagorean 26 note scale, which means unequal spacings between. If I place 1/1 at zero degrees and start from there around the circumference, how do I actually place the intervals on the circumference, there must be a simple math formula, maybe involving PI to do this?

---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And here's another enthusiastic user of 17 "Well-Tempered". Been
refining a rational 17 that's close to equal (equal narrow regions is
how I look at it). When I did "compare" in Scala, I found Margo
Schulter's 17-tone scales, averaging out only a couple of cents away.

Since my fundamental approach to music is heterophonic at heart, a
very melodic tuning is the best, of course. Melodies against melodies
is the ideal in heterophony (and in counterpoint IMO) Mutating and
interlocking tetra/pentachords works for me.

Interestingly, parallel 3d/6ths are great in 17 WT, with continually
shifting major, minor, and median characters.

Looking forward to the article!

-Cameron Bobro

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, dar kone <zarkorgon@...> wrote:

> Instead of displaying equal spaces between circles, I really want
to be able to make a circle that shows all the intervals in a
pythagorean 26 note scale, which means unequal spacings between. If I
place 1/1 at zero degrees and start from there around the
circumference, how do I actually place the intervals on the
circumference, there must be a simple math formula, maybe involving PI
to do this?

Using radians supplies no advantage to this type of problem. If you
give the notes C in cents, from 0 for 1/1 to 1200 for 2/1, and if the
radius of your circle is R, you can place the points so that the x and
y coordinates are

x = R cos (0.3 C)
y = R sin (0.3 C)

Another way to say it is that in polar coordinates, the angle going from
0 to 360 degrees is 0.3*C when we have a note of C cents. Hence the
major third of 5/4, 386.3 cents, corresponds to an angle of 115.894
degrees, a bit short of the exactly 120 degrees of the 12-equal version.

> What I'd like to know even more is, how to place intervals in the right proportions around a circle.

I think this is easily done.

1) Consider the circle to be graded in cents (1200 to the whole circle).
2) Convert your ratios to cents (reference some recent posts)
3) Map them to the circle!

p.s. Simple arithmetic ( (cents_interval/1200)*360 ) will convert to
degrees, or substitute 2pi for radians.

Maybe this is more appropriate for one of the other lists?

Chris

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "misterbobro" <misterbobro@...>
wrote:
>
> And here's another enthusiastic user of 17 "Well-Tempered". Been
> refining a rational 17 that's close to equal (equal narrow regions is
> how I look at it). When I did "compare" in Scala, I found Margo
> Schulter's 17-tone scales, averaging out only a couple of cents away.
>
> Since my fundamental approach to music is heterophonic at heart, a
> very melodic tuning is the best, of course. Melodies against melodies
> is the ideal in heterophony (and in counterpoint IMO) Mutating and
> interlocking tetra/pentachords works for me.
>
> Interestingly, parallel 3d/6ths are great in 17 WT, with continually
> shifting major, minor, and median characters.
>
> Looking forward to the article!
>
> -Cameron Bobro
>

...and the music

Chris,

{you wrote...}
>Maybe this is more appropriate for one of the other lists?

I'm sure people could agree with that.

Cheers,
Jon

<prosim>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >Maybe this is more appropriate for one of the other lists?
>
> I'm sure people could agree with that.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

Hi George,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Anyway, I'm interested to read about your 17 tone
well tempering of seventeen equal.

Since composers vary a lot in how dense or sparse their music is, also
within a piece, so I suppose a better way to say it is that in 17-et you can
have the same richness of texture with fewer notes, whatever that
might be.

Thanks also for your composing suggestion to start with a pentatonic
scale with a chord made of stacked fourths, and gradually add more notes.
It can be quite effective as a structure to go from a sparse scale to
one with more notes then back again, I find, so I can imagine it
working well.

Thanks,

Robert

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Which other lists? If Im wanting to map microtones to a circle, and this is a theoretical issue of micro tuning.... but not necessarily a common type of question,
Id really love to know which list to ask this sort of question in, can some one make a recommendation?

Thanks heaps!

Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
Chris,

{you wrote...}
>Maybe this is more appropriate for one of the other lists?

I'm sure people could agree with that.

Cheers,
Jon

Yahoo! Groups Links

---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Dar,

{you wrote...}
>Which other lists? If Im wanting to map microtones to a circle, and this is a theoretical issue of micro tuning.... but not necessarily a common type of question.
> Id really love to know which list to ask this sort of question in, can some one make a recommendation?

The very best place to go would be what we refer to as the Main Tuning list:

/tuning/

That is where the main theoretical work gets taken care of, and I appreciate (and hope!) that you didn't take offense at my suggestion. (Veterans of the list need read no further...)

MMM was set up as an alternative and/or adjunct to the tuning list, which predates all of our other lists. We started MMM to have a place to focus on the means, techniques, and discussion of actually creating microtonal music. We have tried to keep - as much as possible without being jerks about it - the amount of purely theoretical posting here to a minimum, usually tieing it into a piece under discussion. Also, while there are a good number of people that read/post in both places, there are a number of good 'numbers' people over there that don't poke their head in here.

Well, long answer, sorry. Hope this clarifies the sentiments, and I hope you check out the tuning list as well.

Cheers,
Jon (former moderator and one of the founders of this list...)

> Which other lists?

tuning or tuning-math, I think they're called. Both yahoo groups.

Chris

what is 'prosim', a yahoo group?

daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote: <prosim>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >Maybe this is more appropriate for one of the other lists?
>
> I'm sure people could agree with that.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jon, no offense taken! I love this group, but I very much appreciate the heads up and will pursue your suggestion. Very best of regards to you!

Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dar,

{you wrote...}
>what is 'prosim', a yahoo group?

Nope - Czech for "please", I believe:
http://www.yawiktionary.com/p/1148371872133.html

Cheers,
Jon

it was just another please, because as you (Dar) probably don't know,
This very group was a splinter group from the tuning list .The idea
was that there were a few of us that really started to get annoyed at
the situation where you'd post a piece of music and it would get swept
off in a never-ending parade of numerological contemplation and
"advice". Personally i hate this, so everyone in a while i see it here
and bristle. Though now i don't bristle much, and i even say please
....btw ,that robot voice thing is funnnnn-ny, and renders the Slavic
words (at least), in a pronouciation of its own design.

also, got Cirrus up here for anyone who might be interested:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pY4UwgwV4RY

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Dar,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >what is 'prosim', a yahoo group?
>
> Nope - Czech for "please", I believe:
> http://www.yawiktionary.com/p/1148371872133.html
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

I get where you are coming from

daniel_anthony_stearns <daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote: it was just another please, because as you (Dar) probably don't know,
This very group was a splinter group from the tuning list .The idea
was that there were a few of us that really started to get annoyed at
the situation where you'd post a piece of music and it would get swept
off in a never-ending parade of numerological contemplation and
"advice". Personally i hate this, so everyone in a while i see it here
and bristle. Though now i don't bristle much, and i even say please
....btw ,that robot voice thing is funnnnn-ny, and renders the Slavic
words (at least), in a pronouciation of its own design.

also, got Cirrus up here for anyone who might be interested:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pY4UwgwV4RY

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Dar,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >what is 'prosim', a yahoo group?
>
> Nope - Czech for "please", I believe:
> http://www.yawiktionary.com/p/1148371872133.html
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> also, got Cirrus up here for anyone who might be interested:
>
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=pY4UwgwV4RY

I listened to this again and I liked it this time in isolation. I think in the concert I must have gotten fatigued by all the 17tet to the point where I couldn't hear the good stuff in each piece anymore. Perhaps in a future project like this it would be a good idea to interleave some familiarly tuned music into concert. This would give the audience an opportunity to relax and recharge between the more exotic stuff.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...> wrote:
>
> > also, got Cirrus up here for anyone who might be interested:
> >
> > http://youtube.com/watch?v=pY4UwgwV4RY
>
> I listened to this again and I liked it this time in isolation. I
think in
> the concert I must have gotten fatigued by all the 17tet to the point
> where I couldn't hear the good stuff in each piece anymore.

I think the idea of using YouTube to show live performances is
excellent, and added something here.

> Perhaps in a
> future project like this it would be a good idea to interleave some
> familiarly tuned music into concert. This would give the audience an
> opportunity to relax and recharge between the more exotic stuff.

Not really necessary if you tuned the two pianos to 22 and not 17,
though. I still like the idea of two pianos, 22; three pianos, 34; and
four pianos, 46.

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006, Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...> wrote:
>> Perhaps in a
>> future project like this it would be a good idea to interleave some
>> familiarly tuned music into concert. This would give the audience an
>> opportunity to relax and recharge between the more exotic stuff.
>
> Not really necessary if you tuned the two pianos to 22 and not 17,

Why?

>> > also, got Cirrus up here for anyone who might be interested:
>> >
>> > http://youtube.com/watch?v=pY4UwgwV4RY
>>
>> I listened to this again and I liked it this time in isolation. I
>> think in the concert I must have gotten fatigued by all the 17tet
>> to the point where I couldn't hear the good stuff in each piece anymore.
>
>I think the idea of using YouTube to show live performances is
>excellent, and added something here.

You added what?

-Carl

I was out for some days and have no time now to check the thread, so I do not know why it is here, but "prosim" is definitely
Czech and Slovak word for "please". It can be used as reply for "thank you" too.
Milan

Jon Szanto wrote:
> Dar,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >> what is 'prosim', a yahoo group?

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/475 - Release Date: 13/10/06

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Robert walker"
<yahoogroups@...> wrote:
>
> Hi George,
>
> Sorry for the misunderstanding. Anyway, I'm interested to read
about your 17 tone
> well tempering of seventeen equal.

Hurrah! The 17-tone paper (from XH18) is finally online:
http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17puzzle.pdf

Also, the 17-WT jazz sample that I uploaded last week is now here:
http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17WTjazz.mp3
This is a recent effort, based on the 1978 (Scalatron) improvisation
mentioned on page 77 (XH18 page numbering, which appears at bottom of
page) of the paper. The MOS scale is described at the bottom of the
preceding page, and the details of the 17-WT tuning are on page 79.

It occurred to me that it would be nice to have the examples in the
paper linked to sound files (but one thing at a time -- at least now
you can read the paper).

--George

well I doesn't add anything of course, but perhaps it gives it some
breathingroom and something akin to a "frame" ?

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> >> > also, got Cirrus up here for anyone who might be interested:
> >> >
> >> > http://youtube.com/watch?v=pY4UwgwV4RY
> >>
> >> I listened to this again and I liked it this time in isolation. I
> >> think in the concert I must have gotten fatigued by all the 17tet
> >> to the point where I couldn't hear the good stuff in each piece
anymore.
> >
> >I think the idea of using YouTube to show live performances is
> >excellent, and added something here.
>
> You added what?
>
> -Carl
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...>
wrote:

>This would give the audience an
> >> opportunity to relax and recharge between the more exotic stuff.
> >
> > Not really necessary if you tuned the two pianos to 22 and not 17,
>
> Why?

Because you can sound un-exotic enough in 22 to recharge people, so
changing the tuning would not be necessary.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "George D. Secor"
<gdsecor@...> wrote:

> Hurrah! The 17-tone paper (from XH18) is finally online:
> http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17puzzle.pdf

To some small extent, this paper reads like a brief in favor of 34
tones. You feel that diatonic melody is superior with fifths sharp
around this size, but also that diatonic harmony is nonexistent. The
most direct answer is Pajara/Diaschismic[14], 14 tones of two
parallel chains of fifths. Or if you can wean yourself away from
those chains of fifths, Pajara[10] or Pajara[12] a la Paul Erlich.
Both the harmonic and melodic resources are rich enough to began
with, and of course if you've gone ahead and actually tuned an
instrument to 34 notes, as some people have managed sucessfully, you
have complete harmonic freedom--no well temperaments need apply.

I note also you mention 41 but not 46 in your paper; 41 is a
schismatic system, but 46 has fifths in the range you regard as
melodically ideal. Of course, for many purposes both have too darn
many notes.

Have you or Margo ever toyed with 46? You've mentioned you like it
better than 31, and it seems pretty well up your and Margo's line.
Smallish leading tones of 78 and 52 cents are of course available.
The leapday temperament, using 27 degrees of 46 (the fifth) as a
generator, has MOS of 12, 17 and 29 steps. The Pythagorean thirds are
much, much closer--nearly pure--to 14/11 than in the case of 17. The
17 MOS therefore has some of the advantages of a well-temperament,
whereas the 29 MOS has a variety of harmony including the good 5-
limit harmony of 46, but with all kinds of exotic possibilities. Of
course if you get away from fifths as generators other possibilities
open up, some involving rather small scales.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "George D. Secor"
> <gdsecor@> wrote:
>
> > Hurrah! The 17-tone paper (from XH18) is finally online:
> > http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17puzzle.pdf
>
> To some small extent, this paper reads like a brief in favor of 34
> tones. ...

Gene, I've replied on the main list:

/tuning/topicId_67744.html#67744

Hi George,

Thanks!, I'm enjoying reading it. Yes it makes sense that having a
semitone of just the right size may be something to do with why it
is so nice to play in melodically. Also that it fits well with a style
of composing in which the thirds are treated as mildly dissonant
rather than points of resolution, and it is intriguing to read your
speculations about the possibilities of neo medieval continuations
of medieval practice.

I enjoyed playing the first cadence in 17-et on the new FTS waveform player
today, playing it on some of its various voices! I look forward to reading the rest of it
and suggestions for concluding chords etc (I skimmed ahead a bit to see
where it is going).

Yes I agree it would be nice to be able to hear the clips - either linked
to sound files or just if one had them available in a separate window
to click on as one goes through the paper, it would
be a good addition to the article, if you get the chance to do them.

Robert

(resent - it got bounced back first time, because I sent it from my
wrong e-mail address for yahoogroups)

> Hurrah! The 17-tone paper (from XH18) is finally online:
> http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17puzzle.pdf

> Also, the 17-WT jazz sample that I uploaded last week is now here:
> http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17WTjazz.mp3
> This is a recent effort, based on the 1978 (Scalatron) improvisation
> mentioned on page 77 (XH18 page numbering, which appears at bottom of
> page) of the paper. The MOS scale is described at the bottom of the
> preceding page, and the details of the 17-WT tuning are on page 79.

It occurred to me that it would be nice to have the examples in the
paper linked to sound files (but one thing at a time -- at least now
you can read the paper).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello, everyone, and I regret that some distractions have helped to
delay my response to these two very happily near-coinciding events:
Jacob's concert of pieces in 17-EDO, and the publication of
_Xenharmonikon_ 18, including George Secor's landmark article on his
17-tone well-temperament originally published in 1978. George,
congratulations also on generously making available your article
here.

The concert, as the mp3 files show, represents both the devoted
efforts of many composers and the incredible diversity of styles and
approached which even a single tuning system can make possible. It's
curious to ask how the same pieces might have fared if Jacob's two
pianos (and flexible-pitch instruments) had been oriented instead to
George's 17-WT; as you nicely explain in your article, George, the
situation is indeed somewhat analogous to 12-EDO vs. various 12-WT
schemes.

Jacob, I'd like to congratulate you especially for your flexibility of
concept. While the ground rules of the event suggested compositions
meant for performance on the two pianos, I submitted something really
outside this agenda: a composition more inclined to performance by
three instruments, one to a melodic line, for example. Your very
creative and fitting solution was to propose a performance for string
ensemble, which I would say wonderfully fits my intentions as composer
and the nature of the music. In finding this solution you showed real
graciousness as well as musical sensitivity!

On the topic of 17-EDO/WT generally, I might offer a few comments from
the viewpoint of solo keyboard performance, which you, George, can
doubtless augment or qualify. As we both discuss in our Xenharmonikon
articles, a main characteristic of circulating 17-note tunings is that
the septimal or Archytan comma at 64:63 gets tempered out, so that one
can play the best approximations of septimal (2-3-7 prime) harmony
with usual notes and spellings. This makes life simpler, albeit with a
bit less accuracy for these ratios. Of course, with 17-WT, the rich
variety of just approximations with the interval sizes strategically
placed for combinations like 7:9:11:13 compensates for these necessary
compromises -- especially when we consider that there are only 17
notes!

At the keyboard, I can feel the difference between 17-WT or the like
and something like the Peppermint temperament, where the 64:63 is
observed and there's a constant, if often only implicit, element of
choice: "do I want a 13:11 or 7:6 minor third, a 14:11 or 9:7 major
third?" etc. In the kinds of styles I typically play, the tuning of
these imperfect consonances is rather flexible, so I sometimes freely
alternate depending on mood. However, if consistently septimal harmony
is desired, then something like 17-WT has its advantages.

Gene, your comments about the advantages of 46-EDO and related tunings
suggest that different people can sometimes arrive at similar reasons
for intriguingly distinct reasons. In 1978, George, you designed 17-WT
with the eight more remote fifths at 704.377 cents, thus producing
some pure 14:11 major thirds. Then, in 2000, not yet knowing of this
classic system, I devised a tuning with 11 fifths of this same size (a
"14:11 eventone" analogous to a meantone, as I would now describe it),
plus six wider ones to complete the circle and produce two pure 9:7
major thirds in the remote portion of the tuning. My 11 nearer fifths
would be almost identical to the 12-of-46-EDO tuning kown as
"leapday," with the remote portion of the circle rather like 22-EDO.

From a stylistic perspective, 17 may be the smallest circulating
system which can reasonably well represent intervals such as neutral
thirds and sixths, a great resource in either an equally or unequally
realization. Indeed, as Shaahin's music illustrates, these intervals
are basic to many world traditions.

I would like join with those urging that criticism posted in MMM
remain constructive and also preferably focus on the aspects of a
piece which the composer strove to create and which might help to
explain a listener's reaction. For example, if someone offered their
best effort in a 12-note well-temperament of some variety, I would not
consider it so helpful to respond:

"Another piece in a tuning without neutral thirds (sigh)."

Rather I might do better to save my sigh for a madrigal setting which
it could inspire some apt musical effect,

A final item for now: the discussion of 17 has led to questions of
larger circulating tunings which could make available additional or
more accurate just approximations. One possibility, which you might
well be able to improve further, George, is a variation on your HTT-29
where all 29 fifths are within 1/4 of an Archytas' comma of just:

! htct29b.scl
!
Circulating variation on George Secor's HTT-29
29
!
58.08982
97.04980
135.05910
179.15633
207.15739
265.24721
296.73555
347.35374
5/4
414.31478
472.40460
496.42131
554.51113
593.47110
56/39
679.56199
703.57869
761.66852
800.62849
843.77505
882.73502
910.73608
7/4
992.84261
1050.93244
1089.89241
1117.89347
1175.98329
2/1

Most appreciatively,

Margo Schulter
mschulter@...

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Margo Schulter <mschulter@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello, everyone, and I regret that some distractions have helped to
> delay my response to these two very happily near-coinciding events:
> Jacob's concert of pieces in 17-EDO, and the publication of
> _Xenharmonikon_ 18, including George Secor's landmark article on his
> 17-tone well-temperament originally published in 1978. George,
> congratulations also on generously making available your article
> here.

Thanks for your kind words, Margo.

Perhaps I should clarify (for those who haven't read the article)
that it was the *temperament* and not the article appearing in XH18
that was originally published in 1978 (in _Interval_). The article
itself was written around the time I learned that contributions were
being solicited for a new issue of XH, so readers will be getting
some of the "very latest" information on our 17-tone revolution (of
2001). ;-)

> ...
> Jacob, I'd like to congratulate you especially for your flexibility
of
> concept. While the ground rules of the event suggested compositions
> meant for performance on the two pianos, I submitted something
really
> outside this agenda: a composition more inclined to performance by
> three instruments, one to a melodic line, for example. Your very
> creative and fitting solution was to propose a performance for
string
> ensemble, which I would say wonderfully fits my intentions as
composer
> and the nature of the music. In finding this solution you showed
real
> graciousness as well as musical sensitivity!

Might I add that a reading of my paper (and yours also, should you be
making it available online) will serve to enhance the listener's
appreciation of your piece -- I couldn't help but smile when I
recognized some nice things that originally came out in the course of
our theoretical discussions.

> ...
> Gene, your comments about the advantages of 46-EDO and related
tunings
> suggest that different people can sometimes arrive at similar
reasons
> for intriguingly distinct reasons.

I need to comment further on Gene's observation that, "To some small
extent, this paper reads like a brief in favor of 34 tones." Gene, I
now realize that you were probably making an inference from my
concluding remarks about "progressing to more complex systems such as
31-ET, 41-ET ...", etc. The only place I mentioned 34-ET in the
article is in a footnote on a different page, and even there I didn't
specifically endorse it, because I didn't have a very high opinion of
34 at the time. For the record, I now consider 31 and 34 as the two
best ET's below 46 -- the former as the best meantone (narrow-fifth)
division, and the latter as the best superpythagorean-plus-pajara
(wide-fifth) division.

> ...
> From a stylistic perspective, 17 may be the smallest circulating
> system which can reasonably well represent intervals such as neutral
> thirds and sixths, a great resource in either an equally or
unequally
> realization. Indeed, as Shaahin's music illustrates, these intervals
> are basic to many world traditions.

What about 7-EDO? I think you meant to say that it's the smallest
division of the octave, having a 5th that's not excessively tempered,
that can also represent the neutral 3rds and 6ths adequately.

> ...
> A final item for now: the discussion of 17 has led to questions of
> larger circulating tunings which could make available additional or
> more accurate just approximations. One possibility, which you might
> well be able to improve further, George, is a variation on your HTT-
29
> where all 29 fifths are within 1/4 of an Archytas' comma of just:
>
> ! htct29b.scl
> !
> Circulating variation on George Secor's HTT-29
> 29
> !
> 58.08982
> 97.04980
> 135.05910
> 179.15633
> 207.15739
> 265.24721
> 296.73555
> 347.35374
> 5/4
> 414.31478
> 472.40460
> 496.42131
> 554.51113
> 593.47110
> 56/39
> 679.56199
> 703.57869
> 761.66852
> 800.62849
> 843.77505
> 882.73502
> 910.73608
> 7/4
> 992.84261
> 1050.93244
> 1089.89241
> 1117.89347
> 1175.98329
> 2/1

Well, that's workable, and you're certainly welcome to use it.

Personally, I'd prefer not to change the pitch of D(!) from what I
originally had, since it results in 5.137-cent and 10.274-cent
maximum errors in the F and Bb (i.e., 2 out of a total of 6) ogdoads,
respectively, which is excessive error IMO for a near-JI
temperament. I would instead prefer to leave the B-to-quasi-F# as a
dissonant fifth (with +13.5-cent error) that can be resolved to
something else. Since HTT is intended to mimic JI, it should be
expected to have many of the same properties, including the
occurrence of various complex intervals that only roughly approximate
simpler ones by happenstance (rather than by design).

Another consideration is that the first (or main) 17-tone "triple-
delight" subset of the complete 41-tone HTT also contains D(!), and
that tuning would suffer damage (without any benefit) from such a
modification. I did previously lower the pitch of G(!) in the 29-
tone set (from its value in the 41-tone superset, by a lesser amount
that you specify above) to make an exact 13:8 with Bb, since it
doesn't cause the error of any interval in the Bb otonal ogdoad to
exceed the 3.25-cent maximum allowed (and also since that tone
doesn't occur in any of the 17-tone subsets, which results in only a
single variance between HTT sets).

BTW, those who have read the article might wonder about the
unidentified tuning mentioned in this passage (on page 69):

<< I have tried a number of the progressions that we have discovered
in 17 WT in other tuning systems, and there is a near-just 13-limit
system (that includes ratios of 5) into which virtually everything
that we have tried can be transferred; the progressions not only
work, but they sound even better than in 17 WT! >>

The mystery tuning is, in fact, the 29-tone HTT. For further details
please see:

/makemicromusic/topicId_6820.html#6847
which references another message with .scl data:
/tuning-math/message/7574
A later message gives some information about the tempering:
/tuning-math/message/10586

--George

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "George D. Secor"
<gdsecor@...> wrote:

> I need to comment further on Gene's observation that, "To some
small
> extent, this paper reads like a brief in favor of 34 tones." Gene,
I
> now realize that you were probably making an inference from my
> concluding remarks about "progressing to more complex systems such
as
> 31-ET, 41-ET ...", etc.

More than that; also, your claim that sharp fifths were melodically
superior, and that 17-et lacks decent 5-limit harmony. Put those
together and 22, 34, or 46 look attractive. But 22 is not well enough
in tune to suit you, and 46 is more notes than 34.

My own feeling is that it depends on what mood you are looking for in
a melody.

> For the record, I now consider 31 and 34 as the two
> best ET's below 46 -- the former as the best meantone (narrow-
fifth)
> division, and the latter as the best superpythagorean-plus-pajara
> (wide-fifth) division.

Then there's 31 again as the best no-threes division, and 36 as the
best no-fives division.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>...
> > For the record, I now consider 31 and 34 as the two
> > best ET's below 46 -- the former as the best meantone (narrow-
> fifth)
> > division, and the latter as the best superpythagorean-plus-pajara
> > (wide-fifth) division.
>
> Then there's 31 again as the best no-threes division, and 36 as the
> best no-fives division.

Huh? If 31 has no threes, then what does 18deg31 represent?

--George

Dear George,

Please let me apologize for my unfortunately ambiguous language which
indeed might have let an uninitiated reader get the idea that XH18 is
carrying a reprint of your 1978 article in _Interval_ rather than the
new ones we wrote in 2001-2002!

[On Jacob's 17-EDO concert]

> Might I add that a reading of my paper (and yours also, should you
> be making it available online) will serve to enhance the listener's
> appreciation of your piece -- I couldn't help but smile when I
> recognized some nice things that originally came out in the course
> of our theoretical discussions.

Yes, while I'm excited about our papers being published in XH18, a
next logical step is to follow your admirable example of getting
things online. I'm planning on PostScript and PDF, and have noted a
few corrections I should make -- although I had four years before
publication to catch them, and they were totally my goofs.

Please let me take this opportunity to say how wonderful our dialogue
was, some of which (a small part) appears in our XH18 articles.
Really, you are a great friend, mentor, and musician.

Anyway, in the meantime, here are a PDF score for _Sub arbore_, and
also a keyboard performance which might be interesting to compare to
the flexible-pitch performance by the string ensemble at the concert:

<http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/SubArbore.pdf>
<http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/SubArbore.mp3>

The PDF file is actually in Sagittal notation for Peppermint 24 (in
turn largely based on a 121-EDO symbol set which you and Dave Keenan
devised), but can easily be read in 17 (equal or unequal) since the
only accidentals are B-half-flat (or Bd in our articles) and
E-half-flat or Ed. In a conventional 17 spelling, these would map to
D# and A#.

One of the "nice things" we might both have in mind, I suspect, are
what we decided to term "equable" cadences where a major sixth expands
to an octave, for example, with both voices moving by neutral seconds.
The portion of your article headed "Starting at the End" (pp. 71-72
in the XH18 numbering) is a fine introduction to this concept which
also captures the excitement of those first weeks of our dialogue.
There's more from both of us in my article -- when it gets online.

By the way, apart from advocating neomedieval or other styles in 17,
or in other tuning systems for ratios of 2-3-7-9-11-13, I'd see our
articles as a brief for unequal temperaments, with 17-WT as a shining
example of what creative temperament can do for a circulating system.

[On my statement about 17 as the smallest circulating system for
"neutral thirds and sixths"]

> What about 7-EDO? I think you meant to say that it's the smallest
> division of the octave, having a 5th that's not excessively
> tempered, that can also represent the neutral 3rds and 6ths
> adequately.

Of course. Maybe I could say, "the smallest division of the octave
making available a regular diatonic tuning with a full complement of
major, minor, and neutral intervals" -- or, some might prefer,
subminor and supermajor.

On my curious proposal for a circulating 29-tone system, I agree for the
reasons you eloquently state that this or similar schemes should be
clearly distinguished from the HTT family -- how about CT-29, simply
"Circulating Temperament"?

Since this is MMM, I'll offer two brief comments. The first is that indeed
it should be emphasized that in HTT-29 -- or Peppermint 24, for that
matter -- the kind of "semi-Wolf" fifth or fourth we're discussing is a
feature of the temperament rather than a "flaw." In Peppermint, G#-Eb* or
G/||\-E(!) is around 11.7 cents wide, and can be useful as a kind of
"semi-resolution" to a progression.

However, all the discussion about circulating temperaments has caused me
to consider the matter and conclude that some kind of CT-29 might be an
ideal solution for certain musical concerns -- the regular HTT-29 fifths
in my HTT-24 variation have me convinced with this, along with other
features of 29. Thus rather than simply trying a crude kludge of HTT-29
to make it more fully circulating, I might better try... a more original
and possibly sophisticated kludge, so to speak, reflecting some
consideration of my specific musical objectives, so that at least the
process may be a bit more complex than "George designs the tuning, and I
do the damage" <grin>.

Seriously, let me conclude with the hope that our articles will be
understood as not merely advocating a given variety of tuning system, but
rather as expressing a certain aesthetic stance that can apply to various
tunings and styles. The passage headed "The Resolution of the Problem of
the Resolution" in your article, pp. 73-75 in the XH pagination, is a
beauttiful example.

Peace and love, with many thanks,

Margo

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "George D. Secor" <gdsecor@...>
wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
> <genewardsmith@> wrote:

> > Then there's 31 again as the best no-threes division, and 36 as the
> > best no-fives division.
>
> Huh? If 31 has no threes, then what does 18deg31 represent?

No-threes is a way of treating the harmony. 31 does very well if you
want to ignore threes; it tempers out 3136/3125, which gives hemiwuer
without the threes. Generator of half a major third. You can regard
18deg31 as representing 512/343, which is 1029/1024 flatter than 3/2 if
you like.

George D. Secor escreveu:
> Hurrah! The 17-tone paper (from XH18) is finally online:
> http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17puzzle.pdf
> > Also, the 17-WT jazz sample that I uploaded last week is now here:
> http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17WTjazz.mp3

Hi George,

Thanks and congratulations for that quite interesting and instructive paper.

Indeed 17-EDO (and 17-WT) has atractive features, and I have made a few tryings on my keyboard (with zynaddsubfx software).

A small experiment with 17-EDO harmonic (tonal) properties --driven by leading tones and chromaticism-- is transcribed below, in ABC notation. It should be compiled with a recent version of abc2midi (http://ifdo.pugmarks.com/%7Eseymour/runabc/top.html), which implements support for linear temperaments, thanks to a contribution of code from Magnus Jonsson.

I am wondering about well-temperaments based on 19-EDO. Have you designed any ``19-WT''?

Regards,
Hudson Lacerda

------------------------------------------------------

X:1
T:17-EDO
%%MIDI ratio 3 1
%%MIDI temperamentlinear 1200.0 705.882353 % 17-EDO
M:C|
L:1/4
Q:1/4=66
K:Em
%
V:1
%%MIDI program 74
%%MIDI makechordchannels 1
|: z/^f/B/c/ _g/^c/^c | z/_g/c/_d/ ^g/^f/^f |
[M:3/2] z/a/_a/^d/ g/=f/=f/e/ =fe | [M:C|] g2 ^d2 :|
%
V:2
%%MIDI program 16
%%MIDI makechordchannels 1
|: [E,G,]2[^D,_A,]2 | [_E,^G,]2[D,A,]2 |
[M:3/2] [^C,_B,]2[_D,^A,]2 [C,-B,] < [C,=A,] |
[M:C|] [B,,-C]2 [B,,A,]2 :|

------------------------------------------------------

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Margo Schulter escreveu:
> The concert, as the mp3 files show, represents both the devoted
> efforts of many composers and the incredible diversity of styles and
> approached which even a single tuning system can make possible. It's
> curious to ask how the same pieces might have fared if Jacob's two
> pianos (and flexible-pitch instruments) had been oriented instead to
> George's 17-WT; as you nicely explain in your article, George, the
> situation is indeed somewhat analogous to 12-EDO vs. various 12-WT
> schemes.

Hi Margo and Jacob,

Sorry, I am not up to date reading the messages in this list, but:
Were can I download the mp3 files of the 17-EDo piano concerto from?

Best,
Hudson Lacerda

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<www.archive.org/details/seventeenTPP_02>

enjoy-

-jacob

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Margo and Jacob,
>
> Sorry, I am not up to date reading the messages in this list, but:
> Were can I download the mp3 files of the 17-EDo piano concerto from?
>
> Best,
> Hudson Lacerda
>
> --
> '-------------------------------------------------------------------.
> Hudson Lacerda http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/
>
> microabc -- free software for microtonal music
> http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc-about.html
>
> *NÃO DEIXE SEU VOTO SUMIR! http://www.votoseguro.org/
> *Apóie o Manifesto: http://www.votoseguro.com/alertaprofessores/
> .-------------------------------------------------------------------'
> --
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________
> Novidade no Yahoo! Mail: receba alertas de novas mensagens no seu
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>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda
<hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
>
> George D. Secor escreveu:
> > Hurrah! The 17-tone paper (from XH18) is finally online:
> > http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17puzzle.pdf
> >
> > Also, the 17-WT jazz sample that I uploaded last week is now here:
> > http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17WTjazz.mp3
>
> Hi George,
>
> Thanks and congratulations for that quite interesting and
instructive paper.
>
> Indeed 17-EDO (and 17-WT) has atractive features, and I have made a
few
> tryings on my keyboard (with zynaddsubfx software).

Thank you for trying this out. My paper is a consolidation of nearly
40 years of accumulated thoughts, ideas, and observations of both
myself and others. I was hoping that it would be helpful to those
who wish to write music in new tunings using more traditional
principles of composition that would be familiar (and therefore
comprehensible) to those outside the xenharmonic movement.

> ...
> I am wondering about well-temperaments based on 19-EDO. Have you
> designed any "19-WT''?

Yes, it was mentioned in the paper in the last paragraph of page 63
and in the 2nd paragraph of page 64. With the 19+3 temperament my
objective was to devise a *multi-purpose* alternative tuning for an
acoustic keyboard instrument (such as the accordion), on which it is
not practical to have more than a single tuning. Please see this
message for details:
/tuning/topicId_38076.html#38287

The tones of the 19+3 temperament can also be logically organized for
pitched percussion (marimba, xylophone, etc.) as shown here:
/tuning/topicId_38076.html#38356

Since those messages, I've adjusted the sizes of the fifths so that
the 10 best major triads are *exactly equal-beating* (beat ratio for
5th-M3-m3 in root position triad of 1:1:1), so the following data
should be used in Scala (set nota sa38, set sagi mixed):

! secor_19p3.scl
!
George Secor's 19+3 well temperament with ten ~5/17-comma (equal-
beating) fifths and 3 pure 9:11
! Aux=1,10,19
22
!
34.29925
69.41306
131.54971
191.26088
260.67394
317.95963
382.52175
451.93481
504.36956
538.66882
573.78263
638.34474
695.63044
765.04350
824.75467
886.89131
956.30438
1011.16460
1043.03838
1078.15219
1145.13978
2/1

Be sure to try the 6:7:9:11:13 approximations on C-D#-G-Bv-Db, G-A#-D-
F^-Ab, and D-E#-A-C^-Eb -- the 7:9:11 portions are almost exact.

--George

George D. Secor escreveu:

>>>Hurrah! The 17-tone paper (from XH18) is finally online:
>>>http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17puzzle.pdf

>>>Also, the 17-WT jazz sample that I uploaded last week is now here:
>>>http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17WTjazz.mp3

> Thank you for trying this out. My paper is a consolidation of nearly > 40 years of accumulated thoughts, ideas, and observations of both > myself and others. I was hoping that it would be helpful to those > who wish to write music in new tunings using more traditional > principles of composition that would be familiar (and therefore > comprehensible) to those outside the xenharmonic movement.

I've transcribed the figures 5 and 6 from your paper to ABC -- the MIDI/PDF/source files are here:
http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/17wt.zip

And here are the MIDI and PDF files for the short experiment I mentioned in a previous message (in 17-EDO):
http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/teste17edo1.mid
http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/teste17edo.pdf

Revised ABC code:

X:1
T:17-EDO
%%MIDI ratio 3 1
%%MIDI temperamentlinear 1200.0 705.882353 % 17-EDO
M:C|
L:1/4
Q:1/4=66
K:Em
%
V:1
%%MIDI program 74
%%MIDI makechordchannels 1
|: z/^f/B/c/ _g/^c/^c | z/_g/c/_d/ ^g/^f/^f |
[M:3/2] z/a/_a/^d/ g/=f/=f/e/ =fe | [M:C|] g2 ^d2 :|
%
V:2
%%MIDI program 16
%%MIDI makechordchannels 1
|: [E,G,]2[^D,_A,]2 | [_E,^G,]2[D,A,]2 |
[M:3/2] [^C,_B,]2[_D,^A,]2 [=C,-B,] < [C,=A,] |\
[M:C|] [B,,-C]2 [B,,A,]2 :|

>>I am wondering about well-temperaments based on 19-EDO. Have you >>designed any "19-WT''?
> > > Yes, it was mentioned in the paper in the last paragraph of page 63 > and in the 2nd paragraph of page 64. With the 19+3 temperament my > objective was to devise a *multi-purpose* alternative tuning for an > acoustic keyboard instrument (such as the accordion), on which it is > not practical to have more than a single tuning. Please see this > message for details:
> /tuning/topicId_38076.html#38287
> > The tones of the 19+3 temperament can also be logically organized for > pitched percussion (marimba, xylophone, etc.) as shown here:
> /tuning/topicId_38076.html#38356

That scale is excellent! But, it has 22 tones per octave -- it is a bit too much for the glass marimba I want to build next year. It seems that I will stick with 19-EDO for it. The keyboard layout will be:

B# Db D# E# Gb Ab A# B# <- A# Major Scale
C# Eb F# G# Bb <- Often used accidentals
C D E F G A B C <- C Major Scale

Cheers,
Hudson

--
'-------------------------------------------------------------------.
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microabc -- free software for microtonal music
http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc-about.html

*N�O DEIXE SEU VOTO SUMIR! http://www.votoseguro.org/
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>> Thank you for trying this out. My paper is a consolidation of nearly
>> 40 years of accumulated thoughts, ideas, and observations of both
>> myself and others. I was hoping that it would be helpful to those
>> who wish to write music in new tunings using more traditional
>> principles of composition that would be familiar (and therefore
>> comprehensible) to those outside the xenharmonic movement.
>
>I've transcribed the figures 5 and 6 from your paper to ABC -- the
>MIDI/PDF/source files are here:
>http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/17wt.zip
>
>And here are the MIDI and PDF files for the short experiment I mentioned
>in a previous message (in 17-EDO):
>http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/teste17edo1.mid
>http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/teste17edo.pdf

Wow, love the .mid. That's an awesome theme!

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda
<hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
>
> George D. Secor escreveu:
>
> >>>Hurrah! The 17-tone paper (from XH18) is finally online:
> >>>http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17puzzle.pdf
> ...
> I've transcribed the figures 5 and 6 from your paper to ABC -- the
> MIDI/PDF/source files are here:
> http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/17wt.zip

Thanks. I won't be able to listen to the sound files until later.
The PDF file looks much nicer than the crude bitmap examples I did
(but it would be nice if the "links" had been saved as hypertext).

> ...
> >>I am wondering about well-temperaments based on 19-EDO. Have you
> >>designed any "19-WT''?
> >
> > Yes, it was mentioned in the paper in the last paragraph of page
63
> > and in the 2nd paragraph of page 64. With the 19+3 temperament
my
> > objective was to devise a *multi-purpose* alternative tuning for
an
> > acoustic keyboard instrument (such as the accordion), on which it
is
> > not practical to have more than a single tuning. Please see this
> > message for details:
> > /tuning/topicId_38076.html#38287
> >
> > The tones of the 19+3 temperament can also be logically organized
for
> > pitched percussion (marimba, xylophone, etc.) as shown here:
> > /tuning/topicId_38076.html#38356
>
> That scale is excellent! But, it has 22 tones per octave -- it is a
bit
> too much for the glass marimba I want to build next year. It seems
that
> I will stick with 19-EDO for it. The keyboard layout will be:
>
> B# Db D# E# Gb Ab A# B# <- A# Major Scale
> C# Eb F# G# Bb <- Often used accidentals
> C D E F G A B C <- C Major Scale

19+3 is "a bit too much" in what respect? 22 tones per octave is not
very much more than 19, and the arrangement I came up with (below)
doesn't require any more space than what you show above (assuming
that the bars in neighboring rows are interleaved).

C+ Db D# E# F+ Gb G# A# Bd B# C+
Eb Ab
C C# D E F F# G A Bb B C

You can see the 7 naturals most easily if you color the 5 flats
darker than the rest. The 8:9:10:11:12:13:14:15:16 patterns
(starting on F, C, and G) would be exactly alike if the Eb and Ab
were moved into the top row (which would be necessary anyway, if the
instrument had both dampers and vertical tubular resonators.

Anyway, if you left off the "+3" tones, you would be left with the 19-
tone well-temperament, although it's questionable whether 19-WT
(without the 11's) would have any advantage over 19-ET in a marimba.

Wait a moment! Since you said that this instrument would be played
using a *keyboard*(!?), then a generalized key arrangement would be
much better, e.g., an adaptation of Erv Wilson's clavichord keyboard
(here, beginning on page 6):

http://www.anaphoria.com/xen456.PDF

In the actual instrument, Erv provided duplicate E# and B# key
surfaces (attached to the levers for Fb and Cb).

--George

>> B# Db D# E# Gb Ab A# B# <- A# Major Scale
>> C# Eb F# G# Bb <- Often used accidentals
>> C D E F G A B C <- C Major Scale
> > > 19+3 is "a bit too much" in what respect? 22 tones per octave is not > very much more than 19, and the arrangement I came up with (below) > doesn't require any more space than what you show above (assuming > that the bars in neighboring rows are interleaved).
> > C+ Db D# E# F+ Gb G# A# Bd B# C+
> Eb Ab
> C C# D E F F# G A Bb B C

Glass marimba is a large instrument. I would like to have a range of 2.5 octaves. A 12-EDO glass marimba with that range have a length of 1.3m and uses 2 boxes (cases). My future 19-EDO marimba would take 30% more length and it will need 3 wood boxes (cases).

> Anyway, if you left off the "+3" tones, you would be left with the 19-
> tone well-temperament, although it's questionable whether 19-WT > (without the 11's) would have any advantage over 19-ET in a marimba.

The spectrum is inharmonic:

Mode 1: 1
Mode 2: 2.757
Mode 3: 5.404
Mode 4: 8.933
Mode 5: 13.344
Mode 6: 18.638
Mode 7: 24.814
Mode 8: 31.872

> Wait a moment! Since you said that this instrument would be played > using a *keyboard*(!?),

Percussion players use to call by ``keyboards'' the intruments like marimba, xylophone or vibes.

--
'-------------------------------------------------------------------.
Hudson Lacerda http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/

microabc -- free software for microtonal music
http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc-about.html

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Carl Lumma escreveu:
>>http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/teste17edo1.mid
>>http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/teste17edo.pdf
> > > Wow, love the .mid. That's an awesome theme!

Thanks, Carl. It is somewhat inspired on the theme of the "Passacaglia Opus 1" by Anton Webern. Maybe I will want to develop some /diferencias/ latter. Someone else might to compose variations. Feel free :-)

Hudson

--
'-------------------------------------------------------------------.
Hudson Lacerda http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/

microabc -- free software for microtonal music
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On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Carl Lumma wrote:

>> And here are the MIDI and PDF files for the short experiment I mentioned
>> in a previous message (in 17-EDO):
>> http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/teste17edo1.mid
>> http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/teste17edo.pdf
>
> Wow, love the .mid. That's an awesome theme!
>
> -Carl

Wow Carl, you are right :)
It makes me nostalgic about video games.
I can finally see why 17edo can be worth giving some attention.
However, I'm a little confused as to where that nice 5:4 comes from.
17edo's closest approximation to 5/4 is 2^(6/17) or 1.277 which
doesn't seem all that good to me. Maybe it's the dull timbre?

/ Magnus

> The spectrum is inharmonic:
>
> Mode 1: 1
> Mode 2: 2.757
> Mode 3: 5.404
> Mode 4: 8.933
> Mode 5: 13.344
> Mode 6: 18.638
> Mode 7: 24.814
> Mode 8: 31.872
>

(Octaving down):

Mode 1: 1
Mode 2: 2.757 555 cents, 11/8 is 551.318
Mode 3: 5.404 520.8 cents, 27/20 is 519.551
Mode 4: 8.933 191 cents, 19/17 is 192.558
Mode 5: 13.344 885.7 cents, 5/3 is 884.359
Mode 6: 18.638 264 cents, 7/6 is 266.8
Mode 7: 24.814 759 cents, 14/9 is 764.916
Mode 8: 31.872 1193 cents, 2/1 is 1200

Hmmm, maybe something near a 19-tone equal (19/17, 3°19-EDO and one
of your harmonics octaved down all fall within a 3 cent window), and
aiming toward 5:6:7:8:9:10:11 would work very well.

A few years of measuring "random samples" of acoustic instruments
has led me to believe that there is a great deal of harmonicity
in "inharmonic" sounds, and that the ideal against which they should
be measured varies, falling into several classes, not just an ideal
fixed string.

-Cameron Bobro

Actually now that I check it out again, George Secor's 19+3 would
probably be very good with your overtones. You might try
synthesizing a kind of "cartoon" with the partials you have, and
trying it with different tunings.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "misterbobro"
<misterbobro@...> wrote:
>
> > The spectrum is inharmonic:
> >
> > Mode 1: 1
> > Mode 2: 2.757
> > Mode 3: 5.404
> > Mode 4: 8.933
> > Mode 5: 13.344
> > Mode 6: 18.638
> > Mode 7: 24.814
> > Mode 8: 31.872
> >
>
> (Octaving down):
>
> Mode 1: 1
> Mode 2: 2.757 555 cents, 11/8 is 551.318
> Mode 3: 5.404 520.8 cents, 27/20 is 519.551
> Mode 4: 8.933 191 cents, 19/17 is 192.558
> Mode 5: 13.344 885.7 cents, 5/3 is 884.359
> Mode 6: 18.638 264 cents, 7/6 is 266.8
> Mode 7: 24.814 759 cents, 14/9 is 764.916
> Mode 8: 31.872 1193 cents, 2/1 is 1200
>
>
> Hmmm, maybe something near a 19-tone equal (19/17, 3°19-EDO and
one
> of your harmonics octaved down all fall within a 3 cent window),
and
> aiming toward 5:6:7:8:9:10:11 would work very well.
>
> A few years of measuring "random samples" of acoustic instruments
> has led me to believe that there is a great deal of harmonicity
> in "inharmonic" sounds, and that the ideal against which they
should
> be measured varies, falling into several classes, not just an
ideal
> fixed string.
>
> -Cameron Bobro
>

Magnus Jonsson escreveu:
>>>http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/teste17edo1.mid
>>>http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/teste17edo.pdf

> I can finally see why 17edo can be worth giving some attention.
> However, I'm a little confused as to where that nice 5:4 comes from.
> 17edo's closest approximation to 5/4 is 2^(6/17) or 1.277 which
> doesn't seem all that good to me. Maybe it's the dull timbre?

I think it is a combination of your imagination and some help of the timbres (strong 2 and 3, weak or absent 5). Try it with other timbres:

timidity teste17edo1.mid -EI00
timidity teste17edo1.mid -EI23
timidity teste17edo1.mid -EI44

I didn't like that theme in 17-WT, exactly because the theme is based on (tempered) intervals involving 5.

However, Secor's 17-tone well temperament is simply fantastic! You all definitely need try it! The qualitative differences from 17-EDO are really strong (forget the harshness of 17-EDO intervals), and there are very interesting and effective consonances/dissonances based on 3 7 9 11 13.

! 17wt.scl
! Well Temperament 17 - George Secor
Well Temperament 17 - George Secor
17
!
66.741
144.856
214.441
278.339
353.610
428.882
492.780
562.364
640.479
707.220
771.118
849.233
921.661
985.559
1057.987
1136.102
2/1

--
'-------------------------------------------------------------------.
Hudson Lacerda http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/

microabc -- free software for microtonal music
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Do I sense a full composition based on this theme brewing?
I just sent it to a friend last night... I think it's one of
the coolest things in 17 I've heard. I bet AKJ would like
it, if he's still reading the list.

-C.

At 11:05 AM 10/28/2006, you wrote:
>Magnus Jonsson escreveu:
>>>>http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/teste17edo1.mid
>>>>http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/teste17edo.pdf
>
>> I can finally see why 17edo can be worth giving some attention.
>> However, I'm a little confused as to where that nice 5:4 comes from.
>> 17edo's closest approximation to 5/4 is 2^(6/17) or 1.277 which
>> doesn't seem all that good to me. Maybe it's the dull timbre?
>
>I think it is a combination of your imagination and some help of the
>timbres (strong 2 and 3, weak or absent 5). Try it with other timbres:
>
>timidity teste17edo1.mid -EI00
>timidity teste17edo1.mid -EI23
>timidity teste17edo1.mid -EI44
>
>I didn't like that theme in 17-WT, exactly because the theme is based on
>(tempered) intervals involving 5.
>
>However, Secor's 17-tone well temperament is simply fantastic! You all
>definitely need try it! The qualitative differences from 17-EDO are
>really strong (forget the harshness of 17-EDO intervals), and there are
>very interesting and effective consonances/dissonances based on 3 7 9 11 13.
>
>! 17wt.scl
>! Well Temperament 17 - George Secor
>Well Temperament 17 - George Secor
>17
>!
> 66.741
> 144.856
> 214.441
> 278.339
> 353.610
> 428.882
> 492.780
> 562.364
> 640.479
> 707.220
> 771.118
> 849.233
> 921.661
> 985.559
> 1057.987
> 1136.102
>2/1

On 17/10/06, George D. Secor <gdsecor@...> wrote:

> Hurrah! The 17-tone paper (from XH18) is finally online:
> http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17puzzle.pdf

Well, thanks! I haven't finished reading it yet, but you say that 17
is a better system than most people would think. So I decided to
check that. I've modified the script I wrote for Carl recently to
list the best equal temperaments that include approximations to 2 and
3.

And, the result is that it does fairly well. Here are the results for
TOP-max errors and primes up to 13:

2.3.11-limit <24, 38, 83]
2.3.13-limit <17, 27, 63]
2.3.7-limit <36, 57, 101]
2.3.11.13-limit <17, 27, 59, 63]
2.3.11-limit <17, 27, 59]
2.3.7.13-limit <36, 57, 101, 133]
2.3.13-limit <36, 57, 133]
2.3.7-limit <5, 8, 14]
2.3.11-limit <7, 11, 24]
2.3.5.13-limit <34, 54, 79, 126]
2.3.5-limit <34, 54, 79]
2.3.13-limit <34, 54, 126]
2.3.5-limit <12, 19, 28]
2.3.5-limit <19, 30, 44]
2.3.11.13-limit <24, 38, 83, 89]
2.3.13-limit <24, 38, 89]
2.3.5.13-limit <19, 30, 44, 70]
2.3.13-limit <19, 30, 70]
2.3.7.11-limit <31, 49, 87, 107]
2.3.7-limit <31, 49, 87]
2.3.11-limit <31, 49, 107]
2.3.7-limit <22, 35, 62]
2.3.13-limit <7, 11, 26]
2.3.11.13-limit <7, 11, 24, 26]
2.3.5.7.11-limit <31, 49, 72, 87, 107]
2.3.5.7-limit <31, 49, 72, 87]
2.3.5.11-limit <31, 49, 72, 107]
2.3.5-limit <31, 49, 72]
2.3.13-limit <10, 16, 37]
2.3.7.11.13-limit <17, 27, 48, 59, 63]
2.3.7.11-limit <17, 27, 48, 59]
2.3.7.13-limit <17, 27, 48, 63]
2.3.7-limit <17, 27, 48]
2.3.13-limit <29, 46, 107]
2.3.5.11.13-limit <34, 54, 79, 118, 126]

17 does unusually well, but not that well with 7. There are all kinds
of arbitrarinesses here. Insisting on good fifths is bound to favor
17. I'm not listing 41-equal or anything bigger. Adding 17 and 19
will greatly favor 12 and multiples thereof. TOP-RMS error happens to
make 17 look better than TOP-max.

So, what about those higher primes? To keep the list short I'm
ignoring anything bigger than 28-equal. My reasoning is that if
you're looking at 17, you must think 34 is too big because you get the
same things with better harmony. And if you don't want 34, 31 is
probably too big as well. And once 31 gets excluded it's a bit silly
to let 29 get in there.

2.3.17-limit <12, 19, 49]
2.3.19-limit <12, 19, 51]
2.3.17.19-limit <12, 19, 49, 51]
2.3.11-limit <24, 38, 83]
2.3.11.17-limit <24, 38, 83, 98]
2.3.17-limit <24, 38, 98]
2.3.11.19-limit <24, 38, 83, 102]
2.3.11.17.19-limit <24, 38, 83, 98, 102]
2.3.13-limit <17, 27, 63]
2.3.19-limit <24, 38, 102]
2.3.17.19-limit <24, 38, 98, 102]
2.3.11.13-limit <17, 27, 59, 63]
2.3.11-limit <17, 27, 59]
2.3.11.13.19-limit <24, 38, 83, 89, 102]
2.3.11.13.17.19-limit <24, 38, 83, 89, 98, 102]
2.3.7-limit <5, 8, 14]
2.3.5.17.19-limit <12, 19, 28, 49, 51]
2.3.5.19-limit <12, 19, 28, 51]
2.3.13.19-limit <24, 38, 89, 102]
2.3.11.13.17-limit <24, 38, 83, 89, 98]
2.3.13.17.19-limit <24, 38, 89, 98, 102]
2.3.11.13-limit <24, 38, 83, 89]
2.3.11-limit <7, 11, 24]
2.3.5.17-limit <12, 19, 28, 49]
2.3.5-limit <19, 30, 44]
2.3.13.17-limit <24, 38, 89, 98]
2.3.5-limit <12, 19, 28]
2.3.13-limit <24, 38, 89]
2.3.5.13-limit <19, 30, 44, 70]
2.3.7.11.13-limit <17, 27, 48, 59, 63]
2.3.13.19-limit <17, 27, 63, 72]
2.3.19-limit <17, 27, 72]
2.3.7.11-limit <17, 27, 48, 59]
2.3.17-limit <22, 35, 90]

There are two things to note here. One is that 17-equal does 19
better than 7, so if you don't mention 19 you probably weren't
interested in it. Another is that 24-equal does very well. If
17-equal has been neglected, what about 24? It's degenerate in the
5-limit, inconsistent in the 7-limit, and a lazy choice for people
used to 12. But it also has good approximations to a lot of higher
primes.

Any talk about the methodology should go to tuning-math and I'll try
to get a post together there.

Graham

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Graham Breed" <gbreed@...>
wrote:
>
> On 17/10/06, George D. Secor <gdsecor@...> wrote:
>
> > Hurrah! The 17-tone paper (from XH18) is finally online:
> > http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17puzzle.pdf
>
> Well, thanks! I haven't finished reading it yet, but you say that
17
> is a better system than most people would think. So I decided to
> check that. ...
>
> 17 does unusually well, but not that well with 7. There are all
kinds
> of arbitrarinesses here. Insisting on good fifths is bound to favor
> 17. ...
>
> So, what about those higher primes? To keep the list short I'm
> ignoring anything bigger than 28-equal. My reasoning is that if
> you're looking at 17, you must think 34 is too big because you get
the
> same things with better harmony. And if you don't want 34, 31 is
> probably too big as well. And once 31 gets excluded it's a bit
silly
> to let 29 get in there.

Thanks for your message, Graham, but I think that you might have
saved yourself some time & effort if you had read the entire paper
before replying.

I wasn't thinking that 31 or 34 are too big, or trying to figure out
what division will do such-and-such the best. I take the reverse
approach by *starting* with 17 and then trying to figure out what to
do with it. I observe that 17 has good 5ths and semitones with a
very nice melodic effect, but it's a challenge to figure out how to
get some decent harmony out of it. In the paper I explain that this
can be accomplished more effectively using a *well-temperament*
rather than the ET.

> ...
> Any talk about the methodology should go to tuning-math and I'll try
> to get a post together there.

Okay, I'll watch for it.

--George

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda
<hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
>
> Magnus Jonsson escreveu:
> >>>http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/teste17edo1.mid
> >>>http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/teste17edo.pdf
>
> > I can finally see why 17edo can be worth giving some attention.
> > However, I'm a little confused as to where that nice 5:4 comes
from.
> > 17edo's closest approximation to 5/4 is 2^(6/17) or 1.277 which
> > doesn't seem all that good to me. Maybe it's the dull timbre?
>
> I think it is a combination of your imagination and some help of
the
> timbres (strong 2 and 3, weak or absent 5). Try it with other
timbres:
>
> timidity teste17edo1.mid -EI00
> timidity teste17edo1.mid -EI23
> timidity teste17edo1.mid -EI44
>
> I didn't like that theme in 17-WT, exactly because the theme is
based on
> (tempered) intervals involving 5.
>
> However, Secor's 17-tone well temperament is simply fantastic! You
all
> definitely need try it! The qualitative differences from 17-EDO are
> really strong (forget the harshness of 17-EDO intervals), and there
are
> very interesting and effective consonances/dissonances based on 3 7
9 11 13.

Hudson, thanks for your kind words & especially your enthusiasm --
you've made my day!

> ! 17wt.scl
> ! Well Temperament 17 - George Secor
> Well Temperament 17 - George Secor
> 17
> !
> 66.741
> 144.856
> 214.441
> 278.339
> 353.610
> 428.882
> 492.780
> 562.364
> 640.479
> 707.220
> 771.118
> 849.233
> 921.661
> 985.559
> 1057.987
> 1136.102
> 2/1

For anyone else reading this, before trying out the above well-
temperament, *please* read my 17-tone paper in its entirety:
http://xenharmony.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/17puzzle.pdf

Otherwise, I guarantee that you won't understand it.

--George

George D. Secor escreveu:
>> However, Secor's 17-tone well temperament is simply fantastic! You >> all definitely need try it! The qualitative differences from 17-EDO
>> are really strong (forget the harshness of 17-EDO intervals), and
>> there are very interesting and effective consonances/dissonances
>> based on 3 7 9 11 13.
> > Hudson, thanks for your kind words & especially your enthusiasm -- > you've made my day!

Hi George and all there,

I have recorded an improvisation on a couple of chords: [ACDE] and [_BCDE] ( _B == B-flat ). Synthesized sounds are of zynaddsubfx (synthpad2 + sinepad, default reverb effect). Scale is George Secor's 17-tone well temperament.

The improvisation is ``new-age-like'', but I think it shows a bit of the harmonic and melodic potentials of 17WT.

It is coded in a relatively low-quality ogg vorbis file, and zipped:

http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/impro.zip

(It will be available online for a few days only -- the storage space in geocities is very limited for media).

Regards,
Hudson

--
'-------------------------------------------------------------------.
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microabc -- free software for microtonal music
http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc-about.html

*N�O DEIXE SEU VOTO SUMIR! http://www.votoseguro.org/
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Well it sounds very good to me! (and not "new-age", or "world" or
New World Order Muzak or whatever). ZynSubAddFX takes Scala files
directly? Because it sounds tuned with extreme accuracy, and good
choice of timbre. The upward flutters and drooping bits are really
nice.

-Cameron Bobro

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda
<hfmlacerda@...> wrote:

> I have recorded an improvisation on a couple of chords: [ACDE] and
> [_BCDE] ( _B == B-flat ). Synthesized sounds are of zynaddsubfx
> (synthpad2 + sinepad, default reverb effect). Scale is George
Secor's
> 17-tone well temperament.
>
> The improvisation is ``new-age-like'', but I think it shows a bit
of the
> harmonic and melodic potentials of 17WT.
>
> It is coded in a relatively low-quality ogg vorbis file, and
zipped:
>
> http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/impro.zip
>
> (It will be available online for a few days only -- the storage
space in
> geocities is very limited for media).
>
> Regards,
> Hudson
>
> --
> '---------------------------------------------------------------
----.
> Hudson Lacerda http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/
>
> microabc -- free software for microtonal music
> http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc-about.html
>
> *NÏ DEIXE SEU VOTO SUMIR! http://www.votoseguro.org/
> *Apó©¥ o Manifesto:
http://www.votoseguro.com/alertaprofessores/
> .---------------------------------------------------------------
----'
> --
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________
> Novidade no Yahoo! Mail: receba alertas de novas mensagens no seu
celular. Registre seu aparelho agora!
> http://br.mobile.yahoo.com/mailalertas/
>

misterbobro escreveu:
> Well it sounds very good to me! (and not "new-age", or "world" or > New World Order Muzak or whatever).

Thanks!

> ZynSubAddFX takes Scala files directly?

Yes.

> Because it sounds tuned with extreme accuracy, and good > choice of timbre. The upward flutters and drooping bits are really > nice. > > -Cameron Bobro

Regards,
Hudson

> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda > <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
> > >>I have recorded an improvisation on a couple of chords: [ACDE] and >>[_BCDE] ( _B == B-flat ). Synthesized sounds are of zynaddsubfx >>(synthpad2 + sinepad, default reverb effect). Scale is George > > Secor's > >>17-tone well temperament.
>>
>>The improvisation is ``new-age-like'', but I think it shows a bit > > of the > >>harmonic and melodic potentials of 17WT.
>>
>>It is coded in a relatively low-quality ogg vorbis file, and > > zipped:
> >> http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/impro.zip
>>
>>(It will be available online for a few days only -- the storage > > space in > >>geocities is very limited for media).
>>
>>Regards,
>>Hudson

--
'-------------------------------------------------------------------.
Hudson Lacerda http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/

microabc -- free software for microtonal music
http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc-about.html

*N�O DEIXE SEU VOTO SUMIR! http://www.votoseguro.org/
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--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>
wrote:
>
> misterbobro escreveu:
> > Well it sounds very good to me! (and not "new-age", or "world" or
> > New World Order Muzak or whatever).
>
> Thanks!
>
> > ZynSubAddFX takes Scala files directly?
>
> Yes.

What kind of Scala files? Do you mean you can feed it a Scala seq file
(Scala score) and it will play it?

Gene,

{you wrote...}
>What kind of Scala files? Do you mean you can feed it a Scala seq file (Scala score) and it will play it?

No. I don't know of any _instruments_ that play Scala .seq files. Pretty much any reference you see like this means that they can load Scala .scl files, and the instrument will then play in that tuning. Zyn also can utilize the Scala .kbm mapping files.

Cheers,
Jon

Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>
> wrote:
> >>misterbobro escreveu:
>>
>>>Well it sounds very good to me! (and not "new-age", or "world" or >>>New World Order Muzak or whatever).
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>
>>>ZynSubAddFX takes Scala files directly?
>>
>>Yes.
> > > What kind of Scala files? Do you mean you can feed it a Scala seq file
> (Scala score) and it will play it?

No, we mean *.scl files. The improvisation was played on a MIDI keyboard and synthesized and recorded to a .wav file with zynaddsubfx; then the .wav was compressed to ogg Vorbis.

--
'-------------------------------------------------------------------.
Hudson Lacerda http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/

microabc -- free software for microtonal music
http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc-about.html

*N�O DEIXE SEU VOTO SUMIR! http://www.votoseguro.org/
*Ap�ie o Manifesto: http://www.votoseguro.com/alertaprofessores/
.-------------------------------------------------------------------'
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Thanks for the ogg. I too like using zynaddsubfx, but with a slower
attack. This is with the padsynth patch called 'sine2x'. The
tuning is '1/1 8/7 7/6 9/7 7/5 10/7 12/7 7/4 2/1', just a lot of
sevens. I mapped it to 'C D D# F# G A A# C' on the keyboard. The G
is really another F#. Then I went through the chords scala gave me.
The A# chords at the end are a little jolting.

http://www.yousendit.com/download/kF3KwuwAp3k%3D

Joe

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda
<hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
>
> George D. Secor escreveu:
> >> However, Secor's 17-tone well temperament is simply fantastic!
You
> >> all definitely need try it! The qualitative differences from 17-
EDO
> >> are really strong (forget the harshness of 17-EDO intervals),
and
> >> there are very interesting and effective
consonances/dissonances
> >> based on 3 7 9 11 13.
> >
> > Hudson, thanks for your kind words & especially your enthusiasm -
-
> > you've made my day!
>
> Hi George and all there,
>
> I have recorded an improvisation on a couple of chords: [ACDE] and
> [_BCDE] ( _B == B-flat ). Synthesized sounds are of zynaddsubfx
> (synthpad2 + sinepad, default reverb effect). Scale is George
Secor's
> 17-tone well temperament.
>
> The improvisation is ``new-age-like'', but I think it shows a bit
of the
> harmonic and melodic potentials of 17WT.
>
> It is coded in a relatively low-quality ogg vorbis file, and
zipped:
>
> http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/impro.zip
>
> (It will be available online for a few days only -- the storage
space in
> geocities is very limited for media).
>
> Regards,
> Hudson
>
> --
> '---------------------------------------------------------------
----.
> Hudson Lacerda http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/
>
> microabc -- free software for microtonal music
> http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc-about.html
>
> *NÃO DEIXE SEU VOTO SUMIR! http://www.votoseguro.org/
> *Apóie o Manifesto:
http://www.votoseguro.com/alertaprofessores/
> .---------------------------------------------------------------
----'
> --
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________
> Novidade no Yahoo! Mail: receba alertas de novas mensagens no seu
celular. Registre seu aparelho agora!
> http://br.mobile.yahoo.com/mailalertas/
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda
<hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
>
> George D. Secor escreveu:
> >> However, Secor's 17-tone well temperament is simply fantastic!
You
> >> all definitely need try it! The qualitative differences from 17-
EDO
> >> are really strong (forget the harshness of 17-EDO intervals), and
> >> there are very interesting and effective consonances/dissonances
> >> based on 3 7 9 11 13.
> >
> > Hudson, thanks for your kind words & especially your enthusiasm --

> > you've made my day!
>
> Hi George and all there,
>
> I have recorded an improvisation on a couple of chords: [ACDE] and
> [_BCDE] ( _B == B-flat ). Synthesized sounds are of zynaddsubfx
> (synthpad2 + sinepad, default reverb effect). Scale is George
Secor's
> 17-tone well temperament.
>
> The improvisation is ``new-age-like'', but I think it shows a bit
of the
> harmonic and melodic potentials of 17WT.

Hudson, this is wonderful! -- and it does indeed show many of the
possibilities of 17-WT.

The 6:7:8:9 accompaniment with D=8 sounds very restful, and changing
just one note to give a 7:8:9:/10 (quasi-10, about a comma higher
than just, which adds a touch of restlessness) with C=8 was a stroke
of genius!

And those chords with the 11's and 13's really ring!

Encore, encore!

--George

Thank you, George.
Hudson

George D. Secor escreveu:
> Hudson, this is wonderful! -- and it does indeed show many of the > possibilities of 17-WT.
> > The 6:7:8:9 accompaniment with D=8 sounds very restful, and changing > just one note to give a 7:8:9:/10 (quasi-10, about a comma higher > than just, which adds a touch of restlessness) with C=8 was a stroke > of genius!
> > And those chords with the 11's and 13's really ring!
> > Encore, encore!
> > --George

--
'-------------------------------------------------------------------.
Hudson Lacerda http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/

microabc -- free software for microtonal music
http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc-about.html

*N�O DEIXE SEU VOTO SUMIR! http://www.votoseguro.org/
*Ap�ie o Manifesto: http://www.votoseguro.com/alertaprofessores/
.-------------------------------------------------------------------'
--

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