Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Some ideas for microtonal guitars & software

I don't have any experience with making instruments...but logic
tells me that, rather than using exchangable necks & the like to
play different tunings there is a more obvious solution (regardless
of what type/thickness/strength of strings are available to you):

Make each fret adjustable, and (for live performances for
musicians seeking multiple tunings) make a programmable fret-shifter
that is told each fret position (and locks its sliders on to it) and
then moves it to the desired positions. This way changing scales
will be as simple as clicking a "from" preset button and "to" preset
button.

Another issue I see that could make micro music a LOT easier is
the use of a tonally-capable synth. It would use an underlying
consonance algorithm, like Bill's, to judge consonance between all
notes in a chord and move each note in the chord to the nearest note
that would produce the same or less as a 12-tet chord.
And in addition use instruments with timber that match the pre-
existing tunings harmonically (Bill has theory for this and software
for timber-to-harmonic-matching-scales, but I have yet to see
software for scales-to-matching-timber released).
There are such wonderful technologies and theoretic discoveries
available we really have no reason to blame instrument architecture
for barring us from microtonal capabilities.

Why would this be important?

Well, let's face it, much of the public has come up with the
misconception that microtonal music is less consonant than 12 note
equal temperment chromatic (when, especially considering JI, this is
a lie)...and that microtonal music HAS to be harder to listen to in
that sense than 12-tet.

Along with this is the myth that learning the new theories
associated with it would be overkill for trained musicians and
nullify any value of their training (including ear training/"perfect
pitch")...so it becomes an unnecessary ego issue.

Such software would eliminate to consonance/pop-markettability
issues...and, when this happens, software synth and guitar
manufacturers will be encouraged to go microtonal for
profitability. This could be an only mildly long-term end to
our "emerging (music) technology" problem, and it sure beats doing
the Beethoven thing and having people figure out you were right long
after you died. :-P

-Michael

🔗Cody Hallenbeck <codyhallenbeck@...>

🔗misterbobro <misterbobro@...>

Hmmm... I think the vast majority of the people in the world for
almost the entire history of the world would probably qualify
as "much of the public", and we the public have demonstrated a very
big and open ear. So no worries there (unless the New World Order,
and it's auto-tuned MTV soundtrack, really is the end of all days).

Having made and fretted instruments, and programmed synths to no
end, to reply to your post (which is very keen and cuts to main
issues of instruments)-

Indian instruments have frets set in wax, Eurasian (and old
European) instruments have frets which are just strings tied around
the fingerboard so you can move them, and of course there are
countless fretless instruments. Variable intonation on string
instruments is thousands of years old (at least).

Check out the microtonal guitar links here and you'll see the real
problem. Pratically speaking, movable parallel frets are not
problem. But parallel (straight) frets require parallel intervals.
Notice the mini-frets and wavy frets on the guitars built for
various tunings...

Let's say you have just two strings on an instrument. One is tuned
to 1/1, the other to 4/3. E and A like on your normal Spanish-tuned
electric guitar. You can put your frets anywhere you'd like, or even
move them around on tracks with a micro electric motor and a
computer, and things will be fine on one condition: your tuning is
constructed on tetrachords. This means, in this example, that F is
the same distance from E as Bb is from A, F# is the same distance
from E as B natural is from A, etc.

In other words, the tuning repeats itself at the fourth, If it
doesn't, you'd have to make the next string an octave higher, E and
e, for example. Then you could have all kinds of funky intervals
within each octave, and they'd be in tune with themselves (an octave
higher) on the next string. Unfortunately, the size of human hands
and limits of materials gets in the way of this scheme, you could
have two or three strings and be limited almost entirely to melodic
playing, forget chords.

(I'm using the fourth, 4/3, as the example because of popularity of
Spanish tuned guitars, but this all applies to the fifth, 3/2, if
the tritone is the same distance from the fourth as the minor second
is from the tonic, for example.)

For thousands of years countless tunings all over the world have
repeated themselves at the fourth or fifth. Conjunct and disjunct
tetrachords. It makes sense to the ear, and it makes sense when you
make stringed instruments.

Equal temperaments get around this problem very neatly- they repeat
themselves at any damn point. Straight parallel frets no problem,
tune your strings how you'd like.

But a six-string guitar playing music in many keys, and not equal-
tempered... every fret on every string would have to be seperate!
There are luthiers that do this by the way. But to vary and automate
this on the fly would be insanely complex.

72 to 140-odd motor/gear systems in your guitar neck?

There's only one way to true Just Intonation in many keys with one
stringed instrument: fretless.

As far as synths, tuning algorithms are already happening. But the
question is, tune to what? The root of each chord? That's a specific
style, a kind of far descendant of parallel organum.

In my opinion, the best approach is not to worry about "universal"
solutions, but to work on finding practical solutions to your own
music making challenges. "Universal" gave us 12-tET and McDonald's.

-Cameron Bobro

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "djtrancendance"
<djtrancendance@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have any experience with making instruments...but logic
> tells me that, rather than using exchangable necks & the like to
> play different tunings there is a more obvious solution
(regardless
> of what type/thickness/strength of strings are available to you):
>
> Make each fret adjustable, and (for live performances for
> musicians seeking multiple tunings) make a programmable fret-
shifter
> that is told each fret position (and locks its sliders on to it)
and
> then moves it to the desired positions. This way changing scales
> will be as simple as clicking a "from" preset button and "to"
preset
> button.
>
>
> Another issue I see that could make micro music a LOT easier is
> the use of a tonally-capable synth. It would use an underlying
> consonance algorithm, like Bill's, to judge consonance between all
> notes in a chord and move each note in the chord to the nearest
note
> that would produce the same or less as a 12-tet chord.
> And in addition use instruments with timber that match the pre-
> existing tunings harmonically (Bill has theory for this and
software
> for timber-to-harmonic-matching-scales, but I have yet to see
> software for scales-to-matching-timber released).
> There are such wonderful technologies and theoretic discoveries
> available we really have no reason to blame instrument
architecture
> for barring us from microtonal capabilities.
>
>
> Why would this be important?
>
> Well, let's face it, much of the public has come up with the
> misconception that microtonal music is less consonant than 12 note
> equal temperment chromatic (when, especially considering JI, this
is
> a lie)...and that microtonal music HAS to be harder to listen to
in
> that sense than 12-tet.
>
> Along with this is the myth that learning the new theories
> associated with it would be overkill for trained musicians and
> nullify any value of their training (including ear
training/"perfect
> pitch")...so it becomes an unnecessary ego issue.
>
> Such software would eliminate to consonance/pop-markettability
> issues...and, when this happens, software synth and guitar
> manufacturers will be encouraged to go microtonal for
> profitability. This could be an only mildly long-term end to
> our "emerging (music) technology" problem, and it sure beats doing
> the Beethoven thing and having people figure out you were right
long
> after you died. :-P
>
> -Michael
>

🔗Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@...>

Hmm...you've got a very strong point there it likely is less expensive to have/build individual guitars and/or necks in many cases. Although if you have/need a very high-quality neck it may be different. So who makes the alternate auto-tuning bridge for 12-EDO?

Also, between JI and ET I agree there isn't a huge difference in error (for most intervals, it really doesn't matter) although some notes, like thirds, do stand out a bit to my ear at least. My point, though, was to say microtonal doesn't mean less consonant, and the most obvious example seemed to be giving a microtonal scale that was actually more consonant, even if by very little.
In my mind the great thing in microtonallity is the gain in harmonic expression and hardcore enthusiasts, like you said, will easily give up consonance to get those extra degrees of expression...and indeed FM7, Absynth (indeed, lots of NI brand synths)...can manage that far.

I guess my fear is that microtonal is in danger of becoming a self-indulgent art in many places where it really shouldn't have to be. And that while the tonal expression is a major plus, dissonance often rides that out in people's minds...and why not have the best of both worlds and more musicians interested in microtonality to spur inspiration from?
.
I've broadcasted microtonal music as a guest performer on KPFT in Texas several times but the avant-garde show they had to go bust do to lack of popularity...not that I don't love composing like this anyhow (or that I don't think more accomplished micro-tonal musicians could do better), but that I wish more of a voice was given to alternative-tuned music.

Also, there are so many amazingly innovative musicians, particularly in jazz and electronica (esp. with respect to sound engineering and harmonic structure) already hooked on stretching tonality (BT, Leo Kottke, Joe Pass, Way Out West...just to name a very few). And, frankly, it would be a thrill to hear their take on microtonality, not to mention less compulsive ones.

The electronic moving frets idea is cool, but would probably be pretty hard
to implement. Mass production guitars aren't that expensive anyways, it'd
probably be less effort to just get more guitars built, unless you played in
a whole lot of tunings. Then again, they do make an automatically tuning
bridge for alternatate 12EDO tunings, but I have the feeling that moving
frets individually is a harder task.

The adaptive synth idea is cool, and pretty practical. I think this might
have already been done, even. Even then, personally, the primary attraction
to alternate tunings for me and a lot of others isn't necessary improved
consonance, but improved harmonic vocabulary, which this wouldn't really
help with. Actually, now that I think of it, I know at the very least
Native Instruments Absynth can do just this out of the box.

I'm not really sure how important pop marketability is to microtonality.
Certainly, I'd like to see more rock/pop type type music explictly utilize
different tunings, but any performer who cares enough to do so is going to
be willing to put a little extra work into it. Also, for the majority of
rock/pop, the tuning error of 12EDO doesn't usually jump out at me as being
that big a deal. Maybe I'm just tone deaf :).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.

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🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@...>

First and foremost, I didn't know about the ethnic fretted instruments, and
you're right about the limitation to melodic playing on a straight fretboard and I didn't even think of the issue of ET vs. non-ET and multi-fret tuning complexities in instrument design (and appearently, the incredible expense of tuning auto-tuning them)...you sure know this field.

Just out of the blue: I'm guessing smaller frets (to make human hands take up more space) wouldn't help for the chord playing issue either (or perhaps even for an expert instrument architect like yourself the precision needed is too ridiculous)?

When I said "auto-tune" though, I meant on/through synthesizers and not on sets of harmonics/overtones (which is what I'm guessing you assumed).
In my idea each individual harmonic/overtone of each note, not each note itself (believe me, I probably think Britney Spears' and countless other artists' auto-tuning vocals/guitars, where the whole set of harmonics for a note is tuned, are as cheezy and lifeless as you do...and, for the record, I don't buy major label 98% of the time

:-) ).

Anyhow, about the specifics of me "dissonance regulating synthesizer" idea (which I realize might exist, I just haven't found it yet), the harmonics would be tuned so the average frequency/magnitude combination would be around roughly the same area as all the harmonic overtones of all the notes of the original chord, but with each overtone nudged up/down a bit. This would be done to make the sum of their dissonances not too far over that of a jazz chord, for example. So the increase in tonal expression should be mostly maintained...the software could even have an adjustable factor for how much dissonance it would allow and thus how much shifting it would do to acheive harmony.

And if you can think of a way to design a string or fret (or fretless?) neck that can be twisted in such a way to shape the overtones of each note so a musician can do that shaping at his/her own discretion...wow.

I also agree with you that fretless seems to be the obvious way to go to acheive microtonallity...the problem in my mind is the coordination involved to play something like that with, say, Harry Partch's 43-note scale. Whoever does that must have one hell of an ear.

I'm very interested in the microtonal fretted ethnic instruments you mention though. What are they called? I'm going to have to educate myself on these...

-Michael

A
misterbobro <misterbobro@...> wrote:
Hmmm... I think the vast majority of the people in the world for
almost the entire history of the world would probably qualify
as "much of the public", and we the public have demonstrated a very
big and open ear. So no worries there (unless the New World Order,
and it's auto-tuned MTV soundtrack, really is the end of all days).

Having made and fretted instruments, and programmed synths to no
end, to reply to your post (which is very keen and cuts to main
issues of instruments)-

Equal temperaments get around this problem very neatly- they repeat
themselves at any damn point. Straight parallel frets no problem,
tune your strings how you'd like.

72 to 140-odd motor/gear systems in your guitar neck?

There's only one way to true Just Intonation in many keys with one
stringed instrument: fretless.

As far as synths, tuning algorithms are already happening. But the
question is, tune to what? The root of each chord? That's a specific
style, a kind of far descendant of parallel organum.

-Cameron Bobro

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

one very big difference between JI and ET is that JI will tend to have more unequal sized intervals so you actually get more possible variety depending where you start.
most tuning we collect in the wild so to speak tend to be unequal in preference.

Also while errors are unavoidable, why start off with an error and add error to that?

one cannot be concern with how big an audience is.
we are not whores who let our johns determine what we do.
( unless we happened to be inclined that way )

i find that people react to good music more than set genre or statistically predictable models.
who would have ever expected the popularity of say the Bulgarians womens choir, happening 10 years after their first release.

each to do what sounds best. but one should keep in mind that the so called avante garde, or experimental etc has as many people compromising what they do to fit in with this stuff too.

i don't care if microtonality is considered self indulgent. the same can be said about absolutely every form of music and art that has ever been done.
except under the social realist in Russia, the Chinese children's paintings that all do the same, or any or all fascist states. especially Plato's.

If one cannot be who you are in art, what is the point. and then where can you, only in private

Music is like food in the fridge.
what is just about to rot is what we eat before it goes bad.
what is popular is often the very thing that will be the least useful for people the soonest
Michael Sheiman wrote:
> Hmm...you've got a very strong point there it likely is less expensive to have/build individual guitars and/or necks in many cases. Although if you have/need a very high-quality neck it may be different. So who makes the alternate auto-tuning bridge for 12-EDO?
> > Also, between JI and ET I agree there isn't a huge difference in error (for most intervals, it really doesn't matter) although some notes, like thirds, do stand out a bit to my ear at least. My point, though, was to say microtonal doesn't mean less consonant, and the most obvious example seemed to be giving a microtonal scale that was actually more consonant, even if by very little.
> In my mind the great thing in microtonallity is the gain in harmonic expression and hardcore enthusiasts, like you said, will easily give up consonance to get those extra degrees of expression...and indeed FM7, Absynth (indeed, lots of NI brand synths)...can manage that far. > > I guess my fear is that microtonal is in danger of becoming a self-indulgent art in many places where it really shouldn't have to be. And that while the tonal expression is a major plus, dissonance often rides that out in people's minds...and why not have the best of both worlds and more musicians interested in microtonality to spur inspiration from? > . > I've broadcasted microtonal music as a guest performer on KPFT in Texas several times but the avant-garde show they had to go bust do to lack of popularity...not that I don't love composing like this anyhow (or that I don't think more accomplished micro-tonal musicians could do better), but that I wish more of a voice was given to alternative-tuned music.
> > Also, there are so many amazingly innovative musicians, particularly in jazz and electronica (esp. with respect to sound engineering and harmonic structure) already hooked on stretching tonality (BT, Leo Kottke, Joe Pass, Way Out West...just to name a very few). And, frankly, it would be a thrill to hear their take on microtonality, not to mention less compulsive ones.
>
>
> The electronic moving frets idea is cool, but would probably be pretty hard
> to implement. Mass production guitars aren't that expensive anyways, it'd
> probably be less effort to just get more guitars built, unless you played in
> a whole lot of tunings. Then again, they do make an automatically tuning
> bridge for alternatate 12EDO tunings, but I have the feeling that moving
> frets individually is a harder task.
>
> The adaptive synth idea is cool, and pretty practical. I think this might
> have already been done, even. Even then, personally, the primary attraction
> to alternate tunings for me and a lot of others isn't necessary improved
> consonance, but improved harmonic vocabulary, which this wouldn't really
> help with. Actually, now that I think of it, I know at the very least
> Native Instruments Absynth can do just this out of the box.
>
> I'm not really sure how important pop marketability is to microtonality.
> Certainly, I'd like to see more rock/pop type type music explictly utilize
> different tunings, but any performer who cares enough to do so is going to
> be willing to put a little extra work into it. Also, for the majority of
> rock/pop, the tuning error of 12EDO doesn't usually jump out at me as being
> that big a deal. Maybe I'm just tone deaf :).
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> >
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Some ideas for microtonal guitars & software

🔗djtrancendance <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Cody Hallenbeck <codyhallenbeck@...>

🔗misterbobro <misterbobro@...>

🔗Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Michael Sheiman <djtrancendance@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

🔗yahya_melb <yahya@...>