Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Re: [MMM] Other "Chords of Nature"

Jacky!
I think that there is more in common here than might be apparent. In
both the cases of the harmonic series and tuning by timbre you have the same
principle of "coincidence" of partials are equal to consonance. In other
words, acoustical relations hold the show. Now it is hard to tell which came
first the chicken or the egg. The timbre or the scale, but as far as
instruments made around the world, there is an overwhelming preference for
instruments with strong fundamentals. In those places where you have
instruments without strong fundamentals, the music develops in other
directions than pitch altogether, such as with gongs and especially drums.
Here pitch might be more correctly thought of as range in order to
differentiate one "voice" from another.
Sethares works opens up some interesting Questions. For instance why do
so many different timbres work in 12 ET and not in other timbres. Or are we
not used to the different relationships they have in other tunings. Also
there are cases such as Gagaku where you have parallel tunings that work
side by side. Pythagorean plucked strings with Subharmonic flutes and such.
The method of using a combined timbre to create a scale makes quite good
sense. I personally have been interested in what simultaneous scales can be
used to sound the same as if they are the same scale. The observation that
the same timbre does not work throughout a large range seems to be the true
with acoustic instruments, outside of maybe strings. Most instrumental
designs have been explored in all the different sizes and yet we don't find
soprano Bassoons or bass oboes

jacky_ligon wrote:

> One thing I regrettable failed to mention to Brain, and may be
> considered the highest order of blasphemy to many, is that even
> though rational intonation represents one of the most important
> facets of my musical work, I do not buy into any ideas about the
> supremacy of the harmonic series as any single "archetype of
> consonance".

>
>
> Perception of consonance in tuning is totally tied to timbre, and
> what one will find is that there are many "chords of nature" -
> infinities of "series" which are musically useful and beautiful to
> the ear, and what is an appropriate tuning for a harmonic series
> timbre, may not always be what is needed for inharmonic ones.
> Especially in the case of tuned idiophones.
>
> My Brother Kraig Grady has pointed out that on his wonderful sounding
> mallet instruments (which have inharmonic attack transients, but pure
> tone fundamentals), he tunes by the fundamentals of the resonators,
> and hearing his work shows me this is what works for this particular
> timbre set, but what is true there, may not always be the only
> possibility for electronically generated timbres, and or many
> inharmonic acoustic timbres (even though one can tune to the
> perceived fundamentals as an option and completely ignore prominent
> partials).
>
> It is my feeling that looking at the harmonic series as the "only
> solution" is a culturally conditioned thing, and where one may come
> from a culture where music is dominated by the inharmonic series, or
> where one may have followed a personal path which uses inharmonic
> timbres in their microtonal work, a completely different reality may
> exist.
>
> I should mention that I see them all as valid - equally valid - in
> music and scale design. It is an effort to balance the musical scales
> based on what my *ear* tells me, because in the end, hearing this in
> music is what I think we are trying to work toward, and hearing it in
> complex interaction in a musical setting is the final *proof* of if
> you got it right.
>
> Many times the large body of contemporary tuning theory will give -
> what I see - as undue "weight" to the supremacy of the harmonic
> series, because in the West, harmonic series timbres may generally
> dominate in the musical textures. This does have value to musical
> situations which match this choice of timbres, yet other realties may
> exist where cultural or personal conditioning (not to mention
> aesthetic choice) favors the inharmonic series timbres.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Jacky Ligon
>
> "Timbre Rules" - Frank Zappa
>
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> In those places where you have
> instruments without strong fundamentals, the music develops in other
> directions than pitch altogether, such as with gongs and especially
drums.
> Here pitch might be more correctly thought of as range in order to
> differentiate one "voice" from another.

Very good point Kraig.

> Sethares works opens up some interesting Questions. For
instance why do
> so many different timbres work in 12 ET and not in other timbres.

Not in other tunings?

> Most instrumental
> designs have been explored in all the different sizes and yet we
don't find
> soprano Bassoons or bass oboes

Pardon my ignorance, but aren't bassoons and oboes members of the
same family, just as the strings you mentioned form a family?

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗paulerlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@y..., "jacky_ligon" <jacky_ligon@y...> wrote:

> Agreed - but in the case of gongs, there may be a *perceived*
> fundamental which is other than the lowest partial, for myriad
> reasons.

Yes -- and simple ratios would be one very nice way of relating the
_perceived_ fundamentals in a tuning system.
>
> This is part of my "Big Mystery Question". Why does it still sound
> beautiful even though the partials and tuning might not well allign
> as in Gamelan?

My answer -- when the partials aren't very harmonic, the root-finder
in the brain has a much less sure sense of the pitch it is perceiving.
Therefore, (per harmonic entropy) the range of influence of the
simple ratios is extended, and larger "mistunings" allowed.

12-tET with harmonic timbres, though misaligned, is considered very
beautiful by many, and does get across the idea of the 5-limit
consonant ratios. Similarly, I could see Pelog as taking advantage of
the increased "malleability" of the consonances when inharmonic
overtone structures are in play. For example, on tuning-math we found
that, just as eliminating the usual syntonic comma, (4 -1), leads
uniquely to the familiar meantone temperament, elimiating the major
limma, (3 1), leads uniquely to a Pelog tuning, approximately in a
stretched 23-tET.

🔗David Beardsley <db@...>

And I'm not even familar with his work,
although I'd like to read some of his work.

Kraig! JC & I will be at G&L booth @ 2002 NAMM. See you then!

----- Original Message -----
From: Kraig Grady

I knew philip k. dick was alive and listening in!

> OH YEAH? THEN EXPLAIN THE SOPRANINO CONTRABASS
> MANDOLIN OR THE BASS PICCOLO GUITAR OR THE ALTO SOPRANO UKE???
>
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

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