Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Sub arbore (mp3, pdf) and Jacob's 17-TPP

Hello, everyone, and it's my pleasure to post a piece which I'm also
provisionally submitting to Jacob Barton's 17-Tone Piano Project:

<http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/SubArbore.mp3>
<http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/SubArbore.pdf>

Of course, any comments or questions are warmly welcomed.

This three-voice piece uses a close approximation of Zalzal's famous
scale as described by al-Farabi. Zalzal, a musician playing the oud
(of which one variation is the European lute) in 8th-century Baghdad,
is credited with introducing a neutral third fret or _wusta_, a note
for which al-Farabi gives a ratio of 27/22, and for which other
theorists suggest other shades of intonation. In al-Farabi's version,
the just ratios are:

1/1 9/8 27/22 4/3 3/2 18/11 16/9 2/1
0 204 355 498 702 853 996 1200

In a 17-tone version, which might be realized in an equal temperament
(as in the Seventeen-Tone Piano Project) or an unequal temperament
(for example, George Secor's 17-tone well-temperament or 17-WT), the
basic pattern and spelling is like this using my Sagittal notation for
the score, or alternatively conventional sharps and flats:

G A B\|/ C D E\|/ F G
G A A# C D D# F G
0 3 5 7 10 12 14 17
3 2 2 3 2 2 3
|--------------|--------------|
Rast Rast

Zalzal's scale as realized in a 17-note thirdtone tuning consists of
two conjunct tetrachords of the Rast variety (3-2-2, tone plus two
neutral seconds) plus an upper tone to complete the octave. Since the
only 17-EDO accidentals are D# and A#, the piece could be played on a
single piano tuned in 17-EDO with seven naturals plus five sharps.

The "provisional" nature of the submission is mainly because I'm not
sure how apt this piece is for piano, or how best to score it for that
instrument. In some sections actually having one hand on each of the
two 12-note keyboards might be a possible strategy for handling
unisons or crossing voices, since both keyboards support the seven
naturals. For the conclusion (measures 23-31), for example, one could
play the two lower voices on the piano with five flats (actually using
only naturals on this keyboard), and the highest voice on the piano
with sharps to obtain D# (E\|/) and A# (B\|/).

In the mp3 version, the tuning is unequal:

G A B\|/ C D E\|/ F G
0 208 358 496 704 854 992 1200

My warmest thanks to Jacob for the Seventeen-Tone Piano Project, and
also to Shaahin and Yahya for their encouragement in using the scales
of the Maqam and Dastgah systems for polyphony.

Peace and love,

Margo

🔗c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>

🔗Mohajeri Shahin <shahinm@...>

Dear margo

Bravo!!

I think that you , in one of your past lives , were living in middle east.

Can you tell me your sense when palying with intervals out of region of diatonic and chromatic music.

Shaahin Mohaajeri

Tombak Player & Researcher , Microtonal Composer

My web site , click picture : <http://240edo.tripod.com/index.html>

My tombak musics in Rhythmweb: www.rhythmweb.com/gdg <http://www.rhythmweb.com/gdg>

My articles in Harmonytalk:

- www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html <http://www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html>

- www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html <http://www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html>

My article in DrumDojo:

www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm <http://www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm>

My musics in Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :

- A composition based on a folk melody of Shiraz region, in shur-dastgah by Mohajeri Shahin <http://www.xenharmony.org/mp3/shaahin/shur.mp3>

- An experiment in Iranian homayun and chahargah modes by Mohajeri Shahin <http://www.xenharmony.org/mp3/shaahin/homayun.mp3>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗yahya_melb <yahya@...>

Hi all,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Margo Schulter wrote:
>
> Hello, everyone, and it's my pleasure to post a piece which I'm
also provisionally submitting to Jacob Barton's 17-Tone Piano
Project:
>
> <http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/SubArbore.mp3>
> <http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/SubArbore.pdf>
>
> Of course, any comments or questions are warmly welcomed.
>
> This three-voice piece uses a close approximation of Zalzal's
famous scale as described by al-Farabi. Zalzal, a musician playing
the oud (of which one variation is the European lute) in 8th-century
Baghdad, is credited with introducing a neutral third fret or
_wusta_, a note for which al-Farabi gives a ratio of 27/22, and for
which other theorists suggest other shades of intonation. In al-
Farabi's version, the just ratios are:
>
> 1/1 9/8 27/22 4/3 3/2 18/11 16/9 2/1
> 0 204 355 498 702 853 996 1200
>
> In a 17-tone version, which might be realized in an equal
temperament (as in the Seventeen-Tone Piano Project) or an unequal
temperament (for example, George Secor's 17-tone well-temperament or
17-WT), the basic pattern and spelling is like this using my
Sagittal notation for the score, or alternatively conventional
sharps and flats:
>
> G A B\|/ C D E\|/ F G
> G A A# C D D# F G
> 0 3 5 7 10 12 14 17
> 3 2 2 3 2 2 3
> |--------------|--------------|
> Rast Rast
>
> Zalzal's scale as realized in a 17-note thirdtone tuning consists
of two conjunct tetrachords of the Rast variety (3-2-2, tone plus
two neutral seconds) plus an upper tone to complete the octave.
Since the only 17-EDO accidentals are D# and A#, the piece could be
played on a single piano tuned in 17-EDO with seven naturals plus
five sharps.
>
> The "provisional" nature of the submission is mainly because I'm
not sure how apt this piece is for piano, or how best to score it
for that instrument. In some sections actually having one hand on
each of the two 12-note keyboards might be a possible strategy for
handling unisons or crossing voices, since both keyboards support
the seven naturals. For the conclusion (measures 23-31), for
example, one could play the two lower voices on the piano with five
flats (actually using only naturals on this keyboard), and the
highest voice on the piano with sharps to obtain D# (E\|/) and A#
(B\|/).
>
> In the mp3 version, the tuning is unequal:
>
> G A B\|/ C D E\|/ F G
> 0 208 358 496 704 854 992 1200
>
> My warmest thanks to Jacob for the Seventeen-Tone Piano Project,
and also to Shaahin and Yahya for their encouragement in using the
scales of the Maqam and Dastgah systems for polyphony.
______________________________________________________________

Thank you, Margo.

There are undoubtedly some lovely sounds and piquant progressions in
this piece. It's taking me quite some effort to get a feel for how
intervals I can read in the score will actually sound in practice; I
couldn't help wondering, for example, what would happen if the
middle part was one scale degree lower throughout measures 14 to 18
inclusive? I'm sure it would radically alter the progressions you
have there; my point is not to suggest changing your piece, but to
note just how hard it is (for me at least) to "read" the music. I
may make the experiment of tuning up and playing your piece, with
variations, just for the learning experience! Thanks for the
opportunity to play with this scale in a polyphonic way.

Regards,
Yahya

🔗Margo Schulter <mschulter@...>

> Posted by: "Mohajeri Shahin" shahinm@... acousticsoftombak

> Can you tell me your sense when playing with intervals out of
> region of diatonic and chromatic music.

Dear Shaahin,

Thank you for your encouragement, I would briefly answer your
question by saying that it is wonderful to experience these
intervals and the richer range of modes they make possible.

In a typical historical European style, only two basic types of
steps are used to make up the different modes: whole tones and
semitones. In a Near Eastern style, we have available various
shades and colors of neutral intervals also -- a much richer and
more subtle spectrum!

This is maybe most simply apparent in a style of improvisation
with a single melody, possibly accompanied by a drone: the
neutral steps have their own character, and one which, as the
performer and scholar Ali Jihad Racy has written, can communicate
"ecstasy."

In composed polyphony, I find sometimes that I have a tendency to
hear certain progressions in three or four voices as "somewhat
like" a familiar European progression -- although also different.
Thus I might say, "This sounds a bit like the lower voice is
descending by a tone and the upper voices rising by semitones"
when in fact all three voices are moving by neutral seconds. I
have a tendency with this kind of polyphony to want to hear a
familiar pattern -- and yet relish the different musical color
which tells me that this is a different world of sonority.

Between improvisation mostly focused on a single melody and
written polyphony taking a European form as a starting point,
there is the possibility of a polyphonic _taqsim_ or dastgah
style of improvisation. Can one freely and fluidly improvise two
or more melodies at once, letting the traditional patterns of
_sayr_ or _gusheh_ influence the musical process as much as the
vertical relationships between the voices? That is the creative
question.

A vital point which you are demonstrating in your music is that
polyphony does not require compromising the intonational variety
of the different maqamat or dastgah-ha. However, that variety
might lead polyphony in new directions which we must seek out.

By the way, may I warmly thank George Secor, who pointed me in
the direction of Zalzal's scale and explored with me from his
perspective some of the things I have described about
progressions for three and four voices in Middle Eastern
tunings.

Peace and love, with many thanks,

Margo

🔗Margo Schulter <mschulter@...>

> Posted by: "Carl Lumma" ekin@... clumma

> It's amazing how medieval this sounds (and I mean that in the best
> possible way!). The intonation here goes a bit further than I can
> say I've ever heard in an early music performance, but it still
> functions in the same space. It's just lovely to hear. I'm sure
> Ozan Yarman would appreciate the polyphonic use of this scale, also
> (I think he may only be on the tuning list -- have you considered
> cross-posting?).

Dear Carl,

Thank you for nicely capturing about as well as it can be done in
words my intentions for this piece in terms of something that
"functions in the same space" as 13th-century European polyphony, and
yet has a certain Middle Eastern quality also.

In response to your suggestion about Ozan Yarman, I've sent him an
e-mail forwarding my original post; but this isn't to rule out my
posting to the tuning list also.

Since we're discussing this, please let me give me permission for
anyone active on the tuning list or other tuning-related groups to
forward my posts here to those groups whenever they seem topical and
helpful for a given forum.

By the way, speaking of the 17-TPP, people might want to take a look
at Ozan's Web site:

<http://www.ozanyarman.com/>

which has what looks like a comprehensive setting of drawings for some
kind of 17-tone piano, one keyboard with flats and the other with
sharps (I regret my ignorance of Turkish, but the musical symbols and
numbers may give a general idea). I'm not sure if this is an equal or
unequal 17-note temperament -- how about George Secor's 17-tone
well-temperament, for example?

In peace and love,

Margo

🔗Margo Schulter <mschulter@...>

> Posted by: "yahya_melb" yahya@... yahya_melb

> There are undoubtedly some lovely sounds and piquant progressions in
> this piece. It's taking me quite some effort to get a feel for how
> intervals I can read in the score will actually sound in practice; I
> couldn't help wondering, for example, what would happen if the
> middle part was one scale degree lower throughout measures 14 to 18
> inclusive? I'm sure it would radically alter the progressions you
> have there; my point is not to suggest changing your piece, but to
> note just how hard it is (for me at least) to "read" the music.

Dear Yahya,

Thank you for sharing both your effort to understand the score of this
piece and some of the difficulties you are meeting. May I add that for
a composer, this kind of dialogue with another interested musician can
be a special learning experience.

Reading your remarks, I found myself asking to what degree the
difficulties might involve the notation, the tuning system, or the
musical language. Why don't I try to explain what I see happening in
the portion of the piece you have mentioned, measures 14-18, and seek
your feedback as to whether this helps? I'd stress for you and others
that while I try to give ASCII music notation below, the PDF file to
which I give a link below is better and may avoid some problems with
HTML formatting or proportional fonts (nonproportional is recommended).

Please let me include links to the mp3 file and PDF score which might
help in following my discussion of measures 14-18 (about 0:23-0:30 in
the mp3 file):

<http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/SubArbore.mp3>
<http://www.bestII.com/~mschulter/SubArbore.pdf>

Here I'll use an ASCII version of the Sagittal notation, with \|/
showing a note lowered by about a quarter to a third of a tone. This
sign is equivalent to the Arabic half-flat or the Persian koron (p).
The meter is 6/4. I'll follow MIDI conventions, with C5 as middle C;
and use an "r" to show a rest. Again, I'd recommend the PDF as best!

14 15 16 17 18
1 2 3 4 5 6 | 1 2 3 4 5 6 | 1 2 3 4 5 6 | 1 2 3 4 5 6 | 1...
E\|/6 r E\|/6 D6 D6 C6 D6 E\|/6 F6
B\|/5 r B\|/5 B\|/5 C6 C6 B\|/5 C6
E\|/5 r E\|/5 E\|/5 F5 G5 F5

At measure 14, a phrase concludes with an ideally rich and complete
stable harmony in this style: a sonority with a fifth and octave above
the lowest voice, and a fourth between the upper voices. In a JI
version of the Zalzal tuning, this would be a pure 2:3:4. In either
the unequal temperament of this mp3 or 17-EDO, the fifth is slightly
wide and the fourth likewise narrow. Either this complete three-voice
consonance, or the simple interval of the fifth, serves as a
satisfying point of repose and contrasts with more active intervals.

At measure 15, such a contrast occurs when the highest voice descends
by a neutral second of E\|/6-D6, producing a sonority of E\|/5-B\|/5-D6
with a fifth and neutral seventh above the lowest part and an upper
neutral third, in the mp3 around 0-704-1050 cents and very close to
the JI ratios of 6:9:11. This sonority, somewhat tense and yet having
a degree of concord, is repeated at the start of measure 16 and then
resolves to the stable fifth F5-C6, with the outer neutral seventh
contracting to a fifth and the upper neutral third to a unison.

At the opening of measure 17, we move to a mildly unstable sonority,
G5-C6-D6, with a fourth and a fifth above the lowest voice and a major
second between the upper voices, close to the just 6:8:9 which would
obtain in the original Zalzal/al-Farabi JI tuning. This sonority has a
pleasing quality rather like that of a fifth-octave consonance or
simple fifth, but with the relatively tense major second adding an
active and unstable quality. Here, in a typical cadential figure, this
element of motion or activity leads to another unstable sonority: the
upper voices expand from a major second to a fourth, forming a
sonority of G5-B\|/5-E\|/6 with neutral third and sixth above the
lowest voice, here about 0-358-854 cents.

The passage concludes at measure 18 as the neutral third expands to a
fifth and the neutral sixth to an octave, arriving at F5-C6-F6, a
full and stable concord.

Also, it might not hurt to point out that while the characteristic
progressions in this portion of the composition often alternate stable
and unstable sonorities, the cadences are to stable sonorities built
on steps other than the final or concluding note, G. Here is the scale
in rounded cents in Sagittal, Persian, and 17-EDO notations (with
rounded 17-EDO cents at the bottom):

Sagittal: G A B\|/ C D E\|/ F G
Persian: G A Bp C D Ep F G
mp3 cents: 0 208 358 496 704 854 992 1200
----------------------------------------------------------------
17-EDO G A A# C D D# F G
cents: 0 212 353 494 706 847 988 1200

> I may make the experiment of tuning up and playing your piece, with
> variations, just for the learning experience! Thanks for the
> opportunity to play with this scale in a polyphonic way.

May I recommend this, and also regret that I can't simply join with
you at a keyboard or some other instrument, more direct and
communicative than writing. Of course, I'd be glad to help with any
unresolved or new difficulties, or explore the question of what would
happen if the middle voice were shifted by a scale step at measures
14-18 (a good exercise for understanding the tuning system and style).

In peace and love,

Margo

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>> It's amazing how medieval this sounds (and I mean that in the best
>> possible way!). The intonation here goes a bit further than I can
>> say I've ever heard in an early music performance, but it still
>> functions in the same space. It's just lovely to hear. I'm sure
>> Ozan Yarman would appreciate the polyphonic use of this scale, also
>> (I think he may only be on the tuning list -- have you considered
>> cross-posting?).
>
>Dear Carl,
>
>Thank you for nicely capturing about as well as it can be done in
>words my intentions for this piece in terms of something that
>"functions in the same space" as 13th-century European polyphony, and
>yet has a certain Middle Eastern quality also.
>
>In response to your suggestion about Ozan Yarman, I've sent him an
>e-mail forwarding my original post; but this isn't to rule out my
>posting to the tuning list also.
>
>Since we're discussing this, please let me give me permission for
>anyone active on the tuning list or other tuning-related groups to
>forward my posts here to those groups whenever they seem topical and
>helpful for a given forum.
>
>By the way, speaking of the 17-TPP, people might want to take a look
>at Ozan's Web site:
>
> <http://www.ozanyarman.com/>
>
>which has what looks like a comprehensive setting of drawings for some
>kind of 17-tone piano, one keyboard with flats and the other with
>sharps (I regret my ignorance of Turkish, but the musical symbols and
>numbers may give a general idea).

Which paper is that? I just looked over the site and saw something
on the his instantly-retunable piano project (which I hadn't seen
so much detail of before, so that was good).

-Carl