Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic online interview with yours truly

I've just started using Scala (many thanks to Carl Lumma) , am somewhat new to music theory. Recently I wanted to construct a 60 note pythagorean just temperment
and so used the following commands with the software 'Scala', found at;
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/
The commands I used were;
type "pythag" in the box at the bottom, followed by
the following answers to the prompts:
size= 60
formal octave= [return]
fifth degree= [return]
formal fifth= 3/2
count downwards= [return]
type "show"
This gave me a listing of the ratios (fractions) for the complete musical scale.
HOWEVER,
I'd like to do the same thing for a completely different type of scale, an unsual one;
(what are the commands to use? I looked everywhere in the app but couldn't figure out how to do this)
(Parameters below)
Scale based on;
7 to 4 ratio of the natural seventh harmonic creates a new musical scale, a five tone, pentatonic scale.
Natural five tone octave intervals based on seventh harmonic
fundamental of the 7th is 12 Hertz, 7/4
It has no melodies, rhythms or other forms or order found in other music. It sounds almost completely chaotic, unpredictable
The ratio of these numbers is the division of seven, an interval between the overtones not used in other harmonic structures. 7/7, 7/6, 7/5, 7/4, 7/3, 7/2, 7/1. Out of this structure of fundamental tones, emerges five intervals. By doubling the five-tone scale we attain the oldest existing scale tenfold scale, called the Slendro scale, much older then the Pythagorean sevenfold octave.
The one seventh interval is different from the major second of 1/9 and 1/10. When used, however, this 1/7th interval will divide the octave into five parts.
The basic tone is 12 Hertz the real basic tone the equivalent to C of the seven-tone scale.
The seventh overtone divides the octave into five intervals. As the fifth tone will be the octave, the value of the intervals is:
First root of five,
Second root of five,
Third root of five,
Fourth root of five,
Octave.
==============================
As mentioned, the frequency and harmonics of the natural acoustic seventh are dissonant when compared to virtually all known tuning systems of the world. Although the acoustic seventh is avoided as an unacceptably sour note, the interval is still always present as a natural acoustic phenomenon. The seventh harmonic can be heard as an overtone or undertone in some instruments, particularly those rich in timbre (which means harmonics) such as a violin.
When the acoustic seventh is taken as the basic interval for the creation of a musical scale, new tones and intervals (distances between the notes) result. The 7 to 4 ratio of the natural seventh harmonic creates a new musical scale, a five tone, pentatonic scale.
What unique effective temperament system based on the natural harmonics of the seventh itself would give the best resuts to get a functionaing music scale, NOT based on square root of 2, and what would it look like based on the square root of two?

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Margo Schulter <mschulter@...>

On Fri, 19 Aug 2006 MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Posted by: "dar kone" zarkorgon@... zarkorgon
> Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:09 pm (PDT)

> This gave me a listing of the ratios (fractions) for the complete musical scale.
> HOWEVER,
> I'd like to do the same thing for a completely different type of scale, an unsual one;
> (what are the commands to use? I looked everywhere in the app but couldn't figure out how to do this)
> (Parameters below)
> Scale based on;
> 7 to 4 ratio of the natural seventh harmonic creates a new musical scale, a five tone, pentatonic scale.
> Natural five tone octave intervals based on seventh harmonic

Hello, there, and welcome to MakeMicroMusic.

As to 7:4, I would say that it is a very pleasant and harmonious interval
provided that the stylistic context is right. In conventional 16th-century
European counterpoint, for example, 7:4 tends to present as rather
dissonant, like any minor seventh. However, in a 14th-century or
20th-century style it could be quite suave, and in some current styles it
can even serve as a stable concord.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure just what kind of scale you are striving for,
although one possibility is this just tuning, which in Scala format might
be listed:

7/6
4/3
3/2
7/4
2/1

This just scale has five notes per octave, and in fact is a kind of
slendro pentatonic used by Lou Harrison and others. It could also be
expressed as a ratio 12:14:16:18:21:24.

> The ratio of these numbers is the division of seven, an interval
> between the overtones not used in other harmonic structures. 7/7, 7/6,
> 7/5, 7/4, 7/3, 7/2, 7/1. Out of this structure of fundamental tones,
> emerges five intervals. By doubling the five-tone scale we attain the
> oldest existing scale tenfold scale, called the Slendro scale, much
> older then the Pythagorean sevenfold octave.

Maybe I should explain that a slendro scale generally has five notes per
octave, which are often not too far from an equal fivefold division of the
octave where each step would be 240 cents, but somewhat unequal. Since
each traditional gamelan ensemble has its own unique intonation, we can
only list some typical patterns, included for example in the Scala scale
archive.

> The one seventh interval is different from the major second of 1/9 and
> 1/10. When used, however, this 1/7th interval will divide the octave
> into five parts.

Actually, if I understand this, you are referring to an 8:7 major second,
about 231 cents, a bit smaller than precisely 1/5 octave (240 cents).

You also refer to a tuning using roots of five. This description sounds
like 5-tone equal temperament or 5-tET, which you could generate in Scala
simply by typing, at least in the version I use,

equaltemp 5

The steps would be

240.000
480.000
720.000
960.000
1200.000

> As mentioned, the frequency and harmonics of the natural acoustic
> seventh are dissonant when compared to virtually all known tuning
> systems of the world. Although the acoustic seventh is avoided as an
> unacceptably sour note, the interval is still always present as a
> natural acoustic phenomenon. The seventh harmonic can be heard as an
> overtone or undertone in some instruments, particularly those rich in
> timbre (which means harmonics) such as a violin.

Actually, I would say that 7:4 is quite smooth and concordant, and that
this interval or close approximations can occur in various world musics.
However, it has not been much used in historical European keyboard
temperaments -- although it does occur in meantone tunings.

> When the acoustic seventh is taken as the basic interval for the
> creation of a musical scale, new tones and intervals (distances between
> the notes) result. The 7 to 4 ratio of the natural seventh harmonic
> creates a new musical scale, a five tone, pentatonic scale.

> What unique effective temperament system based on the natural
> harmonics of the seventh itself would give the best resuts to get a
> functionaing music scale, NOT based on square root of 2, and what would
> it look like based on the square root of two?

On this point I'm a bit confused, because I'm not sure how the square root
of two (which could define a 600-cent or half-octave interval) would come
into this.

However, as I've suggested, the just tuning 7/6 4/3 3/2 7/4 2/1 might meet
some of what you describe, although I would hardly call it "chaotic."

Please forgive me if I'm not following all that you're asking, and please
feel free to ask more.

Peace and love,

Margo Schulter
mschulter@...

🔗harold_fortuin <harold@...>

As to the use of 7:4 in chords in extended standard harmony, I have written several pieces
in 19, 22, and 31-ET that use the ET equivalent interval in a way that contrasts with say
the 9:5 minor 7th quality, including melodic lines moving from 9:5 to 7:4 with supporting
chords - for example,
here's an excerpt from "A Premodern, Romantic Composer":
http://www.geocities.com/harold_fortuin/ExptPremodernRom.mp3

You can find a few other similar excerpts from my music on this page:

http://www.geocities.com/harold_fortuin/HFCompos.html

But scroll down to "Microtonal Music Including Clavette" section and click on an ear icon :)

Happy listening,
Harold

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Margo Schulter <mschulter@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2006 MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> > Posted by: "dar kone" zarkorgon@... zarkorgon
> > Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:09 pm (PDT)
>
> > This gave me a listing of the ratios (fractions) for the complete musical scale.
> > HOWEVER,
> > I'd like to do the same thing for a completely different type of scale, an unsual one;
> > (what are the commands to use? I looked everywhere in the app but couldn't figure
out how to do this)
> > (Parameters below)
> > Scale based on;
> > 7 to 4 ratio of the natural seventh harmonic creates a new musical scale, a five tone,
pentatonic scale.
> > Natural five tone octave intervals based on seventh harmonic
>
> Hello, there, and welcome to MakeMicroMusic.
>
> As to 7:4, I would say that it is a very pleasant and harmonious interval
> provided that the stylistic context is right. In conventional 16th-century
> European counterpoint, for example, 7:4 tends to present as rather
> dissonant, like any minor seventh. However, in a 14th-century or
> 20th-century style it could be quite suave, and in some current styles it
> can even serve as a stable concord.
>
> Unfortunately, I'm not sure just what kind of scale you are striving for,
> although one possibility is this just tuning, which in Scala format might
> be listed:
>
> 7/6
> 4/3
> 3/2
> 7/4
> 2/1
>
> This just scale has five notes per octave, and in fact is a kind of
> slendro pentatonic used by Lou Harrison and others. It could also be
> expressed as a ratio 12:14:16:18:21:24.
>
> > The ratio of these numbers is the division of seven, an interval
> > between the overtones not used in other harmonic structures. 7/7, 7/6,
> > 7/5, 7/4, 7/3, 7/2, 7/1. Out of this structure of fundamental tones,
> > emerges five intervals. By doubling the five-tone scale we attain the
> > oldest existing scale tenfold scale, called the Slendro scale, much
> > older then the Pythagorean sevenfold octave.
>
> Maybe I should explain that a slendro scale generally has five notes per
> octave, which are often not too far from an equal fivefold division of the
> octave where each step would be 240 cents, but somewhat unequal. Since
> each traditional gamelan ensemble has its own unique intonation, we can
> only list some typical patterns, included for example in the Scala scale
> archive.
>
> > The one seventh interval is different from the major second of 1/9 and
> > 1/10. When used, however, this 1/7th interval will divide the octave
> > into five parts.
>
> Actually, if I understand this, you are referring to an 8:7 major second,
> about 231 cents, a bit smaller than precisely 1/5 octave (240 cents).
>
> You also refer to a tuning using roots of five. This description sounds
> like 5-tone equal temperament or 5-tET, which you could generate in Scala
> simply by typing, at least in the version I use,
>
> equaltemp 5
>
> The steps would be
>
> 240.000
> 480.000
> 720.000
> 960.000
> 1200.000
>
> > As mentioned, the frequency and harmonics of the natural acoustic
> > seventh are dissonant when compared to virtually all known tuning
> > systems of the world. Although the acoustic seventh is avoided as an
> > unacceptably sour note, the interval is still always present as a
> > natural acoustic phenomenon. The seventh harmonic can be heard as an
> > overtone or undertone in some instruments, particularly those rich in
> > timbre (which means harmonics) such as a violin.
>
> Actually, I would say that 7:4 is quite smooth and concordant, and that
> this interval or close approximations can occur in various world musics.
> However, it has not been much used in historical European keyboard
> temperaments -- although it does occur in meantone tunings.
>
> > When the acoustic seventh is taken as the basic interval for the
> > creation of a musical scale, new tones and intervals (distances between
> > the notes) result. The 7 to 4 ratio of the natural seventh harmonic
> > creates a new musical scale, a five tone, pentatonic scale.
>
> > What unique effective temperament system based on the natural
> > harmonics of the seventh itself would give the best resuts to get a
> > functionaing music scale, NOT based on square root of 2, and what would
> > it look like based on the square root of two?
>
> On this point I'm a bit confused, because I'm not sure how the square root
> of two (which could define a 600-cent or half-octave interval) would come
> into this.
>
> However, as I've suggested, the just tuning 7/6 4/3 3/2 7/4 2/1 might meet
> some of what you describe, although I would hardly call it "chaotic."
>
> Please forgive me if I'm not following all that you're asking, and please
> feel free to ask more.
>
> Peace and love,
>
> Margo Schulter
> mschulter@...
>

🔗dar kone <zarkorgon@...>

Margo, I've been asking around for some time about a slendro, pentatonic scale based on the natural 7th (7/4) for some time.

You are the very first person to have provided feedback that was so meaningful and in depth. Thank you very much for taking the time and making the effort to review my email and respond. Your comments are very helpful.

If I may, I will elaborate further. There is a scale called 'Primasounds', that apparently has extremely unusual characteristics. There scale is proprietary, which is fine. I do not need to nor wish, to 'crack' their secret scale. However, the anomalous effect they claim their scale to have, this I would like to replicate. My understanding is that, this should be doable using a scale of similiar properties and principals. The trick however is discovering and understanding this enough to replicate the effect. Your knowledge of music and tuning exceeds mine. Thankfully. Below are some snippets realtive to understanding more about this scale and also some links that contain relevant specific info on all this. I would very much love to hear your thoughts on all this and any additional comments and insights.

I would speculate, that we would know we are on the right track with a tuning (scale) were the same phenomenal characteristics (described below) present.

Best Regards

Chapter 14: The Physics of PrimaSounds?
By R.C.L.

" It appears as if PrimaSounds produce standing waves - a wall of sound effect - that is not tied to the acoustics of the room itself. Instead, it appears to have more to do with the people in the room and their energy fields."

The evidence which initially led to this circular or vortex sound wave theory was the discovery that an unusual number of "standing waves" are always created in any room when PrimaSounds is played. This unusual acoustic phenomenon was noticed right away by the Keyserlings when the music was first performed in 1971. It sounds as if all of the PrimaSound tones are standing waves. This phenomenon in turn suggested circular waves.
For normal longitudinal sound waves, this kind of multiple standing wave phenomenon would not be possible, or at least very rare and uncommon. A standing wave is one which remains in place, with clear position and form. A few, and only a few, standing waves are always created with longitudinal waves in any enclosed room. Which particular frequencies of longitudinal sound will become standing waves is based on the size of the room, and the interaction of the sound waves. Specifically it is based on the distance between the walls, and the phase effects, or interactions, between the waves. For example, if the room is fifteen feet long, then the sound wave which has a frequency that makes it fifteen feet long will be reinforced by the room itself. The sound wave ends at the wall and bounces back to the other wall, touching the wall just when it is reversing direction. Waves the size of one-half the room size, one-fourth, one-eighth, etc., will do the same. The waves as they
pass back going the opposite direction to the originating source cancel it out, or reinforce it according the resonance. This is known as a phase effect, and it can create a standing wave.
You can walk around a room and hear where the standing waves are resounding. They have a definite location, and since they are reinforced by the structure of the room itself, they play or resound longer. These are natural, acoustically produced standing waves. They cannot exist outdoors, barring only natural caverns or mountain wall echo effects, where the waves can reverse direction.

This is difficult to understand in the abstract, but starts to make sense when you visualize what is happening. Again, we are indebted to Professor Russel. See his animated gif below and also his web page on Superposition of Waves for a further, and better explanation.

Many investigators have reported that when PrimaSounds are played, many more standing waves can be heard in a room than when other sound frequencies are played. (Moreover some report hearing standing waves outside, but this is more problematical due to the interference of many other factors, such as wind, other sounds, etc. and is more difficult to detect.) It appears as if PrimaSounds produce standing waves - a wall of sound effect - that is not tied to the acoustics of the room itself. Instead, it appears to have more to do with the people in the room and their energy fields. The standing waves are not acoustically produced by reflection from the walls and phasing. They are produced by interaction with the life form energy fields in the room - the chakras. Thus with enough people in a room, all of the PrimaSound tones become standing waves, moving in various rotational patterns.
The rotational wave phenomenon allows us to understand this. If the sound waves become circular by interaction with the energy fields of the observers, they would naturally create more standing waves. In fact, the inherent nature of circular waves would be static, just like standing waves caused by interaction with the walls. Again the example of the ducks on water show this. The ducks are not pushed along following the movement of the wave on the water. They basically remain in one position traveling in a circular motion. First they go up and forward, then down and back. The ducks are like a PrimaSounds wave when in contact with chakra energy. They become circular standing waves.

http://www.primasounds.com/PrimaSounds/ch14.html

http://www.primasounds.com/PrimaSounds/ch13.html

index: http://www.primasounds.com/PrimaSounds/index.html

intro: http://www.primasounds.com/PrimaSounds/ch0.html
Margo Schulter <mschulter@...> wrote:

On Fri, 19 Aug 2006 MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Posted by: "dar kone" zarkorgon@... zarkorgon
> Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:09 pm (PDT)

Hello, there, and welcome to MakeMicroMusic.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure just what kind of scale you are striving for,
although one possibility is this just tuning, which in Scala format might
be listed:

7/6
4/3
3/2
7/4
2/1

This just scale has five notes per octave, and in fact is a kind of
slendro pentatonic used by Lou Harrison and others. It could also be
expressed as a ratio 12:14:16:18:21:24.

> The one seventh interval is different from the major second of 1/9 and
> 1/10. When used, however, this 1/7th interval will divide the octave
> into five parts.

Actually, if I understand this, you are referring to an 8:7 major second,
about 231 cents, a bit smaller than precisely 1/5 octave (240 cents).

You also refer to a tuning using roots of five. This description sounds
like 5-tone equal temperament or 5-tET, which you could generate in Scala
simply by typing, at least in the version I use,

equaltemp 5

The steps would be

240.000
480.000
720.000
960.000
1200.000

On this point I'm a bit confused, because I'm not sure how the square root
of two (which could define a 600-cent or half-octave interval) would come
into this.

However, as I've suggested, the just tuning 7/6 4/3 3/2 7/4 2/1 might meet
some of what you describe, although I would hardly call it "chaotic."

Please forgive me if I'm not following all that you're asking, and please
feel free to ask more.

Peace and love,

Margo Schulter
mschulter@...

---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗kevin ryan <bentivi_cdo@...>

I don't know enough about the science of sound to say whether septimal intervals would cause standing waves any more than any other intervals, but I highly doubt that any standing waves are going to be caused by interactions with your chakras. That's not to say that a primasound scale might sound really cool or have interesting psychological/physiological effects, but the pseudoscience on the primasounds website is a little far-fetched.
check out the "Just Intonation Primer" www.justintonation.net/primer1.html
or Harry Partch's "Genesis of a Music" for info on Tuning theory
http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/sound/soundtoc.html for info on standing waves and physics of sound
and http://skepdic.com/pseudosc.html for a healthy dose of skepticism

dar kone <zarkorgon@...> wrote:

Margo, I've been asking around for some time about a slendro, pentatonic scale based on the natural 7th (7/4) for some time.

I would speculate, that we would know we are on the right track with a tuning (scale) were the same phenomenal characteristics (described below) present.

Best Regards

Chapter 14: The Physics of PrimaSounds?
By R.C.L.

http://www.primasounds.com/PrimaSounds/ch14.html

http://www.primasounds.com/PrimaSounds/ch13.html

index: http://www.primasounds.com/PrimaSounds/index.html

intro: http://www.primasounds.com/PrimaSounds/ch0.html
Margo Schulter <mschulter@...> wrote:

On Fri, 19 Aug 2006 MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Posted by: "dar kone" zarkorgon@... zarkorgon
> Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:09 pm (PDT)

Hello, there, and welcome to MakeMicroMusic.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure just what kind of scale you are striving for,
although one possibility is this just tuning, which in Scala format might
be listed:

7/6
4/3
3/2
7/4
2/1

This just scale has five notes per octave, and in fact is a kind of
slendro pentatonic used by Lou Harrison and others. It could also be
expressed as a ratio 12:14:16:18:21:24.

> The one seventh interval is different from the major second of 1/9 and
> 1/10. When used, however, this 1/7th interval will divide the octave
> into five parts.

Actually, if I understand this, you are referring to an 8:7 major second,
about 231 cents, a bit smaller than precisely 1/5 octave (240 cents).

You also refer to a tuning using roots of five. This description sounds
like 5-tone equal temperament or 5-tET, which you could generate in Scala
simply by typing, at least in the version I use,

equaltemp 5

The steps would be

240.000
480.000
720.000
960.000
1200.000

On this point I'm a bit confused, because I'm not sure how the square root
of two (which could define a 600-cent or half-octave interval) would come
into this.

However, as I've suggested, the just tuning 7/6 4/3 3/2 7/4 2/1 might meet
some of what you describe, although I would hardly call it "chaotic."

Please forgive me if I'm not following all that you're asking, and please
feel free to ask more.

Peace and love,

Margo Schulter
mschulter@...

---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

online interview with yours truly

🔗Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@...>

🔗dar kone <zarkorgon@...>

🔗Margo Schulter <mschulter@...>

🔗harold_fortuin <harold@...>

🔗dar kone <zarkorgon@...>

🔗kevin ryan <bentivi_cdo@...>