Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Recontextualization

I'm not sure if this is the right forum, but it's Making and it's
Music, and it's almost Microtonal.

I have a work in progress, and while it's in 12-EDO, I am specifically
trying to recontextualize 12-EDO in such a way that it can be heard as
microtonal, in a way. I don't particularly want to repeat serialism,
of course, so what I'm aiming for is a sort of consonant pantonalism.
Instead of 12-tone (equal) Temperament, 12-tone EQUAL division.

So I start with a simple melody, in this case just a circle of
alternating 7s up, 5s down. From each of these root notes, *any*
consonant or unstable triad in any key can be built as long as it
contains the root note. There's no functionality going on here, except
that a phrase has to begin and end on a consonance.

Am I reinventing the wheel? Does this belong in a different forum?

Some of these ideas crystalized out of reading a brief synopsis of
Pitch Axis Theory, the article was not very clear but it might be a
similar idea. I'd like to know if there is any good information
available about different ways of organizing harmony, besides serially
or functionally. Someone briefly mentioned in discussion of the
Thummer that they though Partch's music was arrainged differently.
Since 11/8 seems to lie outside of the circle of fifths, that makes
sense. Using meantone structure to describe non-meantone music is, to
steal a phrase, like dancing about architecture.

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

Hi.

Rozencrantz the Sane escreveu:
> I'm not sure if this is the right forum, but it's Making and it's
> Music, and it's almost Microtonal.
> > I have a work in progress, and while it's in 12-EDO, I am specifically
> trying to recontextualize 12-EDO in such a way that it can be heard as
> microtonal, in a way.

It is difficult figure out what you mean with 12-EDO as microtonal. Could you explain about tha, please?

> I don't particularly want to repeat serialism,
> of course, so what I'm aiming for is a sort of consonant pantonalism.
> Instead of 12-tone (equal) Temperament, 12-tone EQUAL division.
> > So I start with a simple melody, in this case just a circle of
> alternating 7s up, 5s down. From each of these root notes, *any*
> consonant or unstable triad in any key can be built as long as it
> contains the root note. There's no functionality going on here, except
> that a phrase has to begin and end on a consonance.

That is a very well known harmonization approach used by jazz musicians. But they only are not usually limited to use triads.

Cheers,
Hudson

_______________________________________________________ Novidade no Yahoo! Mail: receba alertas de novas mensagens no seu celular. Registre seu aparelho agora! http://br.mobile.yahoo.com/mailalertas/

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

Can we hear it? -C.

At 11:43 PM 7/25/2006, you wrote:
>I'm not sure if this is the right forum, but it's Making and it's
>Music, and it's almost Microtonal.
>
>I have a work in progress, and while it's in 12-EDO, I am specifically
>trying to recontextualize 12-EDO in such a way that it can be heard as
>microtonal, in a way. I don't particularly want to repeat serialism,
>of course, so what I'm aiming for is a sort of consonant pantonalism.
>Instead of 12-tone (equal) Temperament, 12-tone EQUAL division.
>
>So I start with a simple melody, in this case just a circle of
>alternating 7s up, 5s down. From each of these root notes, *any*
>consonant or unstable triad in any key can be built as long as it
>contains the root note. There's no functionality going on here, except
>that a phrase has to begin and end on a consonance.
>
>Am I reinventing the wheel? Does this belong in a different forum?
>
>Some of these ideas crystalized out of reading a brief synopsis of
>Pitch Axis Theory, the article was not very clear but it might be a
>similar idea. I'd like to know if there is any good information
>available about different ways of organizing harmony, besides serially
>or functionally. Someone briefly mentioned in discussion of the
>Thummer that they though Partch's music was arrainged differently.
>Since 11/8 seems to lie outside of the circle of fifths, that makes
>sense. Using meantone structure to describe non-meantone music is, to
>steal a phrase, like dancing about architecture.
>
>--TRISTAN
>(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

I've put a sample, still in 12-EDO, of the first 3 phrases, just the
bass and harmony so far, up at http://zebox.com/rozencrantz/
Today I will begin moving it into 300-EDO, and working out the rest of
the piece.

On 7/26/06, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:

> It is difficult figure out what you mean with 12-EDO as microtonal.
> Could you explain about tha, please?

I can try. While 12-EDO is 12-EDO, and therefore not microtonal, the
purpose of this project is to study organization of larger numbers of
pitches through a familiar context.

But ultimately my goal is more complex: I plan on switching to 300-EDO
soon, and I'm using 12-EDO as a jumping off point. I plan on expanding
the basis of the piece to encompass all 300 notes. Additionally, I
want to add fully microtonal harmonization to the 300-EDO base.

> That is a very well known harmonization approach used by jazz musicians.
> But they only are not usually limited to use triads.

I'm not really, but I only have three notes at a time so far. I didn't
know about that, though, it's good to know when you're reinventing a
wheel, I'll back off and try something else.

> Cheers,
> Hudson

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

I see "Gesture Studies" 1-4. What exactly should I download?

-Carl

At 01:15 PM 7/26/2006, you wrote:
>I've put a sample, still in 12-EDO, of the first 3 phrases, just the
>bass and harmony so far, up at http://zebox.com/rozencrantz/
>Today I will begin moving it into 300-EDO, and working out the rest of
>the piece.
>
>On 7/26/06, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
>
>> It is difficult figure out what you mean with 12-EDO as microtonal.
>> Could you explain about tha, please?
>
>I can try. While 12-EDO is 12-EDO, and therefore not microtonal, the
>purpose of this project is to study organization of larger numbers of
>pitches through a familiar context.
>
>But ultimately my goal is more complex: I plan on switching to 300-EDO
>soon, and I'm using 12-EDO as a jumping off point. I plan on expanding
>the basis of the piece to encompass all 300 notes. Additionally, I
>want to add fully microtonal harmonization to the 300-EDO base.
>
>> That is a very well known harmonization approach used by jazz musicians.
>> But they only are not usually limited to use triads.
>
>I'm not really, but I only have three notes at a time so far. I didn't
>know about that, though, it's good to know when you're reinventing a
>wheel, I'll back off and try something else.
>
>> Cheers,
>> Hudson
>
>--TRISTAN
>(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

Ok, working around zebox's nastiness, I found the direct
link:

http://zebox.com/a4/rozencrantz_-_Color_Wheel_Sample.mp3

-Carl

>Sorry, I mis-read you. But now I can't get it to play. Is
>anyone else having trouble?
>
>http://zebox.com/rozencrantz/
>
>-Carl
>
>At 08:47 PM 7/26/2006, you wrote:
>>That's it, about 25 seconds, it's the progressions I built on C G and
>>D. Sorry I wasn't clearer.
>>
>>On 7/26/06, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>>> I see Color Wheel Sample, but their aren't three of those.
>>> Or three of anything. Can you give me any detail at all on
>>> what should eventually show up, or better yet, wait until it
>>> does show up before posting?
>>>
>>
>>--TRISTAN
>>(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

Hey, this sounds great. Can't wait to hear the 300-tET version.
I don't know any name for this type of chord progression (maybe
somebody else does) other than it sounds like a bit of pedal
point...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedal_point

-Carl

At 10:53 PM 7/26/2006, you wrote:
>Ok, working around zebox's nastiness, I found the direct
>link:
>
>http://zebox.com/a4/rozencrantz_-_Color_Wheel_Sample.mp3
>
>-Carl
>
>>Sorry, I mis-read you. But now I can't get it to play. Is
>>anyone else having trouble?
>>
>>http://zebox.com/rozencrantz/
>>
>>-Carl
>>
>>At 08:47 PM 7/26/2006, you wrote:
>>>That's it, about 25 seconds, it's the progressions I built on C G and
>>>D. Sorry I wasn't clearer.
>>>
>>>On 7/26/06, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>>>> I see Color Wheel Sample, but their aren't three of those.
>>>> Or three of anything. Can you give me any detail at all on
>>>> what should eventually show up, or better yet, wait until it
>>>> does show up before posting?
>>>>
>>>
>>>--TRISTAN
>>>(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

Tristan wrote...

>I'm not sure if this is the right forum, but it's Making and it's
>Music, and it's almost Microtonal.
>
>I have a work in progress, and while it's in 12-EDO, I am specifically
>trying to recontextualize 12-EDO in such a way that it can be heard as
>microtonal, in a way. I don't particularly want to repeat serialism,
>of course, so what I'm aiming for is a sort of consonant pantonalism.
>Instead of 12-tone (equal) Temperament, 12-tone EQUAL division.
>
>So I start with a simple melody, in this case just a circle of
>alternating 7s up, 5s down. From each of these root notes, *any*
>consonant or unstable triad in any key can be built as long as it
>contains the root note. There's no functionality going on here, except
>that a phrase has to begin and end on a consonance.
>
>Am I reinventing the wheel? Does this belong in a different forum?
>
>Some of these ideas crystalized out of reading a brief synopsis of
>Pitch Axis Theory,

I dunno what Pitch Axis Theory is, but my initial guess of it being
completely useless was obviously wrong!

>I'd like to know if there is any good information
>available about different ways of organizing harmony, besides serially
>or functionally. Someone briefly mentioned in discussion of the
>Thummer that they though Partch's music was arrainged differently.

Partch's music employs a wide variety of different structures and
forms. One prominent feature of his microtonal music theory, which
he did often use in his compositions, is that of the tonality diamond
and its modulations. I highly recommend his book Genesis of a Music
if you don't already have it...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/030680106X/

Basically it's a bunch of otonal and utonal (aka harmonic and
subharmonic aka "major" and "minor") JI chords connected by common
dyads (in fact, all sharing a single pitch called 1/1).

Prent Rodgers' music uses the diamond more strictly than Partch's,
and Prent has a Java diamond on his web site you can play...

http://prodgers13.home.comcast.net/

Erv Wilson's stellated CPS scales are similar in that they're a
bunch of otonal and utonal chords connected by common dyads, but
they share no single pitch (consequently, they have more notes/octave
in a given odd limit than Partch's diamonds).

The 5-limit diamond is playable in 12-tET, and so it is likely
to appear around the way, though Western music focuses more on
the collection of chords in the diatonic scale.

>Since 11/8 seems to lie outside of the circle of fifths, that makes
>sense.

It is true that Partch's diamond allows modulation by 11:8 (while
preserving a common dyad between the two hexads), whereas Western
music is more focused on 3:2. But more generally, Partch's music
is 11-limit whereas Western music very seldom conjures anything
above the 9-limit. That's the biggest difference.

>Using meantone structure to describe non-meantone music is, to
>steal a phrase, like dancing about architecture.

Extended meantone (31-tET) can capture the essence of the 11-limit
diamond quite well. The biggest problem to my ears is the accuracy
of the 9:8. But for many purposes it's quite satisfactory. 41-tET,
though not a meantone, is better if you can afford 10 more notes.
Of course, if you're satisfied with the diamond by itself, it has
only 29 notes in pure JI.

-Carl

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

it is the comparison that Erv made. and a good one since while you have only tetrads you have them at more locales that you do with the diamond.
Perhaps clearer is the feature that every tone in an eikosany will function as 1-3-5-7-9-11 either harmonically or subharmonically, each in a unique way
the diamond only has 29 tones if it is the 1-3-5-7-9-11 one.
given the choice of the two, i chose the eikosany and have never regretted it

Carl Lumma wrote:
> You'll notice I said *stellated*. It isn't fair to compare the
> Eikosany to the diamond, since its chords are tetrads (vs. hexads).
> Anyway, the 11-limit diamond has 29, not 31 tones/octave.
>
> Mind you, the diamonds complete utonal hexads can be a bit
> thick, and the Eikosany's subsets are a great way to voice
> them.
>
> -Carl
>
> >> the Eikosany has 20 tones to the diamond s31
>>
>> >>> Erv Wilson's stellated CPS scales are similar in that they're a
>>> bunch of otonal and utonal chords connected by common dyads, but
>>> they share no single pitch (consequently, they have more notes/octave
>>> in a given odd limit than Partch's diamonds).
>>> >
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

Carl Lumma escreveu:
> Ok, working around zebox's nastiness, I found the direct
> link:
> > http://zebox.com/a4/rozencrantz_-_Color_Wheel_Sample.mp3
> > -Carl

That approach of that site is really awful. One needs go to Rozencrantz page, than to a download page, then get a file with extension m3u, then open it with a text editor and copy the link, and finally paste the link to the download manager... And I was thinking that sourceforge was not comfortable to use...

Maybe there is a wasy to shorten that path, Rozencrantz?

Cheers,
Hudson

_______________________________________________________ O Yahoo! est� de cara nova. Venha conferir! http://br.yahoo.com/preview

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>

Hi, Rozencrantz.

Carl Lumma escreveu:
> Hey, this sounds great. Can't wait to hear the 300-tET version.
> I don't know any name for this type of chord progression (maybe
> somebody else does) other than it sounds like a bit of pedal
> point...
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedal_point
> > -Carl

That is a sort of pedal point.

I should point out that there are _functional_ tonal passages (T-S-D7) that I am not sure if they are intended or not. That functionality is the subject of the following comments.

[I am calling ``block'' each one of the chords sequences on a single pedal tone.]

The initial chord of each block is (by its structure) a dominant seventh chord; the immediate continuation seems to neutralize its tonal effect, although the memory, helped by the pedal tone, can recall (or even hold) the original function (V7).

After various chords, in each block, the before-the-last chord is a major chord with major seventh, which sounds like a rest point, after some suspensive/tense sonorities, and the bass coincides with the fundamental of the chord. It resembles, by its structure, a _tonic chord_ (after all, the pedal is its fundamental). To me, it is like a sudden _jump_ to the _dominant_ region (remember that the initial sonority has the structure of a dominant chord, and the same fundamental tone hold as pedal). In other words: the initial dominant chord is adorned is several ways until be retaken, but suddenly changed into a major seventh chord, becoming this way a tonic chord, function that is then _confirmed_ by the following two chords.

The next chord is 4/6 on the same bass, which functional interpretation is: _subdominant_ (second inversion) on a tonic pedal.

Then, the whole block is tranposed fourth down (or fifth up, for the bass), arriving to the dominant seventh chord, now in a context in which it is really a dominant (V7), due to the previous chords (I-IV).

Then the sequence continues, again jumping suddenly to the dominant of the dominant (and presumably so on). It is fully tonal, though there are no complete cadences or modulations.

The passages between the blocks sound hard to me, due to the skips of the bass from a 4-6 chord to another note, exactly in the moment in that the traditional tonal relations become explicit. I think those skips might work with different harmonic relations.

I am writting these comments only to ask you if you have really the intention to use such traditional tonal _progressions_ (I-IV-V7) in your piece, since you wrote before:

<<<
So I start with a simple melody, in this case just a circle of
alternating 7s up, 5s down. From each of these root notes, *any*
consonant or unstable triad in any key can be built as long as it
contains the root note. *There's no functionality going on here* , except that a phrase has to begin and end on a consonance.
>>>

I should note still that when one put the axis pitch in the bass, starting and ending as fundamental of the chords, the whole sequence results subject to that fundamental, and a strong centricity arises. That centricity -- according to the actual sequences of chords -- may be functional (tonal) or not (kind of modal). If the axis pitch were in a _middle or top voice_ , it would be easier to build *non-functional sequences* (instead of functional _progressions_), since the *fundamentals* could indeed change inside a single block.

That is a suggestion you can try with: put the axis in a middle or top voice, and try (if you wish) avoid simple tonal chord progressions.

Regards,
Hudson

_______________________________________________________ O Yahoo! est� de cara nova. Venha conferir! http://br.yahoo.com/preview

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 7/27/06, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
> That is a sort of pedal point.
....
> That is a suggestion you can try with: put the axis in a middle or top
> voice, and try (if you wish) avoid simple tonal chord progressions.
>
> Regards,
> Hudson

That's all very good advice, thank you. As I said, I'm still
experimenting with half-formed ideas, trying different ways of
organizing the notes, etc. There will probably be a lot of
wheel-reinventing going on, because I'm still so early in my
education.

I'm going to try some things you suggested, and look into the things
Carl suggested. It's difficult for me to hold more than 7 notes in my
head at one time, especially unfamiliar notes. One Gradus at a time.

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)