Karnatic music

A GENTLE INTRODUCTION TO
SOUTH INDIAN CLASSICAL (KARNATIC) MUSIC

http://www.khazana.com/et/music/gentle1.asp?
mscssid=GF0VXHWS0H6V8HBT7M0M93J2ELMWA6S0

Does anyone have any free clips of this? It might be at the
link above but I didn't see it.

I've been e-mailing a guy named Richard Cooper regarding
non-12 music. He plays and listens to 12 but is not impressed
with non-12. Some comments of his (got permission) are below.
If some want to reply that's up to you. I'll consider getting
them out to him. A clip or two of Karnatic music is the main thing
for right now. -Stephen

--------------------------------------------------------------------

However, that page you linked to says in a subtle way what I've
been saying:

"The basic reason for such demands for more than twelve 'srutis'
per octave is that Indian music, (not just Karnatic music) seems
to 'flow' through the frequencies, whereas a Western song seems
'jumpy'."

It sounds to me like what they're doing is very much a real
microtonal scale, they're progressing through the notes set on
perfect ratios, and because the perfect ratios aren't
self-consistant, this requires several different versions of
each note as the song progresses through different notes. Look
at the names of the notes in Table III on that page. There's
"Sa" which is the root note, which only has one version, and Pa
which is the perfect 3:2, then there are four different versions
of six other notes. I imagine there are only seven note names
because the notes are used only seven at a time; each version of
each note is used for some time, then later in the song a
different version of that note is used. If you convert all of
the frequency values in Table III on that page into cents
values, and plot them on some graph paper (which I've done, but
my dumb ass already deleted the converted values forgetting just
how much work it took to convert them) then you see that while
the
root note and the 3:2 ratio note are spot on, the remaining
notes are all pretty much in pairs to the right and left of each
of the 12 tone equal temprement notes, the biggest exception
being the very last one which is pretty much spot on in between
notes.

> I tried to find some free clips but could not.

I'm interested to hear what it sounds like if you ever do find a
recording. I suspect that it will only sound a little unusual
if it sounds unusual at all, which may well be why it is
difficult to find a recording. It may sound so not-unsual that
no one sees the point in doing anything but describing in text
why it is different.

> Well, I would say there is science involved regarding the
harmonics. But we
> can see once again that so so much is culture. 22 notes, I
didn't know that
> until now.

If you could see the plot that I made on paper, it really isn't
all that unusual. It's basically a 24 tone scale, but whereas
all of the other notes are represented by two tones, one
slightly above and one slightly below the 12TET tone, the C and
G notes are represented by only one tone. The only really
unusual thing is that the pair for B, the one that would be just
slightly higher than B is actually nearly between B and C.
There's certainly a culture aspect to it, but I still believe
they're playing seven notes to an octave and simply modifying
the frequency of each note as the song goes on, which is what
the true microtonal scales are all about. In our culture we
just don't mess with that sort of nonsense, and in their
culture, they don't understand how we do without it. I still
suspect that the largest difference between their music and ours
will be along the lines of the difference between classical
music and rap music, which is to say that there will be
differences so
large that any difference in the musical scale will seem
insignifigant.

(Comments of Richard Cooper and Stephen Szpak)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>
>
> > SOUTH INDIAN CLASSICAL (KARNATIC) MUSIC
>
I just found this site for free (I assume it is... Bollywood music:

http://www.gayaki.com/

I wouldn't think Karnatic and Bollywood are at all the same (?)
but do they use the same scale? What scale does Bollywood use?

Bollywood clip here. Sound quality poor.

http://www.gayaki.com/songs-of-Fanaa.html

Varied songs, Destroyed in Love is a instrumental.
This is sort of neat. (Blame Jon for telling me about Bollywood :)

Basics of Bollywood here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollywood#Bollywood_song_and_dance

-Stephen

stephenszpak wrote:
> A GENTLE INTRODUCTION TO > SOUTH INDIAN CLASSICAL (KARNATIC) MUSIC
> > > http://www.khazana.com/et/music/gentle1.asp?
> mscssid=GF0VXHWS0H6V8HBT7M0M93J2ELMWA6S0
> > Does anyone have any free clips of this? It might be at the
> link above but I didn't see it.
> > I've been e-mailing a guy named Richard Cooper regarding
> non-12 music. He plays and listens to 12 but is not impressed
> with non-12. Some comments of his (got permission) are below.
> If some want to reply that's up to you. I'll consider getting
> them out to him. A clip or two of Karnatic music is the main thing
> for right now. -Stephen

Back when mp3.com was around you could probably find some. I know I've seen Indian music on mp3.com but I don't know where in India it was from. Whether the tuning of Indian music is something one should expect to be "impressed with" I can't say.

These days, Alta Vista audio search (http://www.altavista.com/audio/) might be your best bet. And in fact, check this out:

http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivkuma/personal/music/basics/ramesh/gentle-intro-part-I.mp3

Straight from an Alta Vista search.

You may also want to search for "Carnatic" as an alternative spelling (English is horribly inconsistent at spelling foreign words from non-Latin scripts). Amazon.com has CDs under both spellings "Carnatic" and "Karnatic", and some of them even have brief samples you can listen to online. (e.g.)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000A1ECM/sr=8-9/qid=1152758053/ref=sr_1_9/103-8965055-4051839?ie=UTF8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000037ED/ref=pd_bxgy_text_b/103-8965055-4051839?ie=UTF8

I suppose for a fair comparison you'd need to hear something in traditional tuning vs. the same music on a 12-ET instrument. I haven't heard such a comparison, but I've heard recordings of Burmese music and Balinese gamelan music played on a 12-ET piano. Call me a purist, but I prefer the original tunings. Half of the character of the music in these cases comes from the tuning (approx. 7-ET for Burmese, 5-note pelog scales for Balinese gamelan). The difference between Indian scales and 12-ET is more subtle and might be more difficult for inexperienced ears to appreciate. (more like the difference between Mozart being played in a historically correct tuning vs. a modern 12-ET piano).

I think a huge problem with studying the tuning of other cultures is
that almost the entire world has been saturated with 12et, so that one
can never be sure what a really "traditional" intonation would sound
like. If the musicians hear 12 on a daily basis, it can be assumed
that it will begin to influence their own sense of intonation when
they play.

I saw Ravi Shankar in concert, at one point he started playing these
really bluesy 7ths.* It was entertaining to see him throw these
different things together and have fun with them, but at the same time
part of me was dissappointed, because that wasn't what I came to hear.

Such is the fate of this cultural imperialism. Time to damn the Man and MMM!

:-D

-Chris

* I'm not saying bluesy 7ths are 12et... just that in a pluralistic
world this cross-pollination is bound to happen.

As someone who does a show of world music. i am always surprised at how much non 12 music there still is.
Indian music tunings is probably the basis of western tuning and i would imagine that over even the last couple of centuries, its contact with its neighbors has involved a bit of incorporation of its scales, much which would cover what we think of as blues notes.

c.m.bryan wrote:
> I think a huge problem with studying the tuning of other cultures is
> that almost the entire world has been saturated with 12et, so that one
> can never be sure what a really "traditional" intonation would sound
> like. If the musicians hear 12 on a daily basis, it can be assumed
> that it will begin to influence their own sense of intonation when
> they play.
>
> I saw Ravi Shankar in concert, at one point he started playing these
> really bluesy 7ths.* It was entertaining to see him throw these
> different things together and have fun with them, but at the same time
> part of me was dissappointed, because that wasn't what I came to hear.
>
> Such is the fate of this cultural imperialism. Time to damn the Man and MMM!
>
> :-D
>
> -Chris
>
> * I'm not saying bluesy 7ths are 12et... just that in a pluralistic
> world this cross-pollination is bound to happen.
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On Thursday 13 July 2006 2:40 am, c.m.bryan wrote:
> I think a huge problem with studying the tuning of other cultures is
> that almost the entire world has been saturated with 12et, so that one
> can never be sure what a really "traditional" intonation would sound
> like. If the musicians hear 12 on a daily basis, it can be assumed
> that it will begin to influence their own sense of intonation when
> they play.
>
> I saw Ravi Shankar in concert, at one point he started playing these
> really bluesy 7ths.* It was entertaining to see him throw these
> different things together and have fun with them, but at the same time
> part of me was dissappointed, because that wasn't what I came to hear.
>
> Such is the fate of this cultural imperialism. Time to damn the Man and
> MMM!

Then again, Ravi S. is considered to be impure, the equivalent of 'pop', by
hardcore Indian music fans anyway...

-A.

actually some consider him very academic.

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> On Thursday 13 July 2006 2:40 am, c.m.bryan wrote:
> >> I think a huge problem with studying the tuning of other cultures is
>> that almost the entire world has been saturated with 12et, so that one
>> can never be sure what a really "traditional" intonation would sound
>> like. If the musicians hear 12 on a daily basis, it can be assumed
>> that it will begin to influence their own sense of intonation when
>> they play.
>>
>> I saw Ravi Shankar in concert, at one point he started playing these
>> really bluesy 7ths.* It was entertaining to see him throw these
>> different things together and have fun with them, but at the same time
>> part of me was dissappointed, because that wasn't what I came to hear.
>>
>> Such is the fate of this cultural imperialism. Time to damn the Man and
>> MMM!
>> >
> Then again, Ravi S. is considered to be impure, the equivalent of 'pop', by > hardcore Indian music fans anyway...
>
> -A.
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Krister Johnson
<aaron@...> wrote:
>
> On Thursday 13 July 2006 2:40 am, c.m.bryan wrote:
> > I think a huge problem with studying the tuning of other cultures is
> > that almost the entire world has been saturated with 12et, so that one
> > can never be sure what a really "traditional" intonation would sound
> > like. If the musicians hear 12 on a daily basis, it can be assumed
> > that it will begin to influence their own sense of intonation when
> > they play.
> >
> > I saw Ravi Shankar in concert, at one point he started playing these
> > really bluesy 7ths.* It was entertaining to see him throw these
> > different things together and have fun with them, but at the same time
> > part of me was dissappointed, because that wasn't what I came to hear.
> >
> > Such is the fate of this cultural imperialism. Time to damn the
Man and
> > MMM!
>
> Then again, Ravi S. is considered to be impure, the equivalent of
'pop', by
> hardcore Indian music fans anyway...

How many of these fans are actually of Indian descent?

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...>
wrote:
>

Herman

> stephenszpak wrote:
> > A GENTLE INTRODUCTION TO
> > SOUTH INDIAN CLASSICAL (KARNATIC) MUSIC
> >
> >
> > http://www.khazana.com/et/music/gentle1.asp?
> > mscssid=GF0VXHWS0H6V8HBT7M0M93J2ELMWA6S0
> >
> >> > for right now. -Stephen
>
> Back when mp3.com was around you could probably find some. I know
I've
> seen Indian music on mp3.com but I don't know where in India it
was
> from. Whether the tuning of Indian music is something one should
expect
> to be "impressed with" I can't say.
>
> These days, Alta Vista audio search
(http://www.altavista.com/audio/)
> might be your best bet. And in fact, check this out:
>
>
http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/Homepages/shivkuma/personal/music/basics/rame
sh/gentle-intro-part-I.mp3

++++ This is everything about Karnatic music. Multiple parts.
Link above is just the first. Anyway more than I need right
now. It is very comprehensive if anyone wants to save the
link for future study.

>
> Straight from an Alta Vista search.
>
> You may also want to search for "Carnatic" as an alternative
spelling
> (English is horribly inconsistent at spelling foreign words from
> non-Latin scripts). Amazon.com has CDs under both
spellings "Carnatic"
> and "Karnatic", and some of them even have brief samples you can
listen
> to online. (e.g.)
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000A1ECM/sr=8-
9/qid=1152758053/ref=sr_1_9/103-8965055-4051839?ie=UTF8
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000037ED/ref=pd_bxgy_text_b/103-
8965055-4051839?ie=UTF8

++++I got the top one out to Richard. Contains 7 or so samples if
anyone has 4 minutes to spare, and has interest in this.

Thank you for the extensive reply. I'm going to post a little more
on Indian music today or tomorrow. Popular though.

-Stephen

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
>
> Link about music in India. Explains Indian music in 4 minutes.
Links to books and CD's with their clips.

http://chandrakantha.com/articles/indian_music/

Excerpt below:

--------------------------------------------------------

Today there are two major traditions of classical music. There is
the north Indian and the south Indian tradition. The North Indian
tradition is known as Hindustani sangeet and the south Indian is
called Carnatic sangeet. Both systems are fundamentally similar but
differ in nomenclature and performance practice.
---------------------------------------------------------------

-Stephen

Hi Cris,

> * I'm not saying bluesy 7ths are 12et... just that in a pluralistic
> world this cross-pollination is bound to happen.

However, introducing microtones to Occidental students through
the blues is a very pragmatic way of understanding Indian music.
Like this short video of John mcLaughlin about his Shakti guitar:

<http://www.open-tuning.com/mp/Interview-Shakti_guitar.mpg>

Best,
Philippe