Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Re: [MMM] Digest Number 1631

> > Posted by: "stephenszpak" stephen_szpak@... stephenszpak
> > Hi All
> >
> > I've been e-mailing someone that isn't on these lists but
> > listens to a lot of 12 EDO music and also knows some tuning.
> >
> > Is the 24 note scale used in the Arab world, 24 EDO?
>
> Yahya, Ozan, Shaahin and many others on the list are really the best
> authorities to ask on this, so seek a second opinion...but speaking
> generally, no it isn't. Mikhail Mashaqa (1800 - 1889) proposed 24-edo
> for Middle Eastern music, but there were -- and are -- many different
> 24-tone tunings used by both theorists and practising musicians.

Please let me, albeit as someone learning a bit about Arabic and other
Near Eastern musics at a rather late age, clarify that 24-note models
are often used to classify scales in terms a few general interval types,
but that performers generally prefer nuanced and unequal steps.

For example, 24-EDO models permit distinguishing the "types" of a semitone
(100 cents), neutral second (150 cents), tone (200 cents), and augmented
second (300 cents). Conservatories in places such as Egypt often teach
this method without qualification, but traditional performers may make
one neutral second around 140 cents and another around 154 cents, for
example, depending in part on the maqaam or mode, and in part on the
expressive context at a given moment.

> Theorists tended toward various Pythagorean tunings based on a
> succession of pure fourths or fifths, or the addition/subtraction of
> commas from scale tones. Musicians might use any variation of
> theoretical positions, as personal taste or tradition dictated.

This is indeed one tendency that can be found in medieval and later
theory, and also in practice, since some instruments are tuned in
pure fourths or fifths. Thus Scott Marcus suggests that the Pythagorean
32:27 (around 294 cents) is a reasonable guide for a minor third.

The focus on commas can occur either in a system such as that often
favored in Turkey, where modifications are indeed shown in terms of
Pythagorean commas, with conceptually 9 to a whole-tone; also, in the
Arab world, some theorists like the concept of 9 commas to a whole-tone
as a rough guide to inflections and distinctions that the 24-EDO model
cannot express.

Additionally, there is an orientation to various just ratios built on
higher primes: e.g. 7:6, 12:11, 13:12, 14:13, 22:21, 27:26. Zalzal's
tuning of 1/1 9/8 27/22 4/3 3/2 18/11 16/9 2/1 as reported by al-Farabi
is a famous medieval example, and the Greek theorists Archytas and Ptolemy
with their emphasis on superparticular steps and intervals have had an
influence.

> I believe there is much discussion in the Middle East these days as to
> the use of high-number, equal divisions for accurately representing
> traditional scales and modes. Even 24-edo is used by some I believe, but
> may not be very widespread. Again, ask someone who knows firsthand.
>
> > (He has listened to non-12 EDO music and is NOT impressed.)

Again, Pythagorean tuning is one guide for certain intervals, but a lot
of it is up to the taste of the performers. Thus in Maqaam Bayyati, the
neutral second step above the final or resting note might typically be
around 135-145 cents in modern Egyptian practice -- smaller than the 150
cents of the 24-EDO model, but varying a bit. In the Persian Shur Dastgah,
an average size of about 135 cents has been reported for the step above
the final. If one maps this to JI measures, one might say that the Persian
step is typically somewhere between 14:13 and 13:12, and the Arabic
somewhere between 13:12 and 12:11 -- but the performers are not
necessarily aiming either for a just ratio or any equal division of the
octave.

The comma system of Turkish notation does seem compatible with either
a 53-note Pythagorean circulating tuning or 53-EDO -- although some
Turkish musicians also favor various more complex JI ratios as guidemarks.
Thus one such musician suggested to me that the smallest semitone used
in singing is around 33:32 (about 53 cents) -- defining it in terms of
this superparticular ratio (the difference between 12:11 and 9:8) rather
than as a given number of Pythagorean or quasi-Pythagorean commas (it
would be a bit more than 2 commas in these terms, maybe about 2-1/3).

From what I've read, I know that some Arab musicians are indeed concerned
that 12-EDO or 24-EDO keyboards are imposing "out-of-tune" intonation on
ensembles which should be free to do things more flexibly, or at least in
accord with the character of each maqaam or mode. This doesn't mean
opposition to fixed-pitched instruments such as the traditional _qanon_
which gives a "rule" for the rest of the ensemble, or a microtunable
keyboard which is adjusted to fit the music rather than vice versa.

The point is that intervals such as neutral seconds, thirds, sixths, and
sevenths are a basic and routine part of the modal and intervallic
structure of this music, something that simply can't be realized in
12-EDO. Again, while 24-EDO (or 17-EDO for that matter) can provide
a crude model, I'd say that practical performers rely on a variety
of standards including Pythagorean tuning of many regular intervals;
higher just ratios; and general good taste, with flexible intonation
appreciated as a high art.

By the way, Shaahin Mohajeri has recently posted some outstanding
audio files of pieces in Persian modes of the dastgah system which
illustrate both the routine neutral intervals, and fascinating tunings
for them based on often complex just ratios. This could be seen as a
further development of medieval Arabic and Persian theory.

Most appreciatively,

Margo Schulter
mschulter@...

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>
wrote:
>
Jon

If you are refering to the article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahrain

The middle classes tend to have a very cosmopolitan outlook, and
with rap music very popular among Bahrain's youth. DJ Whoo Kid said
of DJing in Bahrain: "Growing up in Queens Village, New York, I
really didn't know what to expect upon my arrival in a Muslim
country. I expected to see camels...

I thought it was quite interesting. If Arabs are listening
to this music, maybe they are making it too. I don't know if
12 has replaced 24 in Bahrain, but if that's what the kids
over there want, then let them enjoy it.

-Stephen

> Stephen,
>
> Come on - you are starting to be insulting to Arabic/Middle
Eastern music (not intentionally, but because of lack of
perspective). Please don't equate pop music - whether it is current
Bahrainian hip-hop or Bollywood in India - with the centuries of
musical culture from these areas. Arabic music is no more 12EDO than
the use of English in business would mean that Arabic countries
prefer English.
>
> Best,
> Jon
>

Re: [MMM] Digest Number 1631

🔗Margo Schulter <mschulter@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>