Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Ligeti as Microtonal Innovator

Hello, gang,

This statement that Ethan Iverson quotes by Ligeti, talking about his Hamburg Concerto of
2002, strikes me as totally implausible:

"In the small orchestra there are four natural horns, each of which can produce the 2nd to
the 16th overtone. By providing each horn or group of horns with different fundamentals I
was able to construct novel sound spectra from the resulting overtones. These harmonies,
which have never been used before, sound 'weird' in relation to harmonic
spectra."

Excuse me? Chords within the first 16 harmonics that, in 2002, had "never been used
before"?

http://thebadplus.typepad.com/dothemath/2006/06/gyrgy_ligeti_19.html

Cheers,

Kyle

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

lets not forget his use of ocarinas in his violin concerto as somehow supposedly related to the harry partch?

still maybe the last good 12 ET composer who could write for orchestra,
but maybe that was Takamitsu

kylegann1955 wrote:
> Hello, gang,
>
> This statement that Ethan Iverson quotes by Ligeti, talking about his Hamburg Concerto of > 2002, strikes me as totally implausible:
>
> "In the small orchestra there are four natural horns, each of which can produce the 2nd to > the 16th overtone. By providing each horn or group of horns with different fundamentals I > was able to construct novel sound spectra from the resulting overtones. These harmonies, > which have never been used before, sound 'weird' in relation to harmonic > spectra."
>
> Excuse me? Chords within the first 16 harmonics that, in 2002, had "never been used > before"?
>
> http://thebadplus.typepad.com/dothemath/2006/06/gyrgy_ligeti_19.html
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kyle
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Rick McGowan <rick@...>

> still maybe the last good 12 ET composer who could write for orchestra,
> but maybe that was Takamitsu

Are you kidding? What about... Danny Elfman? Or David Sosnowski? Or James
Horner? Seriously, there are plenty of fine orchestral composers working in
12-et.

Being a "good composer" has really not much to do with the particular
pitch palette, any more than being a good painter has to do with your
precise color space.

Rick

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

the people you mention are more factory heads than individuals,
and copying others doesn't count
i can do that too

Rick McGowan wrote:
>> still maybe the last good 12 ET composer who could write for orchestra,
>> but maybe that was Takamitsu
>> >
> Are you kidding? What about... Danny Elfman? Or David Sosnowski? Or James > Horner? Seriously, there are plenty of fine orchestral composers working in > 12-et.
>
> Being a "good composer" has really not much to do with the particular > pitch palette, any more than being a good painter has to do with your > precise color space.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf@...>

>
>
>
> kylegann1955 wrote:
> <mailto:kgann@...?Subject=Re:%20Ligeti%20as%20Microtonal%20Innovator>
> <http://profiles.yahoo.com/kylegann1955>
>
> This statement that Ethan Iverson quotes by Ligeti, talking about his
> Hamburg Concerto of
> 2002, strikes me as totally implausible:
>
> "In the small orchestra there are four natural horns, each of which
> can produce the 2nd to
> the 16th overtone. By providing each horn or group of horns with
> different fundamentals I
> was able to construct novel sound spectra from the resulting
> overtones. These harmonies,
> which have never been used before, sound 'weird' in relation to
> harmonic
> spectra."
>
> Excuse me? Chords within the first 16 harmonics that, in 2002, had
> "never been used
> before"?
>

Well, Ligeti did not get out much either.

But seriously, LG kept his ears out and was well aware of everything
from Partch to the French quarter-tone mapping spectralists. Some of
his students, Wolfgang von Schweinitz for example, actively use harmonic
series and microtonal materials in their pieces. Although he seems to
be refreshingly candid about his autobiography, I find that anything
that LG says his music in relationship to that of his contemporaries has
to be taken with some salt. He was not a modest person, and his
estimation of his contemporaries, while often brutally honest, could be
selective. (One of the most painful moments in my life was watching him
try to share a stage with Conlon Nancarrow for an intermission "chat" in
Cologne. He was so full of himself, and Mr. Nancarrow was so modest,
that with each of the many words that LG uttered, and each of the few
that Mr. Nancarrow made, the audience quickly came to understand that LG
was simply incapable of holding forth on anything but himself. Score:
Nancarrow 10, Ligeti 0.)

In any case, I think that it is simply worth noting that LG, a
significant public figure in the new music community, used alternative
tunings, and if as a result of his Hamburg Concerto (which is not to
mention the greater influence of historically-informed performance
practice), more orchestras will entertain the notion of playing with
natural and handhorns, they bully for LG, better for us. I wrote a
horn-violin-piano trio in '83 that stood unplayed for a long time,
because the piece required a handhorn and a piano in meantone. Nowadays,
asking for a handhorn is no big deal. Bully.

DJW

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗hstraub64 <hstraub64@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "kylegann1955" <kgann@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, gang,
>
> This statement that Ethan Iverson quotes by Ligeti, talking about
> his Hamburg Concerto of 2002, strikes me as totally implausible:
>
> "In the small orchestra there are four natural horns, each of which
> can produce the 2nd to the 16th overtone. By providing each horn or
> group of horns with different fundamentals I was able to construct
> novel sound spectra from the resulting overtones. These harmonies,
> which have never been used before, sound 'weird' in relation
> to harmonic
> spectra."
>
> Excuse me? Chords within the first 16 harmonics that, in 2002, had
> "never been used before"?
>

I understand: Chords within the first 16 harmonics with different
fundamentals. That would be plausible, or not?
--
Hans Straub

🔗kylegann1955 <kgann@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "hstraub64" <hstraub64@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "kylegann1955" <kgann@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello, gang,
> >
> > This statement that Ethan Iverson quotes by Ligeti, talking about
> > his Hamburg Concerto of 2002, strikes me as totally implausible:
> >
> > "In the small orchestra there are four natural horns, each of which
> > can produce the 2nd to the 16th overtone. By providing each horn or
> > group of horns with different fundamentals I was able to construct
> > novel sound spectra from the resulting overtones. These harmonies,
> > which have never been used before, sound 'weird' in relation
> > to harmonic
> > spectra."
> >
> > Excuse me? Chords within the first 16 harmonics that, in 2002, had
> > "never been used before"?
> >
>
> I understand: Chords within the first 16 harmonics with different
> fundamentals. That would be plausible, or not?
> --
> Hans Straub
>

Yeah, I hadn't taken into account that the fundamentals might be 12tet-related. That
might indeed lead some some unusual sonorities.

Thanks,

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

conical bores do not produce the harmonics

kylegann1955 wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "hstraub64" <hstraub64@...> wrote:
> >> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "kylegann1955" <kgann@> wrote:
>> >>> Hello, gang,
>>>
>>> This statement that Ethan Iverson quotes by Ligeti, talking about >>> his Hamburg Concerto of 2002, strikes me as totally implausible:
>>>
>>> "In the small orchestra there are four natural horns, each of which >>> can produce the 2nd to the 16th overtone. By providing each horn or >>> group of horns with different fundamentals I was able to construct >>> novel sound spectra from the resulting overtones. These harmonies, >>> which have never been used before, sound 'weird' in relation
>>> to harmonic >>> spectra."
>>>
>>> Excuse me? Chords within the first 16 harmonics that, in 2002, had >>> "never been used before"?
>>>
>>> >> I understand: Chords within the first 16 harmonics with different
>> fundamentals. That would be plausible, or not?
>> -- >> Hans Straub
>>
>> >
> Yeah, I hadn't taken into account that the fundamentals might be 12tet-related. That > might indeed lead some some unusual sonorities.
>
> Thanks,
>
> KG
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗kylegann1955 <kgann@...>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

that is very funny

kylegann1955 wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> >> conical bores do not produce the harmonics
>>
>> >
> *I* produce harmonics, and there are people who consider me a conical bore.
>
> KG
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf@...>

> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@
> ...> wrote:
> >
> >> conical bores do not produce the harmonics

Kraig -- I think you may have misunderstood something. The resonant
frequencies of a conical bore are indeed, not harmonic, but that is not
the same as either the series of vibrating modes produced by buzzing
lips in all brass instruments, or to the harmonic content of a single
tone produced by a brass instrument, both of which are regular
integer-multiple, harmonic series. In fact, in traditional tonal
repertoire, in whatever temperament is involved, players have to adjust
away from the harmonic series vibrating modes, either directly with the
buzzing or (in the horn) through the use of a hand in the bell (with
proper handhorn technique, a player can produce a chromatic scale), or
-- in both natural horn and natural trumpet -- through discrete use of
one or more small "cheating" holes drilled into the the tube. The
resonant frequencies of the bore which you alluded to are important
instead to the timbre of the instrument, creating the characteristic
formants with which we so readily distinguish a horn from a trumpet or a
trombone.

Roederer's book gives a quick introduction to this, Benade has more detail.

DJW

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Bruce Fowler pointed out to me how the harmonics on the trombone did not coincide with the integer series and when he played along with an instrument i had that had such an animal he had to adjust with his slide.
just the other night i saw Tom Heasley playing the tuba and he too would adjust with his slide to reproduce this series. and had the same discussion about how the bore does indeed warp the series.
Daniel Wolf wrote:
>>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com >>> >> <mailto:MakeMicroMusic%40yahoogroups.com>, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@
>> ...> wrote:
>> >>>> conical bores do not produce the harmonics
>>>> >
> Kraig -- I think you may have misunderstood something. The resonant > frequencies of a conical bore are indeed, not harmonic, but that is not > the same as either the series of vibrating modes produced by buzzing > lips in all brass instruments, or to the harmonic content of a single > tone produced by a brass instrument, both of which are regular > integer-multiple, harmonic series. In fact, in traditional tonal > repertoire, in whatever temperament is involved, players have to adjust > away from the harmonic series vibrating modes, either directly with the > buzzing or (in the horn) through the use of a hand in the bell (with > proper handhorn technique, a player can produce a chromatic scale), or > -- in both natural horn and natural trumpet -- through discrete use of > one or more small "cheating" holes drilled into the the tube. The > resonant frequencies of the bore which you alluded to are important > instead to the timbre of the instrument, creating the characteristic > formants with which we so readily distinguish a horn from a trumpet or a > trombone.
>
> Roederer's book gives a quick introduction to this, Benade has more detail.
>
> DJW
>
>
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@...>

On 6/16/06, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> Bruce Fowler pointed out to me how the harmonics on the trombone did not
> coincide with the integer series and when he played along with an
> instrument i had that had such an animal he had to adjust with his slide.
> just the other night i saw Tom Heasley playing the tuba and he too
> would adjust with his slide to reproduce this series. and had the same
> discussion about how the bore does indeed warp the series.

It depends a lot on the mouthpiece too. Once when I switched
mouthpieces all the upper partials seemed to go the opposite
direction.

Keenan

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

alongs these lines
one time i tried to make a tuned set of dideredoos
out of PVC. cut to the proper resonator lengths
sometimes between players there would be a differenace of a major 2nd,
not matter what we did

Keenan Pepper wrote:
> On 6/16/06, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> >> Bruce Fowler pointed out to me how the harmonics on the trombone did not
>> coincide with the integer series and when he played along with an
>> instrument i had that had such an animal he had to adjust with his slide.
>> just the other night i saw Tom Heasley playing the tuba and he too
>> would adjust with his slide to reproduce this series. and had the same
>> discussion about how the bore does indeed warp the series.
>> >
> It depends a lot on the mouthpiece too. Once when I switched
> mouthpieces all the upper partials seemed to go the opposite
> direction.
>
> Keenan
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

style is a great word for the intangible quality

c.m.bryan wrote:
>> alongs these lines
>> one time i tried to make a tuned set of dideredoos
>> out of PVC. cut to the proper resonator lengths
>> sometimes between players there would be a differenace of a major 2nd,
>> not matter what we did
>> >
> Yes, I think that has to do with the style of the player.
>
> -chris
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗yahya_melb <yahya@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
>
> that is very funny
>
> kylegann1955 wrote:
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@>
wrote:
> >
> >> conical bores do not produce the harmonics
> >>
> >
> > *I* produce harmonics, and there are people who consider me a
conical bore.
> >
> > KG
> >

KG, KG,

Extremely conical IMO ...

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>> Bruce Fowler pointed out to me how the harmonics on the trombone did not
>> coincide with the integer series and when he played along with an
>> instrument i had that had such an animal he had to adjust with his slide.
>> just the other night i saw Tom Heasley playing the tuba and he too
>> would adjust with his slide to reproduce this series. and had the same
>> discussion about how the bore does indeed warp the series.
>
>It depends a lot on the mouthpiece too. Once when I switched
>mouthpieces all the upper partials seemed to go the opposite
>direction.
>
>Keenan

The length, taper, and bore of mouthpiece shanks is not standardized.

-Carl

PS- What do you play?

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i remember him for when he shared a house with erv

Carl Lumma wrote:
> At 05:07 PM 6/14/2006, you wrote:
> >> the people you mention are more factory heads than individuals,
>> and copying others doesn't count
>> >
> I don't think Elfman is a factory head. He plays in a rock
> band, and did all the music for Chocolate Factory in his
> home studio, including the vocals (IIRC).
>
> -Carl
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

Wha!!!!!!!??? Do tell all, please.

-Carl

At 10:16 PM 6/21/2006, you wrote:
>i remember him for when he shared a house with erv
>
>Carl Lumma wrote:
>> At 05:07 PM 6/14/2006, you wrote:
>>
>>> the people you mention are more factory heads than individuals,
>>> and copying others doesn't count
>>>
>>
>> I don't think Elfman is a factory head. He plays in a rock
>> band, and did all the music for Chocolate Factory in his
>> home studio, including the vocals (IIRC).
>>
>> -Carl

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

see http://anaphoria.com/wilsonintro.html

Carl Lumma wrote:
> Wha!!!!!!!??? Do tell all, please.
>
> -Carl
>
> At 10:16 PM 6/21/2006, you wrote:
> >> i remember him for when he shared a house with erv
>>
>> Carl Lumma wrote:
>> >>> At 05:07 PM 6/14/2006, you wrote:
>>> >>> >>>> the people you mention are more factory heads than individuals,
>>>> and copying others doesn't count
>>>> >>>> >>> I don't think Elfman is a factory head. He plays in a rock
>>> band, and did all the music for Chocolate Factory in his
>>> home studio, including the vocals (IIRC).
>>>
>>> -Carl
>>> >
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

Wow Kraig, that is truly fantastic! I'm going to add it to
Erv's Wikipedia bio, if that's OK. Everyone on this list should
read this.

-Carl

> see http://anaphoria.com/wilsonintro.html
>
>> Wha!!!!!!!??? Do tell all, please.
>>
>>> i remember him for when he shared a house with erv
>>>
>>>> I don't think Elfman is a factory head. He plays in a rock
>>>> band, and did all the music for Chocolate Factory in his
>>>> home studio, including the vocals (IIRC).

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Kraig,

{you wrote...}
>i remember him for when he shared a house with erv

Wasn't that where Todd Manly lived, too? Along with Herve? My good friend Randy, ex-Bowls player in the Partch Ensemble, used to hang out at that place. Remembers Herve had a vegetable garden in the back...

Cheers,
Jon

(thank goodness for Erv bringing microtonality to this topic!)

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

yes that was the place, on normandie near second.
percussionist David Rosenthal who did allot of work with Dean Drummond and later Chas Smith lived next store

Jon Szanto wrote:
> Kraig,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >> i remember him for when he shared a house with erv
>> >
> Wasn't that where Todd Manly lived, too? Along with Herve? My good friend Randy, ex-Bowls player in the Partch Ensemble, used to hang out at that place. Remembers Herve had a vegetable garden in the back...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
> (thank goodness for Erv bringing microtonality to this topic!) >
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles