Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic composing basics

Is there a site that explains composing
in 12 EDO at the most basic level?

(If I could compose in 12 I could compose
in 24.)

I just need to know the basics (hopefully
without the Roman numerals).

I just don't know what chords I should use
if I have the melody line below:

C C E G E D C

The first 2 notes are C. Should I use the C
major triad root position there. Or 1st
inversion or 2nd?

What difference would it make? etc. etc.

Basic rules and info for now.

So if anyone knows a site that would be great.

-Stephen

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

maybe not much help. but the answer is any chord you like, if you even want to use chords.
find what pleases you.
that is the predicament we find all of us in

stephenszpak wrote:
> > I just don't know what chords I should use
> if I have the melody line below:
> > C C E G E D C
>
> The first 2 notes are C. Should I use the C
> major triad root position there. Or 1st
> inversion or 2nd? >
> What difference would it make? etc. etc.
>
> Basic rules and info for now.
>
> So if anyone knows a site that would be great.
>
> -Stephen
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:

Kraig

Thanks.

1) Aren't some chords just bad for the first two notes?
(ie. the C and the C)

F#minor? etc.

2) If I use C major for the first two notes, isn't there
some rule about using the root position, or first
inversion, or second?

-Stephen

>
> maybe not much help. but the answer is any chord you like, if you
even
> want to use chords.
> find what pleases you.
> that is the predicament we find all of us in
>
> stephenszpak wrote:
> >
> > I just don't know what chords I should use
> > if I have the melody line below:
> >
> > C C E G E D C
> >
> > The first 2 notes are C. Should I use the C
> > major triad root position there. Or 1st
> > inversion or 2nd?
> >
> > What difference would it make? etc. etc.
> >
> > Basic rules and info for now.
> >
> > So if anyone knows a site that would be great.
> >
> > -Stephen
> >

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper"
<keenanpepper@...> wrote:

Keenan

Thanks. Don't probabilites favor certain chords?

-Stephen

>
> On 6/10/06, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> > maybe not much help. but the answer is any chord you like, if
you even
> > want to use chords.
> > find what pleases you.
> > that is the predicament we find all of us in
>
> Exactly. If it were only a matter of applying the right rules, a
> computer could do it, and human composers would be out of a job.
>
> Keenan
>

🔗Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@...>

On 6/10/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> 1) Aren't some chords just bad for the first two notes?
> (ie. the C and the C)
>
> F#minor? etc.

That would certainly be more dissonant, but dissonant != bad.

> 2) If I use C major for the first two notes, isn't there
> some rule about using the root position, or first
> inversion, or second?

Who says? In "common practice" (i.e. the music of dead white
Europeans) it's important for the last chord to be in root position,
but I don't know of any rule about the first chord.

Keenan

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper"
<keenanpepper@...> wrote:

Keenan

OK.

-Stephen

>
> On 6/10/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> > 1) Aren't some chords just bad for the first two notes?
> > (ie. the C and the C)
> >
> > F#minor? etc.
>
> That would certainly be more dissonant, but dissonant != bad.
>
> > 2) If I use C major for the first two notes, isn't there
> > some rule about using the root position, or first
> > inversion, or second?
>
> Who says? In "common practice" (i.e. the music of dead white
> Europeans) it's important for the last chord to be in root
position,
> but I don't know of any rule about the first chord.
>
> Keenan
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@...> wrote:

> Is there a site that explains composing
> in 12 EDO at the most basic level?

There would almost have to be, it seems to me--probably many.

> I just don't know what chords I should use
> if I have the melody line below:
>
> C C E G E D C
>
> The first 2 notes are C. Should I use the C
> major triad root position there. Or 1st
> inversion or 2nd?

People are totally blowing you off, so I guess I'll take a stab at it.
If you harmonize CCEG with a tonic triad in root position, you start
out by beginning to establish a tonic, and the root position adds to
the stability of the chord. This would be a very usual way to began
things. You then have EDC; the D could go with a G major chord, which
then moves to C, which would further serve to establish tonality. The
E links C and G, and if you stick an e minor chord between the C and G
it would certainly be very natural. So, one way to do it, hardly the
only way, would be C-major e-minor G-major C-major. That chord
progression would serve to establish some sense that you were in the
key of C major. It also, by the way, doesn't require you to be in
12-et: you can do all of the above very nicely in just intonation.

By the way, I'm not convinced that starting from 12 is going to make
24 all that easy. 12 is actually more naturally allied to 19, 31, or
even 22 notes to the octave in some respects. Of course you can always
treat 24 as two 12s living on parallel tracks. What is your particular
interest in 24edo? It's asscociated to Maqam music, is that a factor?

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
Gene

Thanks for replying.

I will read your response again. I think it
makes sense though.

I play in my scale:

Steven Szpak's scale, TL 2-1-2004
0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime
1: 60.880 cents 60.880
2: 100.000 cents 100.000
3: 160.880 cents 160.880
4: 200.000 cents 200.000
5: 260.880 cents 260.880
6: 300.000 cents 300.000
7: 360.880 cents 360.880
8: 400.000 cents 400.000
9: 460.880 cents 460.880
10: 500.000 cents 500.000
11: 560.880 cents 560.880
12: 600.000 cents 600.000
13: 660.880 cents 660.880
14: 700.000 cents 700.000
15: 760.880 cents 760.880
16: 800.000 cents 800.000
17: 860.880 cents 860.880
18: 900.000 cents 900.000
19: 960.880 cents 960.880
20: 1000.000 cents 1000.000
21: 1060.880 cents 1060.880
22: 1100.000 cents 1100.000
23: 1160.880 cents 1160.880
24: 2/1 1200.000 octave

I realize it is very close to 24 EDO. The 7th
and 11 harmonics are both <10 cents off. That's
why (some other rations OK too) I came up with it.
Also it expands on 12 EDO (without trashing it).

"It's asscociated to Maqam music" , never heard of
it to my knowledge.

Since you're here. Do you know off-hand what 15 EDO
is called in Scala. I don't see it.

-Stephen
_______________________________________________________________

> By the way, I'm not convinced that starting from 12 is going to
make
> 24 all that easy. 12 is actually more naturally allied to 19, 31,
or
> even 22 notes to the octave in some respects. Of course you can
always
> treat 24 as two 12s living on parallel tracks. What is your
particular
> interest in 24edo? It's asscociated to Maqam music, is that a
factor?
>

🔗Jacob <jbarton@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jacob" <jbarton@...> wrote:
>
Jacob

Thanks. I will try that now.

Hey, if it sounds nice post it someday if you have time.

-Stephen

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> <stephen_szpak@> wrote:
> > Since you're here. Do you know off-hand what 15 EDO
> > is called in Scala. I don't see it.
>
> To get Scala to do 15 EDO, type this:
>
> equal 15
>
> There's no file in the archive for it because it's that easy to make.
>
> Funny that you mention greensleeves, just the other night I was
> playing it in 12 out of 16 EDO and boy was it neo-medieval.
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Daniel Wolf <djwolf@...>

>
>
>
> Re: composing basics
> <http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTJyY3RyNThmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzM2NjA0NjUEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNjAwMDIzODY1BG1zZ0lkAzEzNTk4BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzExNDk5ODgxNTg-;_ylg=1/SIG=11vr5fdhh/**http%3a//groups.yahoo.com/group/makemicromusic/message/13598>
>
>
>
> Posted by: "Dante Rosati" dante@...
> <mailto:dante@...?Subject=%20Re:%20composing%20basics>
> danterosati <http://profiles.yahoo.com/danterosati>
>
>
> Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:24 pm (PST)
>
> wasn't it in Antheil's book that any chord may be followed by any other
> chord given the right amount of time between them.

That was actually Ezra Pound's theory of harmony, which you might know
from a little book by Pound called "George Antheil and The Theory of
Harmony".

DJW

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

🔗c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>

Jumping into the fray...

> Is there a site that explains composing
> in 12 EDO at the most basic level?
>
> (If I could compose in 12 I could compose
> in 24.)

This is true in the sense that music in any tuning shares the same
goals of sustaining interest, movement, balance, focus, etc. So,
composing in a meantone temperament (i.e. 12et or something from the
1/3, 1/4, 1/6-comma family) would allow you to use traditional
classical or pop idioms to realize the above goals, before moving on
to more experimental tunings.

Websites can give you rules, but it won't help you compose I'm afraid.
In other words, it is very easy to write music that is "correct," but
utterly boring (anyone who has studied music theory knows this
first-hand from writing crap-loads of exercises... :-P). However, if
you want to write music in a certain style, knowing the guidelines of
that style are useful.

> I just don't know what chords I should use
> if I have the melody line below:
>
> C C E G E D C

If the meter is in 4 (so C C E G is the first measure), try the whole
bit with a C chord.

If the meter is is 3 (so that the G falls on a down beat), then try C
G C (one chord per bar).

> The first 2 notes are C. Should I use the C
> major triad root position there. Or 1st
> inversion or 2nd?
>
> What difference would it make? etc. etc.

In common practice, root position is the most stable, 1st inversion is
less stable but still pleasing, and 2nd inversion is unstable.
Choosing the voicing often has a lot to do with creating a nice bass
line (try the chords G D/F# Em and you'll see why the middle chord
is in 1st inversion).

In pop music (esp. with guitar) almost everything is root or 1st inversion.

> So if anyone knows a site that would be great.

I don't know of a site.

However, I am looking to start giving web-based music instruction in
composition and/or electronic music. Composition can mean concert
music or songwriting or anything else, really. If you're interested,
send me an e-mail off-list.

-chris

🔗yahya_melb <yahya@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> <stephen_szpak@> wrote:
>
> > Is there a site that explains composing
> > in 12 EDO at the most basic level?
>
> There would almost have to be, it seems to me--probably many.
>
> > I just don't know what chords I should use
> > if I have the melody line below:
> >
> > C C E G E D C
> >
> > The first 2 notes are C. Should I use the C
> > major triad root position there. Or 1st
> > inversion or 2nd?
>
> People are totally blowing you off, so I guess I'll take
> a stab at it.
> If you harmonize CCEG with a tonic triad in root position,
> you start out by beginning to establish a tonic, and the
> root position adds to the stability of the chord. This
> would be a very usual way to began things. You then have
> EDC; the D could go with a G major chord, which then moves
> to C, which would further serve to establish tonality. The
> E links C and G, and if you stick an e minor chord between
> the C and G it would certainly be very natural. So, one
> way to do it, hardly the only way, would be C-major e-minor
> G-major C-major. That chord progression would serve to
> establish some sense that you were in the key of C major.
> It also, by the way, doesn't require you to be in 12-et:
> you can do all of the above very nicely in just intonation.

Hi Stephen,

Surely this is useful advice. May I add - trust
your ear.

Another way of thinking about this is that you
don't have to care what names the chords have,
if the sounds they make suit your purpose. So
you could -

a) play any chord that seems to fit against each
note (usually ones that contain it), or even

b) not bother finding chords, just find good
melodies to match your original one. Essentially,
this's just adding one note at a time that sounds
right with what you already have. This way, you
may or may not produce recognisable chords, but
you will produce sounds you want. I'm (radically)
talking about "part-writing" here, or "counter-
point".

Example of part-writing:

To the following (alto) phrase, played slowly:
C C | E G | E D | C :
you might add these (bass) notes below:
C A | G F | G F | E F#
then you might add a (tenor) part around the bass:
G F | B B | Bb Bb | A :
You now have three part harmony, built in stages.
Quite painless, but possibly tedious. It's cer-
tainly not a "get-rich-quick guitar method", but!

Then if you're still not satisfied, you might add
a soprano part above all that, and give her some-
thing bright and busy to do to ornament it all.
Perhaps like this:

E-D C-B | C G-F-D | C F-D-Bb | D .-C

I'll post a tiny MIDI file of this, called
"Cantus Firmus in Alto", to our files section,
in case you want to listen to how this builds
up from your single phrase to four-part harmony.

In terms of learning "composition", I doubt that
anything else has been as useful to me as learning
to write parts - slowly and carefully. You may
find this a useful approach.

Regards,
Yahya

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "J.Smith" <jsmith9624@...>
wrote:
> J. Smith

Your reply was both thoughtful and correct.

-Stephen

________________________________________________________________
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
> <stephen_szpak@> wrote:
> >
> > > To get Scala to do 15 EDO, type this:
> > >
> > > equal 15
> >
> > Haven't given up, but it doesn't work.
> >
> > -Stephen
>
>
> In the blank field at the bottom of the Scala GUI, type in "equal
15",
> then hit ENTER; then at the top toolbar, click SHOW...15-edo
should
> then appear on the screen.
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗yahya_melb <yahya@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "yahya_melb" <yahya@...>
wrote:
[snip]
> Example of part-writing:
>
> To the following (alto) phrase, played slowly:
> C C | E G | E D | C :
> you might add these (bass) notes below:
> C A | G F | G F | E F#
> then you might add a (tenor) part around the bass:
> G F | B B | Bb Bb | A :
> You now have three part harmony, built in stages.
> Quite painless, but possibly tedious. It's cer-
> tainly not a "get-rich-quick guitar method", but!
>
> Then if you're still not satisfied, you might add
> a soprano part above all that, and give her some-
> thing bright and busy to do to ornament it all.
> Perhaps like this:
>
> E-D C-B | C G-F-D | C F-D-Bb | D .-C
>
> I'll post a tiny MIDI file of this, called
> "Cantus Firmus in Alto", to our files section,
> in case you want to listen to how this builds
> up from your single phrase to four-part harmony.

Hi Stephen,

I'm *replacing* that file with a justly tuned
version, cos it sounds better. ;-) There's also
a text file explaining the tuning, and how I
implemented that in NoteWorthy Composer.

Regards,
Yahya