Making (micro or any other) music

Boy, here's a great quote I just saw by guitar whiz Frank Vignola. When asked about his experience playing with Les Paul, he said: "Les has a tremendous sense of how to play a melody to an audience. I can't define it in musical terms, but he can express things like humor, romance, and sarcasm with his playing. Essentially, he speaks to them through his guitar. It's beyond jazz, beyond theory, and beyond stylistic boundaries. It's pure communication through music."

And that's all done with an instrument tuned in 12 eq...Hstick

myspace.com/microstick microstick.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry, I don't mean to be critical (and this might be wandering
off-topic), but I think any experience of "pure communication through
music" that is "beyond stylistic boundaries" is a complete illusion.
It's not possible to communicate through music without stylistic
boundaries any more than it would be possible to communicate without
language. Even without vocabulary and grammer, the inflections of
tone and gestures are all part of a shared communicative language.
All good music works through stylistic boundaries, however dynamic and
fluid, or else nothing can be communicated, by definition!

My only reason for commenting is that it bothers me when (some) people
argue or imply that music is a completely intuitive thing that arises
from some muse that inspires the individual artist... that if Muddy
Waters lived alone on a desert island, he would still play the blues!
Music is learned, just like language or anything else, and it depends
upon the artist working within (or developing, or reacting against)
inherited stylistic boundaries.

It's probably true that in good music, those stylistic boundaries
become transparent and create that ellusive feeling of complete
intuitiveness, but it is only an illusion; whether consciously or
subconsciously, stylistic language remains the integral foundation of
musical communication.

All this does have relevance for microtonal musicians, because tuning
is a large part of that stylistic framework. If you want to
communicate through your music, then you'd better find a way to help
your listeners understand at least a little bit of your "tuning
language," or else communicate strongly through more familiar means,
such as rhythm and instrumentation, or else your audience won't
understand what you're communicating! In such situations, audiences
are left unfulfilled, and musicians are left scratching their heads,
wondering why the audience didn't understand them. The simple answer
is that they weren't speaking the same language, and no one bothered
to translate :)

I apologize for the rant.

On a positive note, being "beyond theory" is absolutely essential.
Theory is merely description and observation, so music is beyond
theory in the same way that an event is beyond someone's recounting of
it. Music is an experiential Reality; and like all Reality, it is
ultimately "uncapturable" by any theory... it simply IS :)

-chris

On 5/21/06, microstick@... <microstick@...> wrote:
> Boy, here's a great quote I just saw by guitar whiz Frank Vignola. When asked about his experience playing with Les Paul, he said: "Les has a tremendous sense of how to play a melody to an audience. I can't define it in musical terms, but he can express things like humor, romance, and sarcasm with his playing. Essentially, he speaks to them through his guitar. It's beyond jazz, beyond theory, and beyond stylistic boundaries. It's pure communication through music."
>
> And that's all done with an instrument tuned in 12 eq...Hstick
>
> myspace.com/microstick microstick.net
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Even within a single culture, it appears that the same music will communicate different things to different people.
for instance my daughter finds Mozart often angry and every since she said that it makes perfect sense.
He can be quite aggressive and quite restless .
audiences are fiction though, what they understand today can be different that tomorrow.
In fact it appears that audiences understood allot more at other times.
audience for the most part can't understand anything but porn
and even that doesn't rise them from the dead

One thing that also is interesting in this regard is that music from different cultures
can be enjoyed outside of their original context.
It s all a matter of familiarity.
whether we understand it in the same way as those cultures , i doubt, but it is still enjoyable.
On the other hand , we are more than a bunch of behaviorist reactionary robots.
It seems no matter how long people persist in trying to convey certain styles
they just don't catch on.
Serialism is a good example, over a half century and the culture has not found a place for it,
except in horror films maybe.
On the other hand those experiments in molding sound have found a bigger audience
although personally i find the range of expression ( as most of the music that attem,pts to shine on pitch per se) limited
c.m.bryan wrote:
> Sorry, I don't mean to be critical (and this might be wandering
> off-topic), but I think any experience of "pure communication through
> music" that is "beyond stylistic boundaries" is a complete illusion.
> It's not possible to communicate through music without stylistic
> boundaries any more than it would be possible to communicate without
> language. Even without vocabulary and grammer, the inflections of
> tone and gestures are all part of a shared communicative language.
> All good music works through stylistic boundaries, however dynamic and
> fluid, or else nothing can be communicated, by definition!
>
> My only reason for commenting is that it bothers me when (some) people
> argue or imply that music is a completely intuitive thing that arises
> from some muse that inspires the individual artist... that if Muddy
> Waters lived alone on a desert island, he would still play the blues!
> Music is learned, just like language or anything else, and it depends
> upon the artist working within (or developing, or reacting against)
> inherited stylistic boundaries.
>
> It's probably true that in good music, those stylistic boundaries
> become transparent and create that ellusive feeling of complete
> intuitiveness, but it is only an illusion; whether consciously or
> subconsciously, stylistic language remains the integral foundation of
> musical communication.
>
> All this does have relevance for microtonal musicians, because tuning
> is a large part of that stylistic framework. If you want to
> communicate through your music, then you'd better find a way to help
> your listeners understand at least a little bit of your "tuning
> language," or else communicate strongly through more familiar means,
> such as rhythm and instrumentation, or else your audience won't
> understand what you're communicating! In such situations, audiences
> are left unfulfilled, and musicians are left scratching their heads,
> wondering why the audience didn't understand them. The simple answer
> is that they weren't speaking the same language, and no one bothered
> to translate :)
>
> I apologize for the rant.
>
> On a positive note, being "beyond theory" is absolutely essential.
> Theory is merely description and observation, so music is beyond
> theory in the same way that an event is beyond someone's recounting of
> it. Music is an experiential Reality; and like all Reality, it is
> ultimately "uncapturable" by any theory... it simply IS :)
>
> -chris
>
>
>
> On 5/21/06, microstick@... <microstick@...> wrote:
> >> Boy, here's a great quote I just saw by guitar whiz Frank Vignola. When asked about his experience playing with Les Paul, he said: "Les has a tremendous sense of how to play a melody to an audience. I can't define it in musical terms, but he can express things like humor, romance, and sarcasm with his playing. Essentially, he speaks to them through his guitar. It's beyond jazz, beyond theory, and beyond stylistic boundaries. It's pure communication through music."
>>
>> And that's all done with an instrument tuned in 12 eq...Hstick
>>
>> myspace.com/microstick microstick.net
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry, I don't mean to be critical (and this might be wandering
> off-topic), but I think any experience of "pure communication
through music" that is "beyond stylistic boundaries" is a complete
illusion.
> It's not possible to communicate through music without stylistic
> boundaries any more than it would be possible to communicate without
> language. Even without vocabulary and grammer, the inflections of
> tone and gestures are all part of a shared communicative language.
> All good music works through stylistic boundaries, however dynamic
and fluid, or else nothing can be communicated, by definition!

I've stuck with this for a year (from cybernetics dictionary):

anticommunication - a human relation between persons and things which
emerges and is maintained through messages requiring and permitting
not yet available encoding and decoding systems or mechanisms.
communication is a human relation between persons and things which
emerges and is maintained through messages required and permitted by
already available encoding and decoding systems or mechanisms.
Communication feeds on an speeds the decay of information in systems
on which depends the significance of human relations.
Anticommunication not only retards this decay, but even creates
systems whose significance depends on human relations. Insistence on
communication ultimately leads to social and physical violence.
Anticommunication ultimately leads to insistence on composition and
peace. (Herbert Brun)

> I've stuck with this for a year (from cybernetics dictionary):
>
> anticommunication - a human relation between persons and things which
> emerges and is maintained through messages requiring and permitting
> not yet available encoding and decoding systems or mechanisms.
> communication is a human relation between persons and things which
> emerges and is maintained through messages required and permitted by
> already available encoding and decoding systems or mechanisms.
> Communication feeds on an speeds the decay of information in systems
> on which depends the significance of human relations.
> Anticommunication not only retards this decay, but even creates
> systems whose significance depends on human relations. Insistence on
> communication ultimately leads to social and physical violence.
> Anticommunication ultimately leads to insistence on composition and
> peace. (Herbert Brun)

I'm not sure I follow... but, in my understanding, relationship
depends on communication, because communication is required in order
to even be aware of the existence of the Other. Anticommunication,
then, is the equivalent of isolation, which may be some kind of peace,
but only the peace of a complete vacuum...

(I know, OT, I'm shutting up now...)

-chris

i have in the last year done some pieces based on the encryption.
the idea burying the intent as music as much as possible.
a paranoid and egoless method of producing what chance might
but more in keeping with the present political system.
In opposed to that damn smiling (manic, what hillman refers to as the untimate psychosis of of age) face of a cage

c.m.bryan wrote:
>> I've stuck with this for a year (from cybernetics dictionary):
>>
>> anticommunication - a human relation between persons and things which
>> emerges and is maintained through messages requiring and permitting
>> not yet available encoding and decoding systems or mechanisms.
>> communication is a human relation between persons and things which
>> emerges and is maintained through messages required and permitted by
>> already available encoding and decoding systems or mechanisms.
>> Communication feeds on an speeds the decay of information in systems
>> on which depends the significance of human relations.
>> Anticommunication not only retards this decay, but even creates
>> systems whose significance depends on human relations. Insistence on
>> communication ultimately leads to social and physical violence.
>> Anticommunication ultimately leads to insistence on composition and
>> peace. (Herbert Brun)
>> >
>
> I'm not sure I follow... but, in my understanding, relationship
> depends on communication, because communication is required in order
> to even be aware of the existence of the Other. Anticommunication,
> then, is the equivalent of isolation, which may be some kind of peace,
> but only the peace of a complete vacuum...
>
> (I know, OT, I'm shutting up now...)
>
> -chris
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On Thursday 25 May 2006 2:19 pm, Kraig Grady wrote:
> i have in the last year done some pieces based on the encryption.
> the idea burying the intent as music as much as possible.
> a paranoid and egoless method of producing what chance might
> but more in keeping with the present political system.
> In opposed to that damn smiling (manic, what hillman refers to as the
> untimate psychosis of of age) face of a cage

This is intriguing, Kraig.

Can you give an example of this techniue in practice?

-Aaron.

HA!
well i gave you the method, one could crack the code!:)
but for instance a very primitive method , morse code for rhythms, and one can change these proportions of long and shorts.
messages hidden in the rest. etc.
it is interesting that the first binary code was by Pingala, the person who gave us the earliest example of Mt.
Meru as Pascals Triangle. the key/code to most of Erv's work.

Another example might be Gene taking someones midi file and putting the piece in another tuning, or what ever it is he has up his sleeve
The whole idea started as a joke but i like the idea and have enjoyed playing with it.
even though one is not supposed to be smiling while doing it.

Is Margo hiding 21 century ideas in a 12th century language?
Maybe we can get Kyle to write us up , as a whole movement
Encryptionism.

It has potential for the audience cause then they could go to performances and imagine what it is the composer is trying not to say.
a return to the recognition of 'intangible ' qualities in music.
I won't tell you if i have something to say or not, and i am or not saying it

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> On Thursday 25 May 2006 2:19 pm, Kraig Grady wrote:
> >> i have in the last year done some pieces based on the encryption.
>> the idea burying the intent as music as much as possible.
>> a paranoid and egoless method of producing what chance might
>> but more in keeping with the present political system.
>> In opposed to that damn smiling (manic, what hillman refers to as the
>> untimate psychosis of of age) face of a cage
>> >
> This is intriguing, Kraig.
>
> Can you give an example of this techniue in practice?
>
> -Aaron.
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

KG,

{you wrote...}
>I won't tell you if i have something to say or not, and i am or not saying it

John Cage would be smiling at that!

Cheers,
Jon

A 19th century example of 'encrytionism' was Schumann, who wrote little love
letters to Clara and hommages to other composers by mapping letters to
pitches, and making motifs out of them.

Then there was Messien in the 20th, who had a chromatic alpahbet. Of course
his result is a bit gnarlier, not being diatonic.

And who among us haven't fooled around with algorithmic composition (fractal,
recursive, or chaotic, etc.) I have used all these techniques and more...but
never tried to hide messages---I just might try it!

Hell, I'm killing righteous analog information greedily!
(can you find the hidden message above?)

-Aaron.

On Thursday 25 May 2006 6:09 pm, Kraig Grady wrote:
> HA!
> well i gave you the method, one could crack the code!:)
> but for instance a very primitive method , morse code for rhythms, and
> one can change these proportions of long and shorts.
> messages hidden in the rest. etc.
> it is interesting that the first binary code was by Pingala, the person
> who gave us the earliest example of Mt.
> Meru as Pascals Triangle. the key/code to most of Erv's work.
>
> Another example might be Gene taking someones midi file and putting the
> piece in another tuning, or what ever it is he has up his sleeve
> The whole idea started as a joke but i like the idea and have enjoyed
> playing with it.
> even though one is not supposed to be smiling while doing it.
>
> Is Margo hiding 21 century ideas in a 12th century language?
>
> Maybe we can get Kyle to write us up , as a whole movement
> Encryptionism.
>
> It has potential for the audience cause then they could go to
> performances and imagine what it is the composer is trying not to say.
> a return to the recognition of 'intangible ' qualities in music.
>
> I won't tell you if i have something to say or not, and i am or not
> saying it
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> > On Thursday 25 May 2006 2:19 pm, Kraig Grady wrote:
> >> i have in the last year done some pieces based on the encryption.
> >> the idea burying the intent as music as much as possible.
> >> a paranoid and egoless method of producing what chance might
> >> but more in keeping with the present political system.
> >> In opposed to that damn smiling (manic, what hillman refers to as the
> >> untimate psychosis of of age) face of a cage
> >
> > This is intriguing, Kraig.
> >
> > Can you give an example of this techniue in practice?
> >
> > -Aaron.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:

> Another example might be Gene taking someones midi file and putting
the
> piece in another tuning, or what ever it is he has up his sleeve

I haven't got anything up my sleeve because I haven't been able to get
the midi file.

Greetings,

I can't recall off hand which piece it is, but one of the scores of the Canadian composer R. Murray Schafer does exactly this.

All best wishes,

Gordon Rumson

On 25-May-06, at 12:09 PM, Kraig Grady wrote:

> HA!
> well i gave you the method, one could crack the code!:)
> but for instance a very primitive method , morse code for rhythms, and
> one can change these proportions of long and shorts.
> messages hidden in the rest. etc.

yes there is a whole history than can written about the idea,
kinda scary
Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
> A 19th century example of 'encrytionism' was Schumann, who wrote little love > letters to Clara and hommages to other composers by mapping letters to > pitches, and making motifs out of them.
>
> Then there was Messien in the 20th, who had a chromatic alpahbet. Of course > his result is a bit gnarlier, not being diatonic.
>
> And who among us haven't fooled around with algorithmic composition (fractal, > recursive, or chaotic, etc.) I have used all these techniques and more...but > never tried to hide messages---I just might try it!
>
> Hell, I'm killing righteous analog information greedily! > (can you find the hidden message above?)
>
> -Aaron.
>
>
> On Thursday 25 May 2006 6:09 pm, Kraig Grady wrote:
> >> HA!
>> well i gave you the method, one could crack the code!:)
>> but for instance a very primitive method , morse code for rhythms, and
>> one can change these proportions of long and shorts.
>> messages hidden in the rest. etc.
>> it is interesting that the first binary code was by Pingala, the person
>> who gave us the earliest example of Mt.
>> Meru as Pascals Triangle. the key/code to most of Erv's work.
>>
>> Another example might be Gene taking someones midi file and putting the
>> piece in another tuning, or what ever it is he has up his sleeve
>> The whole idea started as a joke but i like the idea and have enjoyed
>> playing with it.
>> even though one is not supposed to be smiling while doing it.
>>
>> Is Margo hiding 21 century ideas in a 12th century language?
>>
>> Maybe we can get Kyle to write us up , as a whole movement
>> Encryptionism.
>>
>> It has potential for the audience cause then they could go to
>> performances and imagine what it is the composer is trying not to say.
>> a return to the recognition of 'intangible ' qualities in music.
>>
>> I won't tell you if i have something to say or not, and i am or not
>> saying it
>>
>> Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
>> >>> On Thursday 25 May 2006 2:19 pm, Kraig Grady wrote:
>>> >>>> i have in the last year done some pieces based on the encryption.
>>>> the idea burying the intent as music as much as possible.
>>>> a paranoid and egoless method of producing what chance might
>>>> but more in keeping with the present political system.
>>>> In opposed to that damn smiling (manic, what hillman refers to as the
>>>> untimate psychosis of of age) face of a cage
>>>> >>> This is intriguing, Kraig.
>>>
>>> Can you give an example of this techniue in practice?
>>>
>>> -Aaron.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>> >
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

i meant that in the best way, just so you know

Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> >> Another example might be Gene taking someones midi file and putting
>> > the > >> piece in another tuning, or what ever it is he has up his sleeve
>> >
> I haven't got anything up my sleeve because I haven't been able to get
> the midi file.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles