More details on Thummer posted by Thumtronics CEO

Jim Plamondon recently joined the Thummer thread on the electro-music
forum, sharing more details about the product:

http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10628

Some excerpts:

"the proposed price for the Freedom Thummer (the first commercial
version of the Thummer) is just under 500 *Australian* dollars, which
is only about 375 US dollars."

"a subsequent version of the Thummer -- the eMotion(tm) Thummer -- is
expected to contain a suite of (electronic) linear accelerometers and
gyroscopes, providing up to six more degrees of freedom (for up to
thirteen, total, given the up to seven degrees of freedom provided by
a Freedom Thummer). This is far more expressive potential than any
previous musical instrument has had, and should deliver a very cool
on-stage presence. (The eMotion Thummer would be
supported/positioned/stabilized by a single forearm brace, making it
easy to move & rotate the Thummer through space.) "

This passage may be controversial:

"It turns out that within the context of tonal harmony, one never uses
more than 19 notes per octave, no matter how fine the underlying
division of the octave. You can divide the octave into 31, 51, 53, or
n pieces -- whether equally-tempered or not -- but in the context of
tonal harmony, you're never going to play more than 19 of those notes
in any given key, in any tuning, of any scale. If you place Re (the
note of symemetry of the pentatonic, diatonic, melodic, and double
harmonic scales, among others) in the center of the Thummer keyboard,
and use electronic transposition to keep it there across key changes,
then all of the notes that you're ever going to want to play will be
right there on the Thummer's 19-button-per-octave keyboard. "

Still, a generalized keyboard for $375???

Paolo,

{you wrote...}
>This passage may be controversial:

It isn't merely controversial, it's bullshit. Last I look, Partch had occasion to use most, if not all of his 43 notes on a regular basis. I see their point, and many people could work within those constraints, but it cracks me up to be ground-breaking and limiting at the same time.

Jon

Jon,

I agree, based on the works I've heard posted by MMM participants. :)

But at $370, I remain very interested in this controller. Perhaps
this "dynamic tuning" feature he speaks of may be a workaround, if
it's the ability to switch tunings in realtime. I'm also intrigued by
the eMotion version.

Paolo

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Paolo,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >This passage may be controversial:
>
> It isn't merely controversial, it's bullshit. Last I look, Partch
had occasion to use most, if not all of his 43 notes on a regular
basis. I see their point, and many people could work within those
constraints, but it cracks me up to be ground-breaking and limiting at
the same time.
>
> Jon
>

The thing I don't get about the Thummmer is how they plan to make this
usable with stuff that's already on the market. Does it use pitch-bend to
get the notes via MIDI? Or do they only with with their own synthesis
engine? Or only work with synths that implement the MIDI tuning standard?
Or what?

If it worked half-well for $375 it might be worth it; but I wouldn't buy
on spec, I'd have to be able to really try one out with my current gear.

If anyone buys one, I'd love to hear your experience...

Rick

At 08:39 AM 4/28/2006, you wrote:
>Paolo,
>
>{you wrote...}
>>This passage may be controversial:
>
>It isn't merely controversial, it's bullshit. Last I look, Partch had
>occasion to use most, if not all of his 43 notes on a regular basis.

Is Partch's music "tonal"?

-Carl

>Still, a generalized keyboard for $375???

Yeah, I'm definitely going to get one.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@...> wrote:
>
> The thing I don't get about the Thummmer is how they plan to make this
> usable with stuff that's already on the market. Does it use
pitch-bend to
> get the notes via MIDI? Or do they only with with their own synthesis
> engine? Or only work with synths that implement the MIDI tuning
standard?
> Or what?

This doesn't directly answer your questions, but its the most relevant
bit I could find on their website, at this URL:
http://www.thummer.com/faq.asp

"Is the Thummer(tm)-Brand Jammer MIDI-Compatible? Is it OSC-Compatible?

It is MIDI-compatible through its host PC. The prototype emits a huge
volume of raw control data. An application on the host PC interprets
this raw data and emits it using standard musical data protocols such
as MIDI (Musical Instrument Device Interface) and — in future — a OSC
(Open Sound Control). These protocols are understood by most PC-based
software synthesizers and dedicated hardware synthesizers ("sound
modules") from a wide variety of manufacturers. The PC can send MIDI
data to external sound modules that only "understand" MIDI. Therefore
the Thummer(tm)-brand jammer prototype is as compatible with MIDI and
(in future) OSC as is the host PC itself.

Why Does the Thummer(tm)-Brand Jammer Prototype Require a PC?

The prototype sends its raw control data to a PC because it generates
a LOT of data — far more than any other electronic musical instrument.
Each of its note-buttons continuously measures pressure, which can be
computationally converted into "key velocity" (i.e., how hard a button
was struck), "channel pressure" (the average pressure across all
pressed notes), "polyphonic aftertouch" (i.e., the varying amount of
pressure on each individual key after the initial strike), or simply
"on-off" (like an organ). Also, the jammer-player can control a LOT
of independent continuous variables in real-time simultaneously — at
least five, or nine (and eventually thirteen, we expect) with optional
accessories. Between the Thummer(tm)-brand jammer's polyphonic
aftertouch and many control variables, it emits a huge amount of
control data.

The Thummer(tm)-brand jammer could have been designed not to require a
PC, instead emitting just MIDI — but that would have required (a)
throwing away most of the raw control data, and (b) deciding for our
customers what data to keep and what data to throw away. By running
the raw data through a PC, we can allow our customers to decide what
data to keep and how to interpret it. We are confident that our
customers know their musical needs better than we do, so we're leaving
those decisions up to them.

Of course, simple and logical defaults will be provided to get
beginners up and running quickly and easily, with no decisions required."

Sounds like they're on the right track. Like Rick, though, I wonder
how they expect joe user to get 19-tET.

-Carl

>This doesn't directly answer your questions, but its the most relevant
>bit I could find on their website, at this URL:
>http://www.thummer.com/faq.asp
>
>"Is the Thummer(tm)-Brand Jammer MIDI-Compatible? Is it OSC-Compatible?
>
>It is MIDI-compatible through its host PC. The prototype emits a huge
>volume of raw control data. An application on the host PC interprets
>this raw data and emits it using standard musical data protocols such
>as MIDI (Musical Instrument Device Interface) and — in future — a OSC
>(Open Sound Control). These protocols are understood by most PC-based
>software synthesizers and dedicated hardware synthesizers ("sound
>modules") from a wide variety of manufacturers. The PC can send MIDI
>data to external sound modules that only "understand" MIDI. Therefore
>the Thummer(tm)-brand jammer prototype is as compatible with MIDI and
>(in future) OSC as is the host PC itself.
>
>Why Does the Thummer(tm)-Brand Jammer Prototype Require a PC?
>
>The prototype sends its raw control data to a PC because it generates
>a LOT of data — far more than any other electronic musical instrument.
> Each of its note-buttons continuously measures pressure, which can be
>computationally converted into "key velocity" (i.e., how hard a button
>was struck), "channel pressure" (the average pressure across all
>pressed notes), "polyphonic aftertouch" (i.e., the varying amount of
>pressure on each individual key after the initial strike), or simply
>"on-off" (like an organ). Also, the jammer-player can control a LOT
>of independent continuous variables in real-time simultaneously — at
>least five, or nine (and eventually thirteen, we expect) with optional
>accessories. Between the Thummer(tm)-brand jammer's polyphonic
>aftertouch and many control variables, it emits a huge amount of
>control data.
>
>The Thummer(tm)-brand jammer could have been designed not to require a
>PC, instead emitting just MIDI — but that would have required (a)
>throwing away most of the raw control data, and (b) deciding for our
>customers what data to keep and what data to throw away. By running
>the raw data through a PC, we can allow our customers to decide what
>data to keep and how to interpret it. We are confident that our
>customers know their musical needs better than we do, so we're leaving
>those decisions up to them.
>
>Of course, simple and logical defaults will be provided to get
>beginners up and running quickly and easily, with no decisions required."

yes

Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> Is Partch's music "tonal"?
>
> -Carl
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Not in the context of that quote, it isn't.

-Carl

>yes
>
>Carl Lumma wrote:
>>
>> Is Partch's music "tonal"?
>>
>> -Carl

Well, I read it to refer to common-practice Western music.
Sections of Partch's music may be said to be of that ilk, but
generally anyone composing with a tonality diamond is not
going to be among the folks this guy was speaking to.

-Carl

At 11:53 AM 4/28/2006, you wrote:
>Not in the context of that quote, it isn't.
>
>-Carl
>
>>yes
>>
>>Carl Lumma wrote:
>>>
>>> Is Partch's music "tonal"?
>>>
>>> -Carl

tonal is tonal

Carl Lumma wrote:
> Not in the context of that quote, it isn't.
>
> -Carl
>
> >> yes
>>
>> Carl Lumma wrote:
>> >>> Is Partch's music "tonal"?
>>>
>>> -Carl
>>> >
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "paolovalladolid" <phv40@...>
wrote:

> "It turns out that within the context of tonal harmony, one never uses
> more than 19 notes per octave, no matter how fine the underlying
> division of the octave.

Except when they do, of course.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> At 08:39 AM 4/28/2006, you wrote:
> >Paolo,
> >
> >{you wrote...}
> >>This passage may be controversial:
> >
> >It isn't merely controversial, it's bullshit. Last I look, Partch had
> >occasion to use most, if not all of his 43 notes on a regular basis.
>
> Is Partch's music "tonal"?

Sounds tonal to me.

Gentlepersons,

I appreciate the many insightful comments resulting from Paolo's
recent post regarding Thumtronics' new musical instrument, the
Thummer™.

Rick asked "how they plan to make this usable with stuff that's
already on the market. Does it use pitch-bend to get the notes via
MIDI? Or do they only with with their own synthesis engine? Or only
work with synths that implement the MIDI tuning standard? Or what?"

Excellent question. The Thummer sends a proprietary data stream of
raw control information – with no musical interpretation thereof –
down a USB cable to a PC/Mac running Thumtronics' "Thummer Setup"
program. This open-source program imposes musical meaning on the
Thummer's control data stream, emitting the result as MIDI.
Although no special support for microtonality is included in this
software at present, one competent programmer from the microtonal
community could add such support and thereby make it available to
the rest of the community.

This is a good example of why the Thummer is designed as a "dumb"
controller, communicating via USB with a computer running a "smart"
open-source Thummer Setup program: so that advanced users could
change the Thummer Setup program to suit their needs relatively
easily. Eventually, we'll presumably build stand-alone Thummers for
markets that require them, but I expect that we'll always produce
a "dumb" version, too, for maximum flexibility.

Carl asked "I wonder how they expect joe user to get 19-tET."
Thumtronics has developed a fast and flexible music synthesis
algorithm that supports dynamic tuning, of which I hope to make an
implementation available as a downloadable VST plug-in and/or stand-
alone synth. If controlled by a Thummer's thumb-stick or foot-pedal
and centered on 12-tet, like a pitch bend, then Joe User would not
need to have any understanding of tuning theory to use this new
expressive feature. More creative uses (tuning modulations, tuning
progressions, etc.) would require a deeper understanding, of course.

Regarding the ability of a 19-button-per-octave keyboard to support
[5-limit] tonal harmony in finer-than-19-tone divisions of the
octave through the application of (a) tonic solfa and (b) electronic
transposition – let's postpone discussion of that issue until
Thumtronics' products are on the market, at which point the issue
can be examined through direct experimentation. (I apologize for
not including the important "5-limit" caveat in my initial post.)

Hoping that this post clarifies the issues raised in this forum, and
with appreciation for your interest and discussion, I remain

Yours,

Jim Plamondon
CEO, Thumtronics Ltd
The New Shape of Music™
www.thummer.com

>Jim Plamondon
>CEO, Thumtronics Ltd
>The New Shape of Music™
>www.thummer.com

Hiya Jim, thanks for your reply! Thummer sounds like one of
the most interesting projects to come down the pike in a long
time. I'm looking forward to coming developments...

-Carl

On 4/30/06, thummerman <james@plamondon.net> wrote:
[...]
> down a USB cable to a PC/Mac running Thumtronics' "Thummer Setup"
> program. This open-source program imposes musical meaning on the
[...]

Does it run on GNU/Linux?

Keenan Pepper

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "paolovalladolid" <phv40@>
> wrote:
>
> > "It turns out that within the context of tonal harmony, one never uses
> > more than 19 notes per octave, no matter how fine the underlying
> > division of the octave.
>
> Except when they do, of course.
>

Be sure, Gene, to indicate I was quoting someone else. Thanks.

Paolo

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper"
<keenanpepper@...> wrote:> Does it run on GNU/Linux?

Yes.

The Thummer has some obvious similarities with the Wilson hexagonal
keyboard... hm...

-chris

On 5/2/06, thummerman <james@...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper"
> <keenanpepper@...> wrote:> Does it run on GNU/Linux?
>
> Yes.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
"... free speech is meaningless if the commercial cacophony has risen
to the point that no one can hear you." -Naomi Klein

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>
wrote:
>
> The Thummer has some obvious similarities with the Wilson hexagonal
> keyboard... hm...
>
> -chris

Priority is funny that way
/makemicromusic/files/keyboard/
luedtkek.gif

>
>
> On 5/2/06, thummerman <james@...> wrote:
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper"
> > <keenanpepper@> wrote:> Does it run on GNU/Linux?
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "... free speech is meaningless if the commercial cacophony has
risen
> to the point that no one can hear you." -Naomi Klein
>

Wilson did not think so at all.
As he had sent me a copy of his letter to them a while ago hoping to bring them up to date on all the different work that has been done with keyboard designs
Nor does he consider the previous german hexgonal keyboard related to his patent at all either.

It does seem to resemble a concertina or accordian keyboard though

c.m.bryan wrote:
> The Thummer has some obvious similarities with the Wilson hexagonal
> keyboard... hm...
>
> -chris
>
>
> On 5/2/06, thummerman <james@...> wrote:
> >> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper"
>> <keenanpepper@...> wrote:> Does it run on GNU/Linux?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>
> --
> "... free speech is meaningless if the commercial cacophony has risen
> to the point that no one can hear you." -Naomi Klein
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles