4-movement JI sonata

The In-Tune Sonata
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com/music.html

Created with my program.
It went over pretty well at the UArts Composer's Concert, despite the
sounds. I'm working on that part.

-Chuckk

On 4/26/06, Chuckk Hubbard <BadMuthaHubbard@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The In-Tune Sonata
> http://www.badmuthahubbard.com/music.html
>
> Created with my program.
> It went over pretty well at the UArts Composer's Concert, despite the
> sounds. I'm working on that part.

Ooh, I like it! I could definitely hear some 11-limit chords, but I
doubt that's as high as it goes. What limit is it overall?

Keenan

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper"
<keenanpepper@...> wrote:
>
> On 4/26/06, Chuckk Hubbard <BadMuthaHubbard@...> wrote:
> > The In-Tune Sonata
> > http://www.badmuthahubbard.com/music.html
> >
> > Created with my program.
> > It went over pretty well at the UArts Composer's Concert, despite
the
> > sounds. I'm working on that part.
>
> Ooh, I like it! I could definitely hear some 11-limit chords, but I
> doubt that's as high as it goes. What limit is it overall?
>
> Keenan
>

Thanks! There are a few 13-limit spots in the minuet. The last
chord goes up to the 23rd momentarily.

-Chuckk

>>> The In-Tune Sonata
>>> http://www.badmuthahubbard.com/music.html
>>>
>>> Created with my program.
>>> It went over pretty well at the UArts Composer's Concert,
>>> despite the sounds. I'm working on that part.
//
> There are a few 13-limit spots in the minuet. The last
> chord goes up to the 23rd momentarily.

Very nice. Sorry it's taken me so long to listen.
Yes, I think the sounds could be improved.
I like the first movement better than the second.
Ooh, I think I just hit the trio in the minuet. Is there one?
Hm, maybe not.

This is definitely a musical direction I'd like to hear more
of on this list.

-Carl

I like the periodicity wirrrr, but the when composing ,or rather
presenting micro music I always try to frame the music in this
question: "If it were not for the tuning, would the resulting music
kick ass?" I know everybody doesn't see things this way, especially
microcultist, AND THEY SHOULDN'T, as I learn things from others views
as well (or just learn to agree to disagree and be happy with that) .
Herman Miller is I think a good example of a guy who makes micro
music examples using almost no acoustic or room-recorded
instrumentation, but almost always does a superb job at making the
examples compositionally interesting via orchestration, dynamics, and
a compositional character apart from the tuning . Micro tunings in
and of themselves never do anything for me as "music", and it's my
opinion that ALL music (save demos maybe) requires a supreme effort
on the part of the composer to dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s etc
etc etc. Microtonality, even lovely beatless periodicity buzzing, is
never enough for me .That said, thanks for posting, I actually
enjoyed some bits but just wish for more "detail" in the final music

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> >>> The In-Tune Sonata
> >>> http://www.badmuthahubbard.com/music.html
> >>>
> >>> Created with my program.
> >>> It went over pretty well at the UArts Composer's Concert,
> >>> despite the sounds. I'm working on that part.
> //
> > There are a few 13-limit spots in the minuet. The last
> > chord goes up to the 23rd momentarily.
>
> Very nice. Sorry it's taken me so long to listen.
> Yes, I think the sounds could be improved.
> I like the first movement better than the second.
> Ooh, I think I just hit the trio in the minuet. Is there one?
> Hm, maybe not.
>
> This is definitely a musical direction I'd like to hear more
> of on this list.
>
> -Carl
>

At 01:18 PM 5/6/2006, you wrote:
>I like the periodicity wirrrr, but the when composing ,or rather
>presenting micro music I always try to frame the music in this
>question: "If it were not for the tuning, would the resulting music
>kick ass?" I know everybody doesn't see things this way, especially
>microcultist, AND THEY SHOULDN'T, as I learn things from others views
>as well (or just learn to agree to disagree and be happy with that) .
>Herman Miller is I think a good example of a guy who makes micro
>music examples using almost no acoustic or room-recorded
>instrumentation, but almost always does a superb job at making the
>examples compositionally interesting via orchestration, dynamics, and
>a compositional character apart from the tuning . Micro tunings in
>and of themselves never do anything for me as "music", and it's my
>opinion that ALL music (save demos maybe) requires a supreme effort
>on the part of the composer to dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s etc
>etc etc. Microtonality, even lovely beatless periodicity buzzing, is
>never enough for me .That said, thanks for posting, I actually
>enjoyed some bits but just wish for more "detail" in the final music

I agree, except with the term "composer". Dotting the i's and
crossing the t's has traditionally been the job of performers.

-Carl

ha, only trouble with that is that the micro"composer" IS 99% of the
time bound to be the micro"performer" too!

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> At 01:18 PM 5/6/2006, you wrote:
> >I like the periodicity wirrrr, but the when composing ,or rather
> >presenting micro music I always try to frame the music in this
> >question: "If it were not for the tuning, would the resulting
music
> >kick ass?" I know everybody doesn't see things this way,
especially
> >microcultist, AND THEY SHOULDN'T, as I learn things from others
views
> >as well (or just learn to agree to disagree and be happy with
that) .
> >Herman Miller is I think a good example of a guy who makes micro
> >music examples using almost no acoustic or room-recorded
> >instrumentation, but almost always does a superb job at making the
> >examples compositionally interesting via orchestration, dynamics,
and
> >a compositional character apart from the tuning . Micro tunings in
> >and of themselves never do anything for me as "music", and it's my
> >opinion that ALL music (save demos maybe) requires a supreme
effort
> >on the part of the composer to dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s etc
> >etc etc. Microtonality, even lovely beatless periodicity buzzing,
is
> >never enough for me .That said, thanks for posting, I actually
> >enjoyed some bits but just wish for more "detail" in the final
music
>
> I agree, except with the term "composer". Dotting the i's and
> crossing the t's has traditionally been the job of performers.
>
> -Carl
>

I know, things are tough being in the same situation as Chopin and Liszt?

daniel_anthony_stearns wrote:
> ha, only trouble with that is that the micro"composer" IS 99% of the > time bound to be the micro"performer" too! >
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

i meant this to be funny

Kraig Grady wrote:
> I know, things are tough being in the same situation as Chopin and Liszt?
>
> daniel_anthony_stearns wrote:
> >> ha, only trouble with that is that the micro"composer" IS 99% of the >> time bound to be the micro"performer" too! >>
>>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> >>> The In-Tune Sonata
> >>> http://www.badmuthahubbard.com/music.html
> >>>
> >>> Created with my program.
> >>> It went over pretty well at the UArts Composer's Concert,
> >>> despite the sounds. I'm working on that part.
> //
> > There are a few 13-limit spots in the minuet. The last
> > chord goes up to the 23rd momentarily.
>
> Very nice. Sorry it's taken me so long to listen.
> Yes, I think the sounds could be improved.
> I like the first movement better than the second.
> Ooh, I think I just hit the trio in the minuet. Is there one?
> Hm, maybe not.
>
> This is definitely a musical direction I'd like to hear more
> of on this list.
>
> -Carl
>

Thanks for checking it out, Carl. I'm trying to learn a little more
about synthesis and sound design using Pure Data now that the
semester is over.
I have to say the first movement is the most interesting musically.
That was the case with the first piano sonatina I tried too; I guess
all that "theme a" and "theme b" talk makes me want to use the best
themes for that form.
It is indeed a minuet-trio. One of these days I'm going to zip up my
Pure Data sequencer with instructions and send it out to some like-
minded folks, as I'm still waiting for Tonescape, so if you like I'll
put you on the list.
-Chuckk

Well said. As of now, the 12-tet music I've created is far better
than the JI, in terms of captivating melodies, interesting
modulations, etc. I have a set of observations I'm always trying to
explain to the comp teachers here, unsuccessfully. Foremost is that
I'm trying to affect the listener, not satisfy the listener. If that
involves interruptions and unfinished statements, so much the
better. New material presented at the end of a piece, perfect. This
one was in a pretty rigid form, though, and I hoped the form would
give the uninitiated something concrete to grasp.
This JI is by no means beautiful just as tuning, and if you heard it
without the FOF filters and LFOs, you would hear plenty of chords
that beat. I am really drawn to the "septimal minor 7th" chord,
despite its beating, and I used it a lot here.

The first piece I tried with my program used General MIDI sounds,
which most listeners found far more bearable than my synth sounds,
but for this piece I wanted it all to be from my program from
beginning to end. So I suppose the klang is to be blamed on my
stubbornness and pride this time around.
Thanks for the comments.
-Chuckk

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
<daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote:
>
> I like the periodicity wirrrr, but the when composing ,or rather
> presenting micro music I always try to frame the music in this
> question: "If it were not for the tuning, would the resulting music
> kick ass?" I know everybody doesn't see things this way, especially
> microcultist, AND THEY SHOULDN'T, as I learn things from others
views
> as well (or just learn to agree to disagree and be happy with
that) .
> Herman Miller is I think a good example of a guy who makes micro
> music examples using almost no acoustic or room-recorded
> instrumentation, but almost always does a superb job at making the
> examples compositionally interesting via orchestration, dynamics,
and
> a compositional character apart from the tuning . Micro tunings in
> and of themselves never do anything for me as "music", and it's my
> opinion that ALL music (save demos maybe) requires a supreme effort
> on the part of the composer to dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s etc
> etc etc. Microtonality, even lovely beatless periodicity buzzing,
is
> never enough for me .That said, thanks for posting, I actually
> enjoyed some bits but just wish for more "detail" in the final
music
>
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@> wrote:
> >
> > >>> The In-Tune Sonata
> > >>> http://www.badmuthahubbard.com/music.html
> > >>>
> > >>> Created with my program.
> > >>> It went over pretty well at the UArts Composer's Concert,
> > >>> despite the sounds. I'm working on that part.
> > //
> > > There are a few 13-limit spots in the minuet. The last
> > > chord goes up to the 23rd momentarily.
> >
> > Very nice. Sorry it's taken me so long to listen.
> > Yes, I think the sounds could be improved.
> > I like the first movement better than the second.
> > Ooh, I think I just hit the trio in the minuet. Is there one?
> > Hm, maybe not.
> >
> > This is definitely a musical direction I'd like to hear more
> > of on this list.
> >
> > -Carl
> >
>

I think the best composers ever also realized their own work, even if
only as conductor or producer. The constant practice required just
makes one more fluent in the vocabulary.

-Chuckk

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>
wrote:
>
> I know, things are tough being in the same situation as Chopin and
Liszt?
>
> daniel_anthony_stearns wrote:
> > ha, only trouble with that is that the micro"composer" IS 99% of
the
> > time bound to be the micro"performer" too!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

> explain to the comp teachers here, unsuccessfully. Foremost is that
> I'm trying to affect the listener, not satisfy the listener. If that
> involves interruptions and unfinished statements, so much the
> better. New material presented at the end of a piece, perfect.

I think it's agreeed by the vast majority of theorists that all good
music works that way.

I took an interesting class during my undergrad on music and
psychology, it dealt a lot with listener expectation. For instance if
some event "A" happens, the expectation of the listener is that the
next event will also be "A." If the next event actually happens to be
something different, "B," and B is incrementally related to "A"
(louder, higher, slower, etc), then the listener expectation for the
third event will be "C," where C is a continuation of the movement
between A and B. Those rules apply to everything from note-to-note
events to large-scale structure.

Therefore, in order for music to not surprise the listener, the only
possibly form is A-A-A-A... and not even Phillip Glass can keep that
up forever ;) Only slightly more surprising is
A-B-C-D-E...[infinity], which can't last for long! And anyone in
their right mind would find either form boring, because surprise is a
neccessary ingredient for interest.

From this perspective, good music is a tricky balance of satisfied
expectations, delayed expectations, and denied expectations. It's an
interesting paradox that the listener must have a certain proportion
of her expections denied in order to feel "satisfied." There are no
"rules" of composition, then: only precedents which can be adhered
to, modified, or contradicted according to the whim of the musician:
but it must be done in a way that is "sensible" to the listener (which
is an extended application of the same principle, because there are
precedents for the quantity and quality of broken precedents).
Ultimately it becomes an issue of infinite recursion, going as far as
the listener is willing and able to follow...

:)

-chris

p.s. Chuckk, I've been meaning to say hi to you ever since I saw you
on the list! My apologies. I'm glad to hear that your sequencer has
matured a bit. I haven't listened to your latest piece yet, but it's
downloaded and I'll get to it soon :)

>Thanks for checking it out, Carl. I'm trying to learn a little more
>about synthesis and sound design using Pure Data now that the
>semester is over.
>I have to say the first movement is the most interesting musically.
>That was the case with the first piano sonatina I tried too; I guess
>all that "theme a" and "theme b" talk makes me want to use the best
>themes for that form.
>It is indeed a minuet-trio. One of these days I'm going to zip up my
>Pure Data sequencer with instructions and send it out to some like-
>minded folks, as I'm still waiting for Tonescape, so if you like I'll
>put you on the list.
>-Chuckk

Sure. I'm not doing much of anything musical at the
moment (except piano hour with the baby), but once my wife and
I finish moving (cough cough) I should finally have a better
studio setup, and I want to get working. I suspect my tools
will be either Notion or Finale + a VST rack, but since
Pd is free, I wouldn't mind checking it out.

-Carl

It seems that Feldman was quite big on creating a pattern and then undermining it and in turn undermining those braking of patterns also.
At least in terms of rhythm.

These are those fundamental pushes and pulls in pieces of music that for the most part are not analyzable on paper
or at least not outside time

c.m.bryan wrote:
>
>
> >From this perspective, good music is a tricky balance of satisfied
> expectations, delayed expectations, and denied expectations. It's an
> interesting paradox that the listener must have a certain proportion
> of her expections denied in order to feel "satisfied." There are no
> "rules" of composition, then: only precedents which can be adhered
> to, modified, or contradicted according to the whim of the musician:
> but it must be done in a way that is "sensible" to the listener (which
> is an extended application of the same principle, because there are
> precedents for the quantity and quality of broken precedents).
> Ultimately it becomes an issue of infinite recursion, going as far as
> the listener is willing and able to follow...
>
> :)
>
> -chris
>
> p.s. Chuckk, I've been meaning to say hi to you ever since I saw you
> on the list! My apologies. I'm glad to hear that your sequencer has
> matured a bit. I haven't listened to your latest piece yet, but it's
> downloaded and I'll get to it soon :)
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

J,

{you wrote...}
>This is my problem: I have more soft synths than I'll ever use,
>several of which are microtone-capable, but they lack any realistic
>orchestral timbres. I've been searching for a composition/notation
>program with playback, excellent instrument samples and user-defined
>tuning support, but not having a lot of luck.

Check out the extensive ground-work MMM list member Rick McGowan has laid for us with Finale, GPO, FTS, and some tools and sweat:

http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/FTS-HowTo/MicroOrchestra.html

I look forward to the micro-information on Notion as well. More options in life means better life...

Cheers,
Jon

Ha, one of the things i like about being a vegetarian as it makes it easier to choose from less.
but in this case, the more the merrier

Jon Szanto wrote:
>
>
> I look forward to the micro-information on Notion as well. More options in life means better life...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon >
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

>Carl, have you had any experience at all with either of these
>softwares? I'm evaluating the Finale demo now and just received the
>Notion demo.

I had to use Finale in college, and I hated it with a passion.
I turned to Encore when I quit school. But it's a limited,
dead-end package these days.
But since I know it, it's always easier for me to turn to it
for any given project. I need to go 'cold turkey' to quit.
My friend Stephen went cold turkey on paper for Sibelius, and
now he's faster at the latter than he is at the former.
I own Sibelius, but I hate its UI paradigm, where it tries
to do everything for you.
It is a tremendously rich program, though, and with house
styles and plugins I could probably get it to work satisfactorily
for me. But it looks like a huge amount of work to get there.
Finale is the only major package I know of that's been used
microtonally successfully (read: interactive microtonal playback).
Rick McGowan accomplished that, and maybe David Doty, and
perhaps Daniel Wolf. It's much better these days than when I
was in college. I have the latest version, but I still haven't
taken the time to dig in yet. It seems daunting from the start,
with wizards and such popping up all over the place.
I just got the Notion demo too! And my computer promptly died,
so I'll have to wait about a week until I get it back from IBM.
(I won't be on the list starting tomorrow, for the same reason.)
I wrote Notion an e-mail asking about the claimed microtonal
features. It hasn't been answered in 2-3 weeks.
Daniel Wolf has recently recommended Harmony Assistant, I believe.
Monz has promised microtonal notation with Tonescape, and I'm
psyched to see it.

>This is my problem: I have more soft synths than I'll ever use,
>several of which are microtone-capable, but they lack any realistic
>orchestral timbres. I've been searching for a composition/notation
>program with playback, excellent instrument samples and user-defined
>tuning support, but not having a lot of luck.

Try Kontakt with the new Scala Kontakt microtuner...
http://www.12equalboresme.com

My problem isn't timbres (yet) or microtunable softsynths (of
which I have a few), but a capable instrument (read: score
editor with interactive playback and custom staves or generalized
keyboard).

>Finale's literature says you can create your own scales and
>microtonality, but this is only regarding the notation -- default
>playback is unaffected by microtonal accidentals. I asked a rep
>about this, and his response was:
>
>"You can always create your own soundfonts and define them with a
>MIDI controller. MIDI controllers can be mapped through Finale to
>specifically define a MIDI note #. This will take some setup, but
>will work pretty smoothly when you have your preferences defined for
>the program."
>
>Do you have any idea what he is talking about?

Maybe. In general, Finale sends MIDI notes. With a synth that
supports Scala or .tun files (like Kontakt with the above tool),
you can make anything of them you want. My question is, can one
assign arbitrary MIDI note offsets to accidentals, including
accidental fonts he imports, as well as staff line/space motions?

>I'm guessing he's refering to MIDI pitch-bend,

I don't think he was referring to pitch bend in particular.

>Wouldn't any program supporting MIDI recording/playback also
>support playing re-tuned MIDI files?

If they're pitch-bent, yes. But pitch-bent MIDI generally
sounds like crap for some reason.

>I imported a couple of re-tuned
>MIDI files into Finale, but they sounded "wiggy" -- you heard the
>pitch actually bend (this didn't happen when MegaMid or Anvil Studio
>played the files).

All synths interpret MIDI slightly differently, and since pitch
bend retuning is sort of a 'stretch' -- pitch bends were designed
for melodic expression, not microtonal tunings -- it's quite
possible to get different results with different synths.

>On the other hand, the Notion software rep (in a friendly and
>helpful e-mail) said that a tuning spec for user-defined scales is
>being written now and will be offered as a free upgrade this summer.
>She was most definitely helpful and eager for any suggestion about
>the software. Wow...what a difference!

Notion does seem to be the most promising package out there.
They didn't respond to my (friendly and concise) e-mail, however.
:(

What e-mail address did you use?

-Carl

>Check out the extensive ground-work MMM list member Rick McGowan has
>laid for us with Finale, GPO, FTS, and some tools and sweat:
>
> http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/FTS-HowTo/MicroOrchestra.html

Great page; I'd forgotten the URL. But this doesn't say how
it works in the score. Rick, are you using standard 5-line
staves with standard accidentals and note-heads, or...?
How do you notate 15-tET?

-Carl

Carl asked,

> But this doesn't say how
> it works in the score. Rick, are you using standard 5-line
> staves with standard accidentals and note-heads, or...?

Yes. I long ago gave up on making notation fit the tuning. When you're
using many different tunings, and no software supports any of them
actually, it doesn't make sense to me to bother with them. My scores are
typically only used by the composer anyway.

> How do you notate 15-tET?

Midi note 60 is written as middle C. The thing notated as C#, Midi note
61, is the next highest note in the tuning table, whatever that is. And so
forth. In 15-tet the octave yields a pitch that is written as E-flat above
middle-C. And so forth. At the top of the score I write "15 TET".

Finale does have a really steep learning curve, and I didn't like it much
for a while, but I stuck with it. My intro to Finale was in 1998: after
finding that "everything sucks and the cheaper it is the more it sucks", I
shelled out full price for Finale as the best available package to do
serious scoring with out dippy limitations. I was very tired of half-baked
scoring programs. (Oh, and I was tired of trying to write my own scoring
programs -- they sucked, too!)

Now I'm glad I've been keeping up with Finale updates religiously...
Especially how with GPO, Rhino, and FTS to go with it. :-)

Rick

Hudson Lacerda did some nice work beefing up abcm2ps, an elegant, and more and
more full featured, ascii-based notation language, to be microtonal.

I use abcm2ps, and I find that I'm getting pretty fast at using it's basic
features. The octave pitch syntax bothers me (i prefer all lower-case noe
names and using commas and apostrophes solely for octave indications), but I
wrote a front-end for that.

It's output is pretty, as pretty as finale if not more so, but still not as
beautiful as lilypond, which is also micro-capable, but a *large* package.

IMO, no output of any music typesetting beats Lilypond.

-Aaron.

On Tuesday 23 May 2006 3:09 am, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >Carl, have you had any experience at all with either of these
> >softwares? I'm evaluating the Finale demo now and just received the
> >Notion demo.
>
> I had to use Finale in college, and I hated it with a passion.
> I turned to Encore when I quit school. But it's a limited,
> dead-end package these days.
> But since I know it, it's always easier for me to turn to it
> for any given project. I need to go 'cold turkey' to quit.
> My friend Stephen went cold turkey on paper for Sibelius, and
> now he's faster at the latter than he is at the former.
> I own Sibelius, but I hate its UI paradigm, where it tries
> to do everything for you.
> It is a tremendously rich program, though, and with house
> styles and plugins I could probably get it to work satisfactorily
> for me. But it looks like a huge amount of work to get there.
> Finale is the only major package I know of that's been used
> microtonally successfully (read: interactive microtonal playback).
> Rick McGowan accomplished that, and maybe David Doty, and
> perhaps Daniel Wolf. It's much better these days than when I
> was in college. I have the latest version, but I still haven't
> taken the time to dig in yet. It seems daunting from the start,
> with wizards and such popping up all over the place.
> I just got the Notion demo too! And my computer promptly died,
> so I'll have to wait about a week until I get it back from IBM.
> (I won't be on the list starting tomorrow, for the same reason.)
> I wrote Notion an e-mail asking about the claimed microtonal
> features. It hasn't been answered in 2-3 weeks.
> Daniel Wolf has recently recommended Harmony Assistant, I believe.
> Monz has promised microtonal notation with Tonescape, and I'm
> psyched to see it.
>
> >This is my problem: I have more soft synths than I'll ever use,
> >several of which are microtone-capable, but they lack any realistic
> >orchestral timbres. I've been searching for a composition/notation
> >program with playback, excellent instrument samples and user-defined
> >tuning support, but not having a lot of luck.
>
> Try Kontakt with the new Scala Kontakt microtuner...
> http://www.12equalboresme.com
>
> My problem isn't timbres (yet) or microtunable softsynths (of
> which I have a few), but a capable instrument (read: score
> editor with interactive playback and custom staves or generalized
> keyboard).
>
> >Finale's literature says you can create your own scales and
> >microtonality, but this is only regarding the notation -- default
> >playback is unaffected by microtonal accidentals. I asked a rep
> >about this, and his response was:
> >
> >"You can always create your own soundfonts and define them with a
> >MIDI controller. MIDI controllers can be mapped through Finale to
> >specifically define a MIDI note #. This will take some setup, but
> >will work pretty smoothly when you have your preferences defined for
> >the program."
> >
> >Do you have any idea what he is talking about?
>
> Maybe. In general, Finale sends MIDI notes. With a synth that
> supports Scala or .tun files (like Kontakt with the above tool),
> you can make anything of them you want. My question is, can one
> assign arbitrary MIDI note offsets to accidentals, including
> accidental fonts he imports, as well as staff line/space motions?
>
> >I'm guessing he's refering to MIDI pitch-bend,
>
> I don't think he was referring to pitch bend in particular.
>
> >Wouldn't any program supporting MIDI recording/playback also
> >support playing re-tuned MIDI files?
>
> If they're pitch-bent, yes. But pitch-bent MIDI generally
> sounds like crap for some reason.
>
> >I imported a couple of re-tuned
> >MIDI files into Finale, but they sounded "wiggy" -- you heard the
> >pitch actually bend (this didn't happen when MegaMid or Anvil Studio
> >played the files).
>
> All synths interpret MIDI slightly differently, and since pitch
> bend retuning is sort of a 'stretch' -- pitch bends were designed
> for melodic expression, not microtonal tunings -- it's quite
> possible to get different results with different synths.
>
> >On the other hand, the Notion software rep (in a friendly and
> >helpful e-mail) said that a tuning spec for user-defined scales is
> >being written now and will be offered as a free upgrade this summer.
> >She was most definitely helpful and eager for any suggestion about
> >the software. Wow...what a difference!
>
> Notion does seem to be the most promising package out there.
> They didn't respond to my (friendly and concise) e-mail, however.
>
> :(
>
> What e-mail address did you use?
>
> -Carl
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>> But this doesn't say how
>> it works in the score. Rick, are you using standard 5-line
>> staves with standard accidentals and note-heads, or...?
>
>Yes. I long ago gave up on making notation fit the tuning. When you're
>using many different tunings, and no software supports any of them
>actually, it doesn't make sense to me to bother with them. My scores are
>typically only used by the composer anyway.

Well, I'm glad the approach works for you, and being practical means
you're making music already, but to me this is just like playing
15-tET on a halberstadt keyboard -- a compromise I don't want to make.

-Carl

>Hudson Lacerda did some nice work beefing up abcm2ps, an elegant, and
>more and more full featured, ascii-based notation language, to be
>microtonal.
>
>I use abcm2ps, and I find that I'm getting pretty fast at using it's basic
>features. The octave pitch syntax bothers me (i prefer all lower-case noe
>names and using commas and apostrophes solely for octave indications), but
>I wrote a front-end for that.
>
>It's output is pretty, as pretty as finale if not more so, but still not
>as beautiful as lilypond, which is also micro-capable, but a *large*
>package.
>
>IMO, no output of any music typesetting beats Lilypond.
>
>-Aaron.

The notion of using computers to print things always baffles me.

-Carl

Aaron Krister Johnson escreveu:
> Hudson Lacerda did some nice work beefing up abcm2ps, an elegant, and more and > more full featured, ascii-based notation language, to be microtonal.
> > I use abcm2ps, and I find that I'm getting pretty fast at using it's basic > features. The octave pitch syntax bothers me (i prefer all lower-case noe > names and using commas and apostrophes solely for octave indications), but I > wrote a front-end for that.
> > It's output is pretty, as pretty as finale if not more so, but still not as > beautiful as lilypond, which is also micro-capable, but a *large* package.
> > IMO, no output of any music typesetting beats Lilypond.
> > -Aaron.

Hi Aaron,

You know, both abcm2ps and abc2midi have support for microtonalism.
It is not too easy for some purposes, hence my work on microabc (http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc.zip), to gerate abcpp macros.
Some people were interested in to use Sagittal notation with abcm2ps, which is fully feasible by using the format file sagittal.fmt with embedded PS font code.
I want to do full and easy to use support for Sagittal notation in microabc, but for that some important changes need to be done: built-in preprocessor (not more using abcpp), internal formalisation of Sagittal subsystems (ready-to-use EDOs, like those one can see in Scala notation window), quantization of arbitrary scales into Sagittal notation.
I shall implement those features when I have some free time, and when the Sagittal-2.0 font can be available online.

Cheers,
Hudson

--
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*Ap�ie o Manifesto: http://www.votoseguro.com/alertaprofessores/

== THE WAR IN IRAQ COSTS ==
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--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@...> wrote:

> > How do you notate 15-tET?
>
> Midi note 60 is written as middle C. The thing notated as C#, Midi
note
> 61, is the next highest note in the tuning table, whatever that is.
And so
> forth. In 15-tet the octave yields a pitch that is written as E-flat
above
> middle-C. And so forth. At the top of the score I write "15 TET".

This is basically the idea of Scala seq files, except at the top you
would write "0 equal 15" instead. It's possible you might find Scala
seq files work well as a score system for you. This has the tremendous
advantage that you can convert the score to a midi file.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...> wrote:
> It's an
> interesting paradox that the listener must have a certain proportion
> of her expections denied in order to feel "satisfied."

If the music is going to say something, it cannot be either totally
random or compeltely repetious. If I assign to those a communication
value of zero and pretend Rolle's theorem applies, I can conclude that
somewhere in the middle is maximum communication, where the music says
as much as it can say.

>> > How do you notate 15-tET?
>>
>> Midi note 60 is written as middle C. The thing notated as C#, Midi
>> note 61, is the next highest note in the tuning table, whatever that
>> is. And so forth. In 15-tet the octave yields a pitch that is
>> written as E-flat above middle-C. And so forth. At the top of the
>> score I write "15 TET".
>
>This is basically the idea of Scala seq files, except at the top you
>would write "0 equal 15" instead. It's possible you might find Scala
>seq files work well as a score system for you. This has the tremendous
>advantage that you can convert the score to a midi file.

I'm sure you realize there are serious differences between
graphical and numeric scores, and that Finale can certainly
both save and send MIDI (this is how Rick controls GPO, after
all).

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> I'm sure you realize there are serious differences between
> graphical and numeric scores, and that Finale can certainly
> both save and send MIDI (this is how Rick controls GPO, after
> all).

Even so, I'd say numeric or symbolic ascii scores are clearly better
for machine use, and that graphical scores are for human use.

>> I'm sure you realize there are serious differences between
>> graphical and numeric scores, and that Finale can certainly
>> both save and send MIDI (this is how Rick controls GPO, after
>> all).
>
>Even so, I'd say numeric or symbolic ascii scores are clearly better
>for machine use, and that graphical scores are for human use.

?

-Carl

> > It's an
> > interesting paradox that the listener must have a certain proportion
> > of her expections denied in order to feel "satisfied."
>
> If the music is going to say something, it cannot be either totally
> random or compeltely repetious. If I assign to those a communication
> value of zero and pretend Rolle's theorem applies, I can conclude that
> somewhere in the middle is maximum communication, where the music says
> as much as it can say.

I've actually been reading some things along those lines with regard
to musical algorithms, especially relating to chaos and fractals.
"Good" implementations of these algorithms have that elusive quality
of being *almost* predictable, which I think is fascinating. It's not
the same as "human" music (which just proves that a simple random <->
repetition axis is a gross simplification)... but interesting
nonetheless, "at the edge of chaos."

-chris

p.s. finally catching up on the MMM backlog... :)

if these methods produce a static static of fluctuations, that some how i can pick up on this in the sense that the whole field becomes predictable.
it seems impossible to really get to the edge of chaos or at a chaos we haven't experienced before.
to get to unpredictability possibly different ordering systems?

c.m.bryan wrote:
>
> I've actually been reading some things along those lines with regard
> to musical algorithms, especially relating to chaos and fractals.
> "Good" implementations of these algorithms have that elusive quality
> of being *almost* predictable, which I think is fascinating. It's not
> the same as "human" music (which just proves that a simple random <->
> repetition axis is a gross simplification)... but interesting
> nonetheless, "at the edge of chaos."
>
> -chris
>
> p.s. finally catching up on the MMM backlog... :)
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On 5/24/06, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
> if these methods produce a static static of fluctuations, that some
> how i can pick up on this in the sense that the whole field becomes
> predictable.
> it seems impossible to really get to the edge of chaos or at a chaos we
> haven't experienced before.
> to get to unpredictability possibly different ordering systems?

Believe it or not, I think I know what you mean by a "static static of
fluctuation." :)

I think Xenakis was one of the real pioneers of this thinking, with
all his stochastic stuff. I'm trying (mostly unsucessfully!) to make
it through his book "Formalized Music." I also need to do more
listening, but it seems that he liked his chaotic systems precisely
because they progress from initial unpredictable states toward
emergent predictable goals. Compositionally, then, his human input of
"perturbations" (initial states) into the system are in tension with
the ingrained nature of the system to find its stochastic goal.
Intriguing...

-chris

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@> wrote:
> > It's an
> > interesting paradox that the listener must have a certain proportion
> > of her expections denied in order to feel "satisfied."
>
> If the music is going to say something, it cannot be either totally
> random or compeltely repetious. If I assign to those a communication
> value of zero and pretend Rolle's theorem applies, I can conclude that
> somewhere in the middle is maximum communication, where the music says
> as much as it can say.
>

It sounds like you guys are already thinking this, but based on my
arguments with teachers I must emphasize that two themes are not
interchangable just based on their order. That is, ABBA is not
interchangable with BAAB. The characters of the themes and sub-themes,
etc, and the interactions and contrasts between them, always plays a
part in listener response. Of course practicing musicians know this
intuitively, but theorists can forget it sometimes.
I was kind of infuriated when the most respected theory teacher at my
school listened to a Zappa piece I wanted to talk about and immediately
reduced all of the theme changes to letter names. To my mind there was
only one theme in the entire beginning, and everything else was there
to thwart it and make the listener expect it to be thwarted, but he
named all of the interruptions as themes, even though they were absent
from the rest of the piece, and treated them as all equal.

-Chuckk