twenty-four microtonal compositions

For anyone who might be interested
http://zebox.com/danstearns_2/

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
<daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote:
>
>
> For anyone who might be interested
> http://zebox.com/danstearns_2/
>

Hi Dan- I like what your doing- I wonder if you'd like to discuss
your
process?
I'm on dial-up so I listened to only 4 pieces;
piano prelude1b
guitar choir2
clarinet choir1d
america in Jl
I'm interested in microtunings, but have only taken it as far as
"quarter" (or so) tones on the guitar or fooling with various
intonations on synths that habe that ability.
I once wrote a piece including quater tones for a standard type small
jazz group.
As it was "blusey" in nature the players pulled it off quite well.
Perhaps you'd explain some of the terminology or point me to web
site.
11, 13, 14 edo
NON-just/octave/equal tuning
overtone series 10 and 14
real-time adjustable intonation
free intonation.
I'd like to know what exactly all that means and how one goes about
performing it.
Thanks
KenK

Thanks Ken, I appreciate you taking the time to listen and comment,
and will do my best to answer some of your questions.

Microtonality is full of quirky terms and all kinds of theory; in
fact, it's pretty much a theory head's dream come true! But "edo" is
just a little acronym for Equal Division of the Octave that I coined
back in the late 1990s because I started using tunings like 11 and 13-
tone equal temperament, tunings that were so far removed from common
practice that they could hardly really be seen as having anything to
do with temperament in the true historical and practical sense. So
EDO is just a synonym for the acronym TET (tone equal temperament, as
in 12-tone equal temperament, or 12-tet) that I thought was more in
line with what I was doing with these tunings at the time—that is
taking them at face value with no meaningful attachment to the common
practice, tempered past. To my surprise this term EDO seemed to
resonate with the community (cult) , and has since taken on a life of
its own.

When I say "NON-just/octave/equal tuning" I simply mean that these
pieces use a tuning that is neither Just Intonated, an equal division
of a given periodicity (like the octave or the twelfth, etc), or even
tunings with octaves. That might sound awfully convoluted or whatnot,
but all of those particular tunings I came about empirically by
improvising with the fretless guitar and making notes of the tunings
and preferences as I did so. Then I flew these tunings over to a
tuning table and composed music rather intuitively with them. So it
might sound complex or academic or even silly, but it was really a
quite simple, if unusual, process.

"overtone series 10 and 14" means that the tuning is based on these
two overtone series:

10:11:12:13:14:15:16:17:18:19:20
1/1, 11/10, 6/5, 13/10, 7/5, 3/2, 8/5, 17/10, 9/5, 19/10, 2/1

14:15:16:17:18:19:20:21:22:23:24:25:26:27:28
1/1, 15/14, 8/7, 17/14, 9/7, 19/14, 10/7, 3/2, 11/7, 23/14, 12/7,
25/14, 13/7, 27/14, 2/1

So I combined these two series and mapped them to two octaves on the
keyboard.

By "real-time adjustable intonation" I mean that these pieces (and
these interestingly enough for anybody here, are jazz pieces) use
four turntables and two separate recordings. So the turntables are
set in pairs and each pair has the same record as its paired partner,
yet each pair's recording is unrelated. By using the pitch knob in a
manner somewhat analogous to a dimmer switch, each pair tries to keep
their recording synched to the other pairs, as well as their
partners! And this requires a constant gradual sharpening and
flattening of the recording resulting in a real-time adjustable
intonation.

By "free intonation" I mean intonation without predetermined theory
or design, and here that refers to two things, 1) pieces for
instruments (like the trombone or the violin or the human voice, etc)
without fixed pitch, and 2) pieces featuring little modest homemade
instruments with an intonation of their own unfortunate construction!

Performance is another thing altogether, and in some ways
microtonality forces a lot of its practitioners off to islands of
their own design .There are performers and organizations that
specialize in just this very thing, the AFMM (American festival of
microtonal music) being the most accomplished and varied proponent ,
but I myself have been involved in microtonality for almost 20 years
now and have never had any performance or recording where I wasn't
either doing it all myself or training ,bribing, coercing and begging
others to at least have a look and a listen…

Thanks again, Dan

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
<daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote:

> To my surprise this term EDO seemed to
> resonate with the community (cult) , and has since taken on a life of
> its own.

It turns out to be a useful term in tuning theory, since an edo does
not claim to be a temperament, whereas an tet/et does.

On 4/26/06, Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
> <daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote:
>
> > To my surprise this term EDO seemed to
> > resonate with the community (cult) , and has since taken on a life of
> > its own.
>
> It turns out to be a useful term in tuning theory, since an edo does
> not claim to be a temperament, whereas an tet/et does.

I've been thinking about this distinction a lot lately. I've been
trying to think of 12-EDO as an EDO rather than a temperament, without
resorting to serialism. To do this, I've been working in 4-EDO and
6-EDO, since those really feel like EDOs to me, rather than
temperaments, and then trying to expand that to fill all 12 notes.
Though it's mostly an aesthetic concern, I think there are also some
practical considerations in which divisions work better as
temperaments (high-order divisions seem to almost demand that they be
thought of as temperaments) and which divisions work better as pure
divisions (For me, anything less than 12)

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

On 4/26/06, Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@gmail.com> wrote:
> > It turns out to be a useful term in tuning theory, since an edo does
> > not claim to be a temperament, whereas an tet/et does.
>
> I've been thinking about this distinction a lot lately. I've been
> trying to think of 12-EDO as an EDO rather than a temperament, without
[...]

I'm really confused. Since when is an EDO not a temperament?

Keenan

Keenan Pepper escreveu:
> On 4/26/06, Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...> wrote:
> >>>It turns out to be a useful term in tuning theory, since an edo does
>>>not claim to be a temperament, whereas an tet/et does.
>>
>>I've been thinking about this distinction a lot lately. I've been
>>trying to think of 12-EDO as an EDO rather than a temperament, without
> > [...]
> > I'm really confused. Since when is an EDO not a temperament?

Since the moment it is intended to be "as it is", instead of to be an approximation (tempering) to any other tuning.

_______________________________________________________ Yahoo! Acesso Gr�tis - Internet r�pida e gr�tis. Instale o discador agora! http://br.acesso.yahoo.com

On 4/26/06, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br> wrote:
[...]
> > I'm really confused. Since when is an EDO not a temperament?
>
> Since the moment it is intended to be "as it is", instead of to be an
> approximation (tempering) to any other tuning.

I'm still in the dark. Does this relate to music or is it just some
philosophical idea? This is the MMM list, after all.

Keenan

Keenan Pepper escreveu:
> On 4/26/06, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
> [...]
> >>>I'm really confused. Since when is an EDO not a temperament?
>>
>>Since the moment it is intended to be "as it is", instead of to be an
>>approximation (tempering) to any other tuning.
> > > I'm still in the dark. Does this relate to music or is it just some
> philosophical idea? This is the MMM list, after all.

Concerning specifically to 12-EDO, I suppose it is difficult argue pro its intervals without reference to the corresponding just intonation intervals. But one could yet claim that there are so many people accustomed to 12-EDO that, for them, 5/4 is a ``(mis)tempered version'' of 400 cents...

Uncommons scales, especially when ties to uncommon timbres, could challenge this opposition between ``philosophy'' and ``music''. Recall Sethares (theoretical and practical) contributions to ``xentonality'', and his pieces in 10-EDO (with related spectra), like one piece he ``posted'' here recently.

Regards.

_______________________________________________________ Abra sua conta no Yahoo! Mail: 1GB de espa�o, alertas de e-mail no celular e anti-spam realmente eficaz. http://br.info.mail.yahoo.com/

just a friendly reminder that this thread originated as one about a new
page i put up featuring 24 microtonal pieces, so i guess it does relate
to MMM! not that it really matters though, as people are only going to
post about what interests them anyway.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper"
<keenanpepper@...> wrote:
>
> On 4/26/06, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
> [...]
> > > I'm really confused. Since when is an EDO not a temperament?
> >
> > Since the moment it is intended to be "as it is", instead of to be
an
> > approximation (tempering) to any other tuning.
>
> I'm still in the dark. Does this relate to music or is it just some
> philosophical idea? This is the MMM list, after all.
>
> Keenan
>

It seems there could be an UDO an unequal division of the octave.
Their is an Edo period of Japanese music

Hudson Lacerda wrote:
> Keenan Pepper escreveu:
> >> On 4/26/06, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> >>>> I'm really confused. Since when is an EDO not a temperament?
>>>> >>> Since the moment it is intended to be "as it is", instead of to be an
>>> approximation (tempering) to any other tuning.
>>> >> I'm still in the dark. Does this relate to music or is it just some
>> philosophical idea? This is the MMM list, after all.
>> >
> Concerning specifically to 12-EDO, I suppose it is difficult argue pro > its intervals without reference to the corresponding just intonation > intervals. But one could yet claim that there are so many people > accustomed to 12-EDO that, for them, 5/4 is a ``(mis)tempered version'' > of 400 cents...
>
> Uncommons scales, especially when ties to uncommon timbres, could > challenge this opposition between ``philosophy'' and ``music''. Recall > Sethares (theoretical and practical) contributions to ``xentonality'', > and his pieces in 10-EDO (with related spectra), like one piece he > ``posted'' here recently.
>
> Regards.
>
>
> _______________________________________________________ > Abra sua conta no Yahoo! Mail: 1GB de espa�o, alertas de e-mail no celular e anti-spam realmente eficaz. > http://br.info.mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Keenan,

{you wrote...}
>I'm still in the dark. Does this relate to music or is it just some philosophical idea? This is the MMM list, after all.

You aren't, by any chance, trying to say that there *aren't* philosophical dimensions to the making of music, are you? It isn't black and white.

I'm not entirely clear on the topic of temperament, but to be such, it has to be a tempering of something, right? And dividing the octave into arbitrary numbers of segments can be a completely separate entity. I think EDO is a very straight-forward terminology, and tend to use it as opposed to ET.

Cheers,
Jon

KG,

{you wrote...}
>It seems there could be an UDO an unequal division of the octave.

See below...

>Their is an Edo period of Japanese music

Hah! :) Then there could be the Equal Division of the Octave - NOT, or Udon.

Cheers,
Jon

that is quite good.
i really wanted an UBU
in its relationship to dada
Unequal bisections of Unequal intervals.

Jon Szanto wrote:
> KG,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >> It seems there could be an UDO an unequal division of the octave.
>> >
> See below...
>
> >> Their is an Edo period of Japanese music
>> >
> Hah! :) Then there could be the Equal Division of the Octave - NOT, or Udon.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon >
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On 4/27/06, Jon Szanto <jszanto@cox.net> wrote:
> You aren't, by any chance, trying to say that there *aren't* philosophical dimensions to the making of music, are you? It isn't black and white.
>
> I'm not entirely clear on the topic of temperament, but to be such, it has to be a tempering of something, right? And dividing the octave into arbitrary numbers of segments can be a completely separate entity. I think EDO is a very straight-forward terminology, and tend to use it as opposed to ET.

Okay then, give me a musical example illustrating this "completely
separate entity". I still don't have much of an idea what you're
talking about, but I'm intrigued.

Keenan

Keenan,

{you wrote...}
>Okay then, give me a musical example illustrating this "completely separate entity". I still don't have much of an idea what you're talking about, but I'm intrigued.

I'm happy to be corrected if I am thinking wrongly, and this is probably better placed on the tuning list, but I don't read much there, so I'll be brief. I've always connected temperament with the term temper, as in to temper the intervals of a given tuning to accomplish some goal. One tempers intervals from Pythagorian or just intonation to spread them out equally over 12 half-steps to avoid wolves and play in all keys (assumedly) equally well. In this instance, the tempering - or alteration of existing intervals - is what generates the temperament.

When I think of 5 EDO, I'm not considering those 5 pitches in relation to anything else but the octave, and that they are simply splitting the interval of an octave into 5 equal parts.

The philosophical point to this, I suppose, it to look at an EDO as conceptually and aesthetically different from a scale that is, a priori, tempered for a purpose. EDOs seem more "blank slate" to me.

Then again, this is all pretty hilarious, since I tend to avoid EDO tunings and composing (but not necessarily other people's music) like the plague! Just my personal choice, but I believe very strongly that in the making of music - as in the making of any artistic creation - the choice of initial materials is not only very important, but can have very personal and philosophical relevance. This is one area where I diverge completely from those who would measure an intonation and say "but you could just as well..."

No, I couldn't.

Cheers,
Jon

At 05:50 AM 4/27/2006, you wrote:
>On 4/27/06, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>> You aren't, by any chance, trying to say that there *aren't*
>philosophical dimensions to the making of music, are you? It isn't
>black and white.
>>
>> I'm not entirely clear on the topic of temperament, but to be such,
>it has to be a tempering of something, right? And dividing the octave
>into arbitrary numbers of segments can be a completely separate
>entity. I think EDO is a very straight-forward terminology, and tend
>to use it as opposed to ET.
>
>Okay then, give me a musical example illustrating this "completely
>separate entity". I still don't have much of an idea what you're
>talking about, but I'm intrigued.
>
>Keenan

Atonal serial music might be considered to be in 12-EDO, no?

For myself, I hate the terminology. Must we be neurotic literalists
always? ET was an established, perfectly functional term. Though
I must say EDO has seen very rapid adoption all over the place.

-Carl

Carl,

{you wrote...}
>Must we be neurotic literalists always?

Apparently. :)

>ET was an established, perfectly functional term. Though I must say EDO has seen very rapid adoption all over the place.

Me, I don't really care, people can call it whatever they like. But I'm still curious if the distinction I've drawn, as what I understand from others, is essentially accurate. That is, the difference between something that is tempered and something that is merely divided equally without context.

Cheers,
Jon

at least it is term one can often figure out by context.
Some other terms are impossible in this regard.
What is torrent TW?

Carl Lumma wrote:
> At 05:50 AM 4/27/2006, you wrote:
> >> On 4/27/06, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>> >>> You aren't, by any chance, trying to say that there *aren't* >>> >> philosophical dimensions to the making of music, are you? It isn't >> black and white.
>> >>> I'm not entirely clear on the topic of temperament, but to be such, >>> >> it has to be a tempering of something, right? And dividing the octave >> into arbitrary numbers of segments can be a completely separate >> entity. I think EDO is a very straight-forward terminology, and tend >> to use it as opposed to ET.
>>
>> Okay then, give me a musical example illustrating this "completely
>> separate entity". I still don't have much of an idea what you're
>> talking about, but I'm intrigued.
>>
>> Keenan
>> >
> Atonal serial music might be considered to be in 12-EDO, no?
>
> For myself, I hate the terminology. Must we be neurotic literalists
> always? ET was an established, perfectly functional term. Though
> I must say EDO has seen very rapid adoption all over the place.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

In this sense it makes sense as it gives one an idea what one will be hearing.
I would have to assume that one is using equal division in order to conveniently explore the continuum?
Otherwise why have any system at all, unless one is interested in the structural possibilities of what said number provides.
and then , why the octave? or are these implied, later steps for the future
Maybe it is an exploration into "scale" period , with it melodic integrity without any acoustical preference. or an exploration to scale as color or Derreg-istic mood
It is the opposite of say Ben Johnstons work, where there is no real scale, only harmonic relationships that expand and contract into an infinite grid dictated by his forms and ears.
Jon Szanto wrote:
> Carl,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >> Must we be neurotic literalists always?
>> >
> Apparently. :)
>
> >> ET was an established, perfectly functional term. Though I must say EDO has seen very rapid adoption all over the place.
>> >
> Me, I don't really care, people can call it whatever they like. But I'm still curious if the distinction I've drawn, as what I understand from others, is essentially accurate. That is, the difference between something that is tempered and something that is merely divided equally without context.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon >
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> >> On 4/27/06, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> You aren't, by any chance, trying to say that there *aren't*
> >> philosophical dimensions to the making of music, are you? It isn't
> >> black and white.

For me, it's a very philisophical process. Any time I make art, it
encompasses (without my even trying) a portion of my worldview. So
some notes spill out onto the page, and they reflect in equal parts
the theoretical issues I'm interested at the moment and the emotional
issues that make up my daily ambience. I can't make music, or even
live, without a constant chatter of philosophy and theory constantly
being revised and experimented with.

> Carl Lumma wrote:
> > Atonal serial music might be considered to be in 12-EDO, no?

Certainly. Especially (to my mind) the later, more percussive
serialism of Boulez and Babbit, and even some of Nancarrow's pieces
that move largely in semitones (Study number 20 especially)

> > For myself, I hate the terminology. Must we be neurotic literalists
> > always? ET was an established, perfectly functional term. Though
> > I must say EDO has seen very rapid adoption all over the place.

I don't think it's neurotic, because the distinction has a very real
meaning in the way I compose. For me, the biggest difference is that
when I use an ET, I only use a subset of the pitches available,
usually a moment of symmetry in a single key derived from specific
generators and containing certain references to Just Intonation
approximations. When I write in an EDO, I use all of the notes with
equal weight, without tonal implications. See, for instance, "Nothing
of Any Importance" in 4-EDO. Also, when I write in an ET I
(sub)consciously have chord-centric ideas held in my mind during the
sketching process (usually jazz-oriented) and when I write in an EDO I
have more gamelan-like sensibilities at the forefront.

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

i can only question that EDO is not possible. there is always the place one hears things.
At a certain point something becomes a third, below that it becomes a second.
we are always going to hear any scale within our own cultural contexts.

It is quite possible that we can brainwash ourselves ( it worked for the serialist)
but somehow other ears seem to not be even slightly sympathetic to others jumping off the cliff
Jon Szanto wrote:
> Keenan,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >> Okay then, give me a musical example illustrating this "completely separate entity". I still don't have much of an idea what you're talking about, but I'm intrigued.
>> >
> I'm happy to be corrected if I am thinking wrongly, and this is probably better placed on the tuning list, but I don't read much there, so I'll be brief. I've always connected temperament with the term temper, as in to temper the intervals of a given tuning to accomplish some goal. One tempers intervals from Pythagorian or just intonation to spread them out equally over 12 half-steps to avoid wolves and play in all keys (assumedly) equally well. In this instance, the tempering - or alteration of existing intervals - is what generates the temperament.
>
> When I think of 5 EDO, I'm not considering those 5 pitches in relation to anything else but the octave, and that they are simply splitting the interval of an octave into 5 equal parts.
>
> The philosophical point to this, I suppose, it to look at an EDO as conceptually and aesthetically different from a scale that is, a priori, tempered for a purpose. EDOs seem more "blank slate" to me.
>
> Then again, this is all pretty hilarious, since I tend to avoid EDO tunings and composing (but not necessarily other people's music) like the plague! Just my personal choice, but I believe very strongly that in the making of music - as in the making of any artistic creation - the choice of initial materials is not only very important, but can have very personal and philosophical relevance. This is one area where I diverge completely from those who would measure an intonation and say "but you could just as well..."
>
> No, I couldn't.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon >
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:

> For myself, I hate the terminology. Must we be neurotic literalists
> always? ET was an established, perfectly functional term.

"Temperatures of [n] parts" http://tinyurl.com/pgy26
(I wonder, if it was Cotes that suggested "mean tone")

Funny the first reliable microtones I used, (except, in ignorance I
guess, Alesis hr-16), was a ukelele with octaves divided in 11 parts.

Clark

On 4/27/06, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com> wrote:
> i can only question that EDO is not possible. there is always the place
> one hears things.
> At a certain point something becomes a third, below that it becomes a
> second.
> we are always going to hear any scale within our own cultural contexts.
>
> It is quite possible that we can brainwash ourselves ( it worked for
> the serialist)
> but somehow other ears seem to not be even slightly sympathetic to
> others jumping off the cliff

Right, that's exactly what I keep thinking. And it's not just culture,
it's physics too. An interval has a characteristic sound which depends
on its proximity to just intervals, and that's simple acoustic fact
(although I do have to remind myself to find a copy of "Tuning Timbre
Spectrum Scale").

> Jon Szanto wrote:
> > When I think of 5 EDO, I'm not considering those 5 pitches in relation to anything else but the octave, and that they are simply splitting the interval of an octave into 5 equal parts.

But there is still a hierarchy of consonance and dissonance. The
interval made up of 3 steps of 5-edo is more consonant than the
interval of a single step. I don't see how you could ignore that and
still write meaningful music (although if someone claims to have done
that, I'd love to hear it!).

Keenan

and your favorite song?

threesixesinarow wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
> > >> For myself, I hate the terminology. Must we be neurotic literalists
>> always? ET was an established, perfectly functional term.
>> >
> "Temperatures of [n] parts" http://tinyurl.com/pgy26
> (I wonder, if it was Cotes that suggested "mean tone")
>
> Funny the first reliable microtones I used, (except, in ignorance I > guess, Alesis hr-16), was a ukelele with octaves divided in 11 parts.
>
> Clark
>
>
>
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

should anyone be interested, i thought i'd mention that the new site's
microtonal music got a nice mention yesterday in Daniel Wolf's New
Music blog Renewable Music

http://renewablemusic.blogspot.com/

thanks daniel

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
<daniel_anthony_stearns@...> wrote:
>
>
> For anyone who might be interested
> http://zebox.com/danstearns_2/
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:

>This is one area where I diverge completely from those who would
>measure an intonation and say "but you could just as well..."
>
> No, I couldn't.

If music is for listening, then you could.

Gene,

{you wrote...}
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>>This is one area where I diverge completely from those who would
>>measure an intonation and say "but you could just as well..."
>>
>> No, I couldn't.
>
>If music is for listening, then you could.

Boy, I won't belabor this with you, that is for sure. One could utilize water colors instead of oils, since the painting is made for looking at, but one might want to use oils for some reason. I firmly believe that an artisans choice of materials has many rationale to it, not merely it's contents, constituents, components, or measurements. It is part of the ineffable nature of artistic creation that I love, and when I find the right materials the music starts to flow.

Usually. :)

Cheers,
Jon

Keenan,

{you wrote...}
>> Jon Szanto wrote:
>> > When I think of 5 EDO, I'm not considering those 5 pitches in relation to anything else but the octave, and that they are simply splitting the interval of an octave into 5 equal parts.
>
>But there is still a hierarchy of consonance and dissonance.

Didn't say there wasn't.

>The interval made up of 3 steps of 5-edo is more consonant than the interval of a single step. I don't see how you could ignore that and still write meaningful music (although if someone claims to have done that, I'd love to hear it!).

I am not following your questioning - what does this have to do with the use of the term temperament? EDO seems to be the very most accurate description of what it is. Again, I don't have any particular angle on this, as I don't have much interest in EDOs as a rule.

More to the point would be the folly of branding any particular music "meaningful" (or "non-..."), which last I looked couldn't be measured!

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:

> Me, I don't really care, people can call it whatever they like. But
I'm still curious if the distinction I've drawn, as what I understand
from others, is essentially accurate. That is, the difference between
something that is tempered and something that is merely divided
equally without context.

I'm afraid I think of it as the difference between an object and a
morphism. :)

That is, an equal temperament involves a mapping
h:JI-->integers-->pitches, whereas an edo is just a group of pitches.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper"
<keenanpepper@...> wrote:
>
> On 4/26/06, Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...> wrote:
> > > It turns out to be a useful term in tuning theory, since an edo
> > > does not claim to be a temperament, whereas an tet/et does.
> >
> > I've been thinking about this distinction a lot lately. I've been
> > trying to think of 12-EDO as an EDO rather than a temperament,
without
> [...]
>
> I'm really confused. Since when is an EDO not a temperament?
>
> Keenan
>

Some EDO's _are_ temperaments.

It's rather like the situation with the modern term "chairperson"
and the old term "chairman". They both used to mean the same thing.
The term "chairperson" was invented to avoid sexist implications.

Similarly "EDO" was invented to avoid "JI-approximationist"
implications. It is intended to be _neutral_ on the question of JI-
approximation. When Rosencratz the Sane contrasts it against
temperament above, he is using it loosely. He gives the correct
relationship in his first paragraph.

But of course once you invent a new, clearly-neutral term like that,
the old term starts to mean something different to what it used to
mean. In the past when someone spoke of 6-ET or 33-ET, no one would
have assumed there was any JI-approximation implied. But now
that "EDO" is in use. You might be asked to justify your use of "ET"
in cases like those.

And then of course people want a term that is the opposite of (the
new meaning of) "chairman", hence "chairwoman". So in his second
paragraph Rosencrantz could have used something like "ENT" (equal
non-temperament) instead of "EDO".

In most cases, the straight-out question of whether an EDO is a
temperament or not is meaningless. This is a question about its
_use_ in a particular piece, or perhaps about an intention in a
composers mind, or perhaps it has to be answered by every individual
_listener_ to the piece. I assume that's what you mean by it being
philosophical rather than musical.

At least if you use "EDO" you should be considered neutral and safe
from these questions.

-- Dave Keenan

keep your eye on the prize anyway we can!

Jon Szanto wrote:
>
> It is part of the ineffable nature of artistic creation that I love, and when I find the right materials the music starts to flow.
>
> Usually. :)
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On 4/27/06, Jon Szanto <jszanto@cox.net> wrote:
> >But there is still a hierarchy of consonance and dissonance.
>
> Didn't say there wasn't.

Okay, so now I officially have no idea what this whole discussion is
about. It seems like we're just throwing words around for no reason.

> I am not following your questioning - what does this have to do with the use of the term temperament? EDO seems to be the very most accurate description of what it is. Again, I don't have any particular angle on this, as I don't have much interest in EDOs as a rule.

I really, really don't care what you call it, I care what you do with it.

> More to the point would be the folly of branding any particular music "meaningful" (or "non-..."), which last I looked couldn't be measured!

Well, it can't be measured, but Johnny Reinhard's "Dune", for example,
means something to me, whereas music generated by rolling dice, or by
a simple algorithm with no human manipulation, means nothing to me.

Keenan

I tend to side with this outlook, that i am more interested in what people can do more than methods or machinery.
The weak point in this view is that , it so often hard to draw the line as even acoustic instruments are machines on some level.

Keenan Pepper wrote:
>
>
> Well, it can't be measured, but Johnny Reinhard's "Dune", for example,
> means something to me, whereas music generated by rolling dice, or by
> a simple algorithm with no human manipulation, means nothing to me.
>
> Keenan
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> What is torrent TW?

I don't know what TW is, but torrent is something that google
will tell you about.

-Carl

thanks for the non anwwer.

Carl Lumma wrote:
>> What is torrent TW?
>> >
> I don't know what TW is, but torrent is something that google
> will tell you about.
>
> -Carl >
>
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

>Me, I don't really care, people can call it whatever they like. But
>I'm still curious if the distinction I've drawn, as what I understand
>from others, is essentially accurate. That is, the difference between
>something that is tempered and something that is merely divided
>equally without context.

Yes, I think there's a valid distinction there. One could argue that
everything is a temperament, no matter how bad. But 11, while a fairly
bad temperament, could be a great EDO. As as I think atonal serial
music shows, even the best temperaments can be bad EDOs! :)

-Carl