Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic MIDI to WAV

I'll try to write this e-mail again, since it never showed up.

These look like tools that capture the output of a synth on
your PC and save it to disk...
http://www.midi2wav.com/
http://convert-midi.com/midi-to-wav.shtml
http://www.maniactools.com/soft/midi_converter/index.shtml
http://www.008soft.com/products/midi-to-wav-maker.htm

WAVmaker is tuning-friendly and has its own synthesis
capabilities, but it isn't clear what sample formats it
supports. I've sent an email asking about sf2, but I'm not
hopeful. Daniel Wolf used to use it... can you update us
on this, Daniel?
http://www.polyhedric.com/software/wavmaker/

My old tool of choice, Audio Compositor, is still dead. :(

GigaStudio is another possibility. It's always crashed my
machine and the interface is a study in obfuscation.

Edirol's Sound Canvas softsynths are another option. Herman
Miller is using one of them. They don't support sf2 I don't
think, but their sounds are I guess not too bad, and they
do save WAV, and... what about MTS support...?

Thanks,

-Carl

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Rick Taylor <rtaylor@...>

--- MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> 25. Re: MIDI to WAV

That really seems like a lot of hassle just to convert a midi file. If you've
got sonar3pro you've already got
http://www.maz-sound.de/db/phorum/read.php?f=27&i=1939&t=1889&v=f

If not, ^ there's the link. If you're wanting microtuning you're sort of
limited as far as synths go. Try CUBE {
http://www.virsyn.de/en/E_Home/e_home.html } or
http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=2908

If you just want to convert your midi file:
http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/cat/MIDI_CONVERTERS/

What part of the music industry did you work in?

> Ok, I'm pretty sure I saw an ad saying they'll give away Wusikstation
> in the next Computer Music magazine (March?). It's one of those soft
> synths that understands .tun scala files. I'm not sure if it creates
> sounds from scratch, or uses samples though. So you could import a
> midi without any pitch bends, and then set the tuning for them. Gene,
> do you actually write those scala .seq files from scratch?
>
> Joe
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
> >
> > Gene,
> >
> > {you wrote...}
> > >I'm not a synth guy because they don't seem to be making synths
> with me in mind.
> >
> > Right.
> >
> > >I want something which can work from an ascii score of some kind,
> like Csound, or from a midi file, and which supports microtonality. If
> I could get a collection of Csound intruments I liked I'd be in
> business, perhaps.
> >
> > I'd think Csound would be a good environment for you, but might be
> more "getting your hands dirty" than you'd care to deal with (or have
> time). Do you like Prent's use of samples in Csound? Since I know you
> would like to emulate acoustic instruments, it seems like his work is
> some of the most successful of that strategy in Csound I've heard.
> >
> > >The host program has the note numbers and instruments without the
> tunings?
> >
> > Ah, the light bulb goes on! Yes, that is it exactly. For instance,
> let us say I want to write a single line in 15tet. I start up the
> sequencer (Sonar), insert an instrumental track (lets say an
> instrument called Rhino). When I do this there is now a track ready
> for me to record some midi music. I open Rhino and load a Scala .tun
> file for 15tet. Now, whenever I play my 61-note keyboard, Rhino is
> playing notes in 15tet. I can now enter music by
> >
> > - playing in real time
> > - step entering notes (this is non-realtime entry from the keyboard)
> > - use a piano roll
> > - I could even, if I had a midi file laying around, simply 'import'
> the midi file
> >
> > Hit the "Play" button and it plays the music in 15tet. It really is
> pretty simple. One of the beauties of this is that since it is the
> instrument that encompasses the tuning, and not the midi file, I could
> have any number of instruments tuned to differing tunings. Not
> everyone would do this, but for instance: someone working in a
> large-number ET for accuracy might actually be composing parts with
> small subsets. You could create tuning files for some of those
> subscales and load those individually.
> >
> > I'm not saying everyone should work this way, and it may very well
> not be the best route for you. But it really works well for me right
> now, and is getting better all the time. One of the things about the
> current MMM Day stuff is that I've got a program that translates
> samples from/to many formats. What this means is that I can take, for
> instance, soundfonts and translate them to a format for an instrument
> called Wusikstation; this instrument tunes with .tun files, and so I
> now have access to some decent instruments (I used a Steinway
> soundfont in this piece) that can be microtuned. It is a lot less
> expensive than going the Kontakt 2 route - I still have more work to
> do to get the samples/patches sounding the way I want, but it may mean
> that I don't have to deal with Kontakt for the moment.
> >
> > >And what drives the host--in other words, what is the score, if any?
> >
> > The midi data that is either input by me, or imported into the
> sequencer from an existing midi file. One of the nice things is that
> you can immediately view the data as a list of events, piano roll, or
> actual staff notation (12tet only).

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>> 25. Re: MIDI to WAV
>
>That really seems like a lot of hassle just to convert a midi file.
>If you've got sonar3pro you've already got
> http://www.maz-sound.de/db/phorum/read.php?f=27&i=1939&t=1889&v=f

Jeez, that sounds horrible.

>Try CUBE
> http://www.virsyn.de/en/E_Home/e_home.html }

I have it, but I've never tried it.

> http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=2908

Wow, this is news. Great!!

>If you just want to convert your midi file:
> http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/cat/MIDI_CONVERTERS/

This looks like the same links I posted earlier.

>What part of the music industry did you work in?

Advertising. I mean, Keyboard magazine.

-Carl

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Joe <tamahome02000@...>

http://microtonal-synthesis.com lists lots of microtonal soft synths:

.tun (list from scala):
anamark (50$, float); vaz plus (70$), 2001 (175$), modular (350$); big
tick
angelina (51$), rainbow (89$), rhino (128$); camel audio cameleon 5000
(200$); linplug albino 2 (199$), alpha 2 (59$), cronox (139$); hercs
series (53$, there's a monophonic free one); tobybear helios (free,
sample only); virsyn cube (342$) & tera 2 (366$);
wusikstation v2 (30/100$)

z3ta+ (190$)
orion pro (99$/249$)
alsamodularsynth (0)
msp(295$)
fluidsynth (free, soundfonts, linux)
korg legacy collection (99?)
speedsoft vsampler (182)
midicode (70$)
csound?
ZynAddSubFX (free, buggy as a vst, also standalone)

NI: reaktor 5 (inf scale res) (449$), pro-53(49/229$ inf), fm7 (49/339
inf),
absynth 3 (339$)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@> wrote:
>
> > >Try CUBE
> > > http://www.virsyn.de/en/E_Home/e_home.html }
>
> Why is Cantor the world's only vocal synthesis program? What is
> Vocaloid, chopped liver? I've been considering getting it, should I
> consider Cantor also?
>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Rick,

{you wrote...}
>If not, ^ there's the link. If you're wanting microtuning you're sort of limited as far as synths go.

Someone else has already posted some of the many (and growing) instruments. I just want to reiterate, so no one gets the wrong impression, that there are quite a few already!

More to the point: the soft instruments currently available to composers/performers have gotten wide enough to encompass *most* of the synthesis/sampler paradigms for creating sounds. Additive, subtractive, granular, sample-based, romplers, FM... One doesn't necessarily need to keep duplicating. I've got 6 instruments that can be tuned to any scale/tuning I want, and they cover the gamut. More in the future will bring differing GUIs, methodologies, etc. but at this point...

...there is no excuse. If anyone wanted to at least *hear* the microtonal music they've been wanting to create, they can. Impediments that were there even 5 years ago are gone. Whether this is where you make your stand, or a starting place for transferring on to acoustic or other means, there just is no reason to not do it. The financial investment is FAR less than at any time previous in home/personal recording, and for anyone who has been in this for a while it is frankly an embarrassment of riches. I'm glad I hung around!

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Rick McGowan <rick@...>

"Joe" wrote:

> http://microtonal-synthesis.com lists lots of microtonal soft synths:

Thanks for consoliating the list of synths using ".tun" files. I think
it's a pretty impressive list.

> vaz plus (70$), 2001 (175$), modular (350$);

Of these 3 from Software Technology: for serious VSTi work, only Vaz
Modular (3.0 or later) is really worth getting as a host. I use it a lot
and have never had trouble with its hosting capability. I also have VAZ
2001 but basically never use it.

> big tick angelina (51$), rainbow (89$), rhino (128$);

Of these 3 from Big Tick: Rainbow is basically obsolete: get Rhino.
Angelina does some filter stuff that Rhino doesn't do (formant filters), so
it's also worth a look. I have all 3 products.

Also worth a look (as I keep saying) is the latest Fractal Tune Smithy:
used as a relay it can make *any* VSTi that responds properly to pitch-bend
into a fully workable microtonal synth using ".tun" files.

Rick

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Rick,

{you wrote...}
>Also worth a look (as I keep saying) is the latest Fractal Tune Smithy: used as a relay it can make *any* VSTi that responds properly to pitch-bend into a fully workable microtonal synth using ".tun" files.

I'm going to write Robert privately as well, but here is a public plea: Robert! You've already got code-base to do retuning on the fly - go the small extra mile to wrap it up as a VST effect, so that it could simply be plugged into any VST host/sequencer environment! I am *certain* that you could even release this as a commercial product, if maybe just at modest cost, and it would be SOOOOOOO much easier to utilize the wide array of instruments available in this configuration. And then one wouldn't have to mess with all the midi/audio routing. I really do think this is the next step, and highly encourage you to follow this path.

In fact, Robert, if you would be willing to do this (and list member Magnus Johnson, who has a lot of cred with VST effects wrting, might be able to offer insights) - really, if you would consider this - I would consider personally funding your effort to some degree. Actual financial support!

There, I've said it.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:

Arrgh. Easier for some people, perhaps. I hope midi stays, whatever
else happens.

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Gene,

{you wrote...}
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@...> wrote:
>Arrgh. Easier for some people, perhaps. I hope midi stays, whatever else happens.

Hey, I'm not asking for him to stop what he has, so don't worry. And don't be confused: it is still midi. I'm just asking for a tool in a format that more (and more) people are using. It won't be any different in terms of affecting the midi stream.

Some day, Gene, you'll see some of the value in this. I hope! I sure wish we lived in the same area - I guarantee, if someone could just sit down with you for 10 minutes you'd see that there isn't anything to fear from these other methodologies. I'm not saying you'd prefer them, by any means (any more than you would expect traditional musicians to adopt Maple as a regular music work-tool), but I think it would de-mystify a lot of it.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Joe <tamahome02000@...>

I don't think midi vst effects work in too many hosts, except cubase &
bidule. I can't get it to work in ableton live. Tobybear has a
microtuner plugin in the midibag that does a similar thing. Isn't
there a beta FTS that works as a vst?

Joe

> I'm going to write Robert privately as well, but here is a public
plea: Robert! You've already got code-base to do retuning on the fly -
go the small extra mile to wrap it up as a VST effect, so that it
could simply be plugged into any VST host/sequencer environment! I am
*certain* that you could even release this as a commercial product, if
maybe just at modest cost, and it would be SOOOOOOO much easier to
utilize the wide array of instruments available in this configuration.
And then one wouldn't have to mess with all the midi/audio routing. I
really do think this is the next step, and highly encourage you to
follow this path.
>
> In fact, Robert, if you would be willing to do this (and list member
Magnus Johnson, who has a lot of cred with VST effects wrting, might
be able to offer insights) - really, if you would consider this - I
would consider personally funding your effort to some degree. Actual
financial support!
>
> There, I've said it.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Joe,

{you wrote...}
>I don't think midi vst effects work in too many hosts, except cubase &
>bidule.

Seem to work in Sonar and energyXT as well, probably FL Studio but I don't use that.

>Tobybear has a microtuner plugin in the midibag that does a similar thing.

Does not work correctly. I've verified this, and it has too many bugs, especially for any tuning > 12 notes per octave.

>Isn't there a beta FTS that works as a vst?

Hmmm, that would be interesting. I'm mainly just trying to find a solution that works *inside* the composing environment, not *outside* of it. If I had a VST midi retuning widget, all my activity would take place, in plain sight, inside of my sequencer/DAW architecture. That just *has* to be better for workflow, methinks.

But again, as I said to Gene, I wouldn't expect Robert to drop external support, I just think if he could wrap the midi retuning code in another layer, he could broaden his user base for this kind of music work.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Rick Taylor <rtaylor@...>

From: Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>>That really seems like a lot of hassle just to convert a midi file.
>>If you've got sonar3pro you've already got
>> http://www.maz-sound.de/db/phorum/read.php?f=27&i=1939&t=1889&v=f
>
>Jeez, that sounds horrible.

What's that? The sampler sounds pretty nice.

>>Try CUBE
>> http://www.virsyn.de/en/E_Home/e_home.html }
>
>I have it, but I've never tried it.

It's got a {not tiny} learning curve. You might try Tera2 for something a bit
less specific.

You could just use whatever basic GM synth ships with your version of Sonar.
Just to get you feet wet so to speak. There are a lot of options there. You
might just try getting any sort of sound out of the thing before you start
getting all complicated about things.

Just select a midi track, import your midi file, insert a synth from
insert/dxi synth, then set the output and channel on the side of your midi
track to the appropriate setting {you may have to mess around with the bank,
depending on your synth. You may have to mess around with several settings
depending on how your machine is set up}, hit the play arrow and hopefully it
will work.

If you bring up view/synth rack you'll get a listing of the synths you have
inserted. If you double click on the number of the synth in the list or on the
icon next to output next to the track it will bring up the actual synth and
you can mess with the pre-sets and settings and so on. Once you have things
sounding the way you want them to... just export the audio.

I don't mean that to be insulting. I don't know how practiced you are.

>> http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=2908
>
>Wow, this is news. Great!!
>
>>If you just want to convert your midi file:
>> http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/cat/MIDI_CONVERTERS/
>
>This looks like the same links I posted earlier.

Some of them work. Some of them don't. I just use Sonar.

>>What part of the music industry did you work in?
>
>Advertising. I mean, Keyboard magazine.
>
>-Carl

You mean the industry that supports music?

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>>>That really seems like a lot of hassle just to convert a midi file.
>>>If you've got sonar3pro you've already got
>>> http://www.maz-sound.de/db/phorum/read.php?f=27&i=1939&t=1889&v=f
>>
>>Jeez, that sounds horrible.
>
>What's that? The sampler sounds pretty nice.

No, I mean the account you linked to sounds terrible. And apparently
the thing is limited to 12-tone scales.

>>>Try CUBE
>>> http://www.virsyn.de/en/E_Home/e_home.html }
>>
>>I have it, but I've never tried it.
>
>It's got a {not tiny} learning curve.

Unlike all the other music software out there...

>I don't mean that to be insulting. I don't know how practiced you are.

I've been using Cakewalk since version 5, and when Sonar 1
came out I gave up and uninstalled it.

>>>What part of the music industry did you work in?
>>
>>Advertising. I mean, Keyboard magazine.
>
>You mean the industry that supports music?

I worked for Keyboard magazine. It's functionally part of the
industry that makes musical instruments, sheet music, and recordings.
I transcribed music, reviewed recordings, made demos, reviewed
musical instruments, and worked with manufacturers to make
products better.

-Carl

🔗Rick Taylor <rtaylor@...>

Carl Lumma <ekin@...>,

> >>>That really seems like a lot of hassle just to convert a midi file.
> >>>If you've got sonar3pro you've already got
> >>> http://www.maz-sound.de/db/phorum/read.php?f=27&i=1939&t=1889&v=f
> >>
> >>Jeez, that sounds horrible.
> >
> >What's that? The sampler sounds pretty nice.
>
> No, I mean the account you linked to sounds terrible. And apparently
> the thing is limited to 12-tone scales.

The account concerns the beta of v3.1. The current version is 3.52.

There's a message towards the end of that thread in which a person displays
the results of a 43 tone scale. Apparently only some users are limited by it.
I tend to think that many of those problems are "user specific" and I've seen
many similar threads that were simply political in nature. My experience with
vs3 has been nothing but positive. The easiest way to see if it will work for
you would be to download the demo and try it.

> >>>Try CUBE
> >>> http://www.virsyn.de/en/E_Home/e_home.html }
> >>
> >>I have it, but I've never tried it.
> >
> >It's got a {not tiny} learning curve.
>
> Unlike all the other music software out there...

Some of it has very little learning curve. Some of it has a learning curve
that's relative to ones experience with other music software. I generally have
very little problem picking up a new synth. Cube has a huge wealth of features
that are pretty specific to cube. I had to read the manual to find out how to
import/convert .wav files and it took me a lot of practice to be able to make
the sounds I wanted from them. The program has enough functionality to enable
a user to make just about any sound they can conceive. They're not going to do
it on day one of working with the thing. It may not have features that are
specific to what you're wanting to do. Tera 3 has a lot of different synthesis
types. It supports microtuning, sounds wonderful and has enough depth that
it's unlikely to be lacking a feature you'll be wanting.

> >I don't mean that to be insulting. I don't know how practiced you are.
>
> I've been using Cakewalk since version 5, and when Sonar 1
> came out I gave up and uninstalled it.

I picked up Sonar 1 fairly easily. My experience prior to that had been with
shareware and freeware or linux applications. I think the program's easy to
use. I've not used anything after version 3 aside from the demo of v4. I don't
know if v5 has somehow become difficult. I've not used it.

> >>>What part of the music industry did you work in?
> >>
> >>Advertising. I mean, Keyboard magazine.
> >
> >You mean the industry that supports music?
>
> I worked for Keyboard magazine. It's functionally part of the
> industry that makes musical instruments, sheet music, and recordings.
> I transcribed music, reviewed recordings, made demos, reviewed
> musical instruments, and worked with manufacturers to make
> products better.

The music industry makes music and sells it. The keyboard industry makes
instruments that enable that. At any rate, your experience has apparently not
taught you how to render a midi file in Sonar. You wanted to convert a midi
file. You have Sonar. Sonar is wonderfully suited to rendering midi files.
There are a large number of freeware and shareware apps available that will do
that as well. I've used several of them. Several of them worked very nicely
for me. They vary from version to version and frankly I've not used any of
them in years. I can't tell you which ones are appropriate to what you want to
do. You would have to try them yourself to know that. I can help you convert a
midi file in Sonar.

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Rick Taylor <rtaylor@...>

> From: Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>>At any rate, your experience has apparently not
>>taught you how to render a midi file in Sonar.
>
>I've done it in Cubase and Nuendo.

If you've got Cubase or Nuendo you could use them. The process isn't all that
different. It is a little more complex in Nuendo.

>>I can help you convert a midi file in Sonar.
>
>Thanks, I may take you up on that. On the other hand,
>I'm sure I could figure it out, but I'm not looking
>forward to it. First, you have to install a 3493042 MB
>application, which is 3493041 MBs too many...

:} Sonar is massively efficient at around version 3. I don't see any reason
for that to have changed. Not a lot of those megabytes are going to be wasted.
It does offer a lot more functionality than the simple rendering of midi
files. If you just spend a little bit of time with it I'm sure you'll find
that it's usable. You may even find that you like it. Many other people have.

Virsyn's synths are just the most amazing things to use, as are several by
Native Instruments and Cakewalk and if you look around at KVRAudio I'm sure
you'll find a lot of others. Don't skip over the free ones. Some of them are
as good as the pricey editions.

If you just set them up and fiddle a bit you may find yourself pretty quickly
engrossed in "rendering midi files". I described the basic process, step by
step, just a few posts back. That's really all there is to it. Of course
you'll probably be wanting to spend a bit of time fiddling with all of the
options.

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

>>>At any rate, your experience has apparently not
>>>taught you how to render a midi file in Sonar.
>>
>>I've done it in Cubase and Nuendo.
>
>If you've got Cubase or Nuendo you could use them.

I don't think you're getting my point, which is just that I
think these products are junk and that I don't enjoy using
them and I'm hoping for an alternative. For now, you read
my other post, you'll see I'm using Audio Compositor, which
I've always liked, but which has been end-of-lifed.

>You may even find that you like it.

Kurt Bigler has a saying, 'people like things after they've
been abused by them enough'. But I'll give it another try.
It does seem to be the way to go on Windows these days.

>Virsyn's synths are just the most amazing things to use,
>as are several by Native Instruments and Cakewalk and if you
>look around at KVRAudio I'm sure you'll find a lot of others.
>Don't skip over the free ones. Some of them are as good as
>the pricey editions.

I've got a ton of free and just about every pay synth made
here on my hard drive...

>That's really all there is to it.

After I get that all set up, the real problem becomes how to
'play' 128 pitches. And that's still only 4 octaves of 31.

-Carl

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

At 06:43 PM 4/11/2006, you wrote:
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
>> For now, you read
>> my other post, you'll see I'm using Audio Compositor, which
>> I've always liked, but which has been end-of-lifed.
>
>Indeed it has, and it is more limited than either Timidity or SynFont
>anyway. You should really set Timidity up; it isn't that hard.

Its main limitations seem to be lack of > 12 tone support, and
uncertain nonoctave support (I need to test it). It's advantages
are its realtime rendering for auditioning, and its many parameters
(I could be wrong, but it doesn't look like Timidity has them)
that let you get a good result. Performance and tuning issues
aside, I think my MMM Day files sound better than any piano
renderings I've heard from Timidity. I am a biased party, of
course.

-Carl