Re: [MMM] Microtonality For Gene

Hello and welcome Jon!

> To save you the trouble of listening to anything NOT "microtonal", only the following three pieces employ non-standard tunings:
>
>
> "Ocean Of Fire" 1/1 12/11 9/8 11/9 5/4 4/3 11/8 3/2 18/11 5/3 11/6 15/8

Not meaning to criticize in any way: Do you prefer 12/11 and 18/11 over 13/12 and 13/8?

I'm currently on a slow dial-up so it'll be hard for me to listen to your music at this time. Sorry about that.

- Magnus Jonsson

On 3/14/06, J.Smith <jsmith9624@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Magnus,
>
> In "Ocean" I wanted a non-Pythagorean JI rationalization of an
> Arabic mode, so I chose 12/11 and 18/11 (150.6 & 852.6) to obtain
> the "neutral second" sound so prevalent in their music. A composer's
> choice based on the musical need of the moment.

I really enjoyed this piece. It's definitely microtonal, but
accessible to the listener. I love that distorted timbre.

The tuning seems closely related to the regular temperament that
tempers out 243/242. Is there a name for this excellent {2,3,11}
temperament? You can temper out 81/80 and get 5s easily too.

> I'd be happy to e-mail you an mp3 file of anything I have, to
> download at your leisure. BTW, please DO criticize my work! How am I
> supposed to continue growing as an artist without feedback? No
> offense will be taken: "What does not kill me, will make me
> stronger." (Nietzsche).
[...]

Well, since you said this, I was kinda expecting a bridge or
something. =) But there's nothing wrong with ambient music, or
whatever you want to call it.

Keenan

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper"
<keenanpepper@...> wrote:

> The tuning seems closely related to the regular temperament that
> tempers out 243/242. Is there a name for this excellent {2,3,11}
> temperament? You can temper out 81/80 and get 5s easily too.

I know of none, but of course it is tempered out in a lot of
lower-rank temperaments, most notably, miracle. Also 11-limit
hemiwuerschmidt, squares (which tempers out 81/80) myna and so forth,
and the rank three temperament "wonder", which removes it and 441/440.

All of these have the basic 243/242 property, which is that a fourth
is composed of two 12/11s and a 9/8. I don't know if tetrachord
dividers have paid attention to that, but if not they probably should;
you get something like a diatonic tetrachord out of it. Also, 9/8 and
12/11 gives an 11/9, and two 9/8 and a 12/11 an 11/8. Sticking two
tetrachords together, we get an octave composed out of four 12/11 and
three 9/8.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:

> Also, 9/8 and
> 12/11 gives an 11/9, and two 9/8 and a 12/11 an 11/8. Sticking two
> tetrachords together, we get an octave composed out of four 12/11 and
> three 9/8.

Evenly arranged, this is the 7-note MOS for the 41&65 temperament,
with generator a neutral third (19/65 octaves tuned to 65edo) which
might be a way of giving the diatonic scale some competition.

>> Also, 9/8 and
>> 12/11 gives an 11/9, and two 9/8 and a 12/11 an 11/8. Sticking two
>> tetrachords together, we get an octave composed out of four 12/11 and
>> three 9/8.
>
>Evenly arranged, this is the 7-note MOS for the 41&65 temperament,
>with generator a neutral third (19/65 octaves tuned to 65edo) which
>might be a way of giving the diatonic scale some competition.

This mode
203.1 350.8 498.5 701.5 849.2 1052.3 2/1
looks like something that must exist in maqam music.

-C.

Keenan Pepper wrote:

> The tuning seems closely related to the regular temperament that
> tempers out 243/242. Is there a name for this excellent {2,3,11}
> temperament? You can temper out 81/80 and get 5s easily too.

I've called it "neutral thirds" and the 7 note scale is "the neutral third diatonic" which is similar to mohajira. I've got a permanently unfinished page about it, using a naming convention I don't use any more:

http://x31eq.com/7plus3.htm

I used the scale for my Thomas Hardy song "Neutral Tones" and there's also a MIDI flute melody out there in one of the pentatonics.

Graham

At 07:30 AM 3/14/2006, you wrote:
>Cousin Gene,
>
> To save you the trouble of listening to anything NOT "microtonal",
>only the following three pieces employ non-standard tunings:
>
>
> "Ocean Of Fire" 1/1 12/11 9/8 11/9 5/4 4/3 11/8 3/2
> 18/11 5/3 11/6 15/8
>
> "Dream In Overdrive" vina tuning of K.S. Subramanian
>(indian-vina3.scl)
>
> " 'Ud & Nay" 'ud: Paul Erlich's 12 of 22-tet
>Pythagorean (12-22a.scl)
> nay: 12 of 24-tet
>
>
> Of the above three, only "'Ud & Nay" is short enough not to bore you.
>
>
> Regards,
> jlsmith

Hi, hate to ask, but I really hate to take on accounts at sites
anymore (I have sooo many). Any chance you could repost these
pieces elsewhere? I'd love to listen.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:
>
> Keenan Pepper wrote:
>
> > The tuning seems closely related to the regular temperament that
> > tempers out 243/242. Is there a name for this excellent {2,3,11}
> > temperament? You can temper out 81/80 and get 5s easily too.
>
> I've called it "neutral thirds" and the 7 note scale is "the neutral
> third diatonic" which is similar to mohajira. I've got a permanently
> unfinished page about it, using a naming convention I don't use any
more:

Somehow I had the impression that "neutral thirds" was the 243/242 and
2401/2400 11-limit version of "breed", with generators of 11/9 and 10/7.

> "Ocean Of Fire" 1/1 12/11 9/8 11/9 5/4 4/3 11/8 3/2
> 18/11 5/3 11/6 15/8

This is and Xenophon1 are definitely my favorites so far.

> "Dream In Overdrive" vina tuning of K.S. Subramanian
>(indian-vina3.scl)

n1ce!

> " 'Ud & Nay" 'ud: Paul Erlich's 12 of 22-tet
>Pythagorean (12-22a.scl)
> nay: 12 of 24-tet

Sounds like there's some clipping on the flute.

-Carl

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> Somehow I had the impression that "neutral thirds" was the 243/242 and
> 2401/2400 11-limit version of "breed", with generators of 11/9 and 10/7.

That's the 7-limit neutral-thirds lattice. It's a simplification of the 7-limit lattice by tempering out 2401:2400, to give exact neutral thirds approximating 49:40 and something or other. As you have neutral thirds, you can interpret them as 11:9, making it an 11-limit planar temperament. You get the neutral thirds scale/family/whatever as a one-dimensional slice.

Graham

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:

> > Somehow I had the impression that "neutral thirds" was the 243/242 and
> > 2401/2400 11-limit version of "breed", with generators of 11/9 and
10/7.
>
> That's the 7-limit neutral-thirds lattice.

Well, with just 2401/2400 it is--what I call the "breed lattice" after
some guy of that name. If you call it neutral thirds you are calling a
lot of different things neutral thirds, and you could with equally
good logic call 2401/2400 and 5120/5103 taken together neutral thirds.
How about "neutral thirds" for 11-limit 41&58? I think that has
everything you want in it.