[MMM] Halberstadt

I don't argue that for playing in 12-tet, or any meantone-derived 12
note scale, the Halberstadt keyboard is a great arrangement. But I
find no end of frustration trying to play other scales on my MIDI
controller, even when I'm using a scale with only 12 notes. A
fret-like MIDI controller, without the raised keys, would be my first
choice, but I've been wondering about other options.

I've seen two different layouts for 19-tet, one with smaller keys
placed on top of the Halberstadt layout, another with only two key
sizes. Most higher-order keyboards I've seen have used some sort of
lattice layout. I also saw a picture of a Bohlen-Pierce keyboard with
sets of two raised keys, instead of sets of two and three.

I believe Partch had organs with three octave keyboards to play only
one octave, and stickers on each key indicated the pitch that key
played. This seems unduly cumbersome. On Young's piano, some keys were
in non-ascending order to preserve the distance between fifths and
sevenths, but this is similarly dissatisfactory.

What are the advantages/disadvantages of different keyboards? Is there
any agreed-upon layout for any higher order scales?

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

Do you know this? :
http://www.bikexprt.com/music/bosanqet.htm

I've attached also a layout I am planning for a 19-EDO glass marimba.

Best,
Hudson

Rozencrantz the Sane escreveu:
> I don't argue that for playing in 12-tet, or any meantone-derived 12
> note scale, the Halberstadt keyboard is a great arrangement. But I
> find no end of frustration trying to play other scales on my MIDI
> controller, even when I'm using a scale with only 12 notes. A
> fret-like MIDI controller, without the raised keys, would be my first
> choice, but I've been wondering about other options.
[...]
> What are the advantages/disadvantages of different keyboards? Is there
> any agreed-upon layout for any higher order scales?
>
> --TRISTAN
> (http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hudson Lacerda escreveu:
> I've attached also a layout I am planning for a 19-EDO glass marimba.

Sorry, this list doesn't allow attachments.
Look at here:

http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/marimba-19k.png
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/marimba-19t.png

Hudson

--
'-------------------------------------------------------------------.
Hudson Lacerda <http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/>
*N�o deixe seu voto sumir! http://www.votoseguro.org/
*Ap�ie o Manifesto: http://www.votoseguro.com/alertaprofessores/

== THE WAR IN IRAQ COSTS ==
http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182
.-------------------------------------------------------------------'
--

_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Gr�tis - Internet r�pida e gr�tis. Instale o discador agora!
http://br.acesso.yahoo.com

Thank you. I had not seen this before. I assume it is adaptable to
macrotonal (<12) and non-octave scales as well?

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Do you know this? :
> http://www.bikexprt.com/music/bosanqet.htm
>
> I've attached also a layout I am planning for a 19-EDO glass
marimba.
>
> Best,
> Hudson
>
>
> Rozencrantz the Sane escreveu:
> > I don't argue that for playing in 12-tet, or any meantone-derived
12
> > note scale, the Halberstadt keyboard is a great arrangement. But I
> > find no end of frustration trying to play other scales on my MIDI
> > controller, even when I'm using a scale with only 12 notes. A
> > fret-like MIDI controller, without the raised keys, would be my
first
> > choice, but I've been wondering about other options.
> [...]
> > What are the advantages/disadvantages of different keyboards? Is
there
> > any agreed-upon layout for any higher order scales?
> >
> > --TRISTAN
> > (http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

http://www.geocities.com/threesixesinarow/onthethe.htm
http://www.geocities.com/threesixesinarow/hindoo.htm

> http://www.geocities.com/threesixesinarow/hindoo.htm

Hell, Clark, I had to get this on microfilm on interlibrary
loan from someplace in England. Where did you find it?

http://www.geocities.com/threesixesinarow/index.htm

Wow, whatta collection!

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:

> I've seen two different layouts for 19-tet, one with smaller keys
> placed on top of the Halberstadt layout, another with only two key
> sizes.

I've suggested split white keys, but I'm told that's a crazy idea.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> > http://www.geocities.com/threesixesinarow/hindoo.htm
>
> Hell, Clark, I had to get this on microfilm on interlibrary
> loan from someplace in England. Where did you find it?
>

French National Library, http://gallica.bnf.fr/

> http://www.geocities.com/threesixesinarow/index.htm
>
> Wow, whatta collection!
>
> -Carl
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
> <rozencrantz@> wrote:
>
> > I've seen two different layouts for 19-tet, one with smaller keys
> > placed on top of the Halberstadt layout, another with only two
key
> > sizes.
>
> I've suggested split white keys, but I'm told that's a crazy idea.
>
++++++++++++++Gene and Tristan

Do you mean just using the white keys?

In my endless efforts to master 15, I use a poster board strip
across the keyboard. It is color-coded.
I use all the keys, black and white. Obviously
things don't line up the same way twice.

If one wants to fully master 19 it would take a considerable
time also. (I do have a bad memory though.)

One idea, if you wish to use just the white keys, would be to
use a strip of poster board and color-code it. I don't have
the notes lined up in a spectrum... which might make sense.

Going this route to the max, you could have the white keys
themselves
be color-coded. It might not be possible or easy, but it would
be more professional.

Also, you could, if you know what chords are going to be used
for a given piece,
use a foot controller. A given individual pedal could
be such and such a major or minor chord. This would give you a
edge, as far a playing using your hands goes. Your feet would be
doing some of the work.

Stephen Szpak

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
> <genewardsmith@> wrote:

> > I've suggested split white keys, but I'm told that's a crazy idea.

> Do you mean just using the white keys?

You can make the black keys all flat: Db, Eb, Gb, Ab and Bb. Then
split the white keys vertically, C and C#, D and D# and so forth up to
B and B#. You now have a quasi-Halberstadt 19-et keyboard, running
from Gb to B#.

On 3/9/06, Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...> wrote:

> You can make the black keys all flat: Db, Eb, Gb, Ab and Bb. Then
> split the white keys vertically, C and C#, D and D# and so forth up to
> B and B#. You now have a quasi-Halberstadt 19-et keyboard, running
> from Gb to B#.

That sounds like the best layout I've seen so far. Perhaps raise the #
keys some (maybe between the black and the white, the spacing on a
full size piano leaves plenty of room) and recolor them (red?). That
would be a keyboard I could get behind

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
> On 3/9/06, Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> > You can make the black keys all flat: Db, Eb, Gb, Ab and Bb. Then
> > split the white keys vertically, C and C#, D and D# and so forth
up to
> > B and B#. You now have a quasi-Halberstadt 19-et keyboard, running
> > from Gb to B#.
>
> That sounds like the best layout I've seen so far. Perhaps raise the
#
> keys some (maybe between the black and the white, the spacing on a
> full size piano leaves plenty of room) and recolor them (red?). That
> would be a keyboard I could get behind
>
> --TRISTAN
> (http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

/makemicromusic/files/Danny's%20Junk%
20Drawer%202/key-19.PNG
>

On 3/10/06, threesixesinarow <CACCOLA@...> wrote:

> /makemicromusic/files/Danny's%20Junk%
> 20Drawer%202/key-19.PNG

Not quite what I had in mind. With the sharp keys there, you have to
reach past them to get to the white keys. Also, playing those keys
looks cumbersome.

Place the red keys on top of the white keys, in between the black keys

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/rozencrantz/nineteen.png

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:

> Place the red keys on top of the white keys, in between the black keys
>
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/rozencrantz/nineteen.png

That's my proposal exactly. Not being a keyboardist, I don't know if
it would help to offset the red keys.

At 12:01 PM 3/10/2006, you wrote:
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
><rozencrantz@...> wrote:
>
>> Place the red keys on top of the white keys, in between the black keys
>>
>> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/rozencrantz/nineteen.png
>
>That's my proposal exactly. Not being a keyboardist, I don't know if
>it would help to offset the red keys.

I'm sure it would be playable, but it would negate current
classical technique, which depends on moving the hands in
and out of the keys -- using the full length of the keys.

-Carl

>> Place the red keys on top of the white keys, in between the black keys
>>
>> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v423/rozencrantz/nineteen.png
>
>That's my proposal exactly. Not being a keyboardist, I don't know if
>it would help to offset the red keys.

It also does nothing to redress the lack of symmetry in the
halberstadt design.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:

> I'm sure it would be playable, but it would negate current
> classical technique, which depends on moving the hands in
> and out of the keys -- using the full length of the keys.

Do you think putting the red and white keys side would be better?

At 04:59 PM 3/10/2006, you wrote:
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
>> I'm sure it would be playable, but it would negate current
>> classical technique, which depends on moving the hands in
>> and out of the keys -- using the full length of the keys.
>
>Do you think putting the red and white keys side would be better?

Side by side? Probably, yes.

-Carl

On 3/10/06, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:

> It also does nothing to redress the lack of symmetry in the
> halberstadt design.

Is that a bad thing? I find it makes learning to navigate the keyboard easier.

I did some experimenting on my piano today, but I found that it was
very difficult to play a chord with both red and white notes in it,
and I had to bend my fingers in unnatural positions to reach them.

--TRISTAN
(http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)

>> It also does nothing to redress the lack of symmetry in the
>> halberstadt design.
>
>Is that a bad thing? I find it makes learning to navigate the
>keyboard easier.

I used to play devil's advocate with this argument against
George Secor. I now think it just makes navigating harder,
since completely new patterns must be learned for each key.
It's easy to forget how long this took to learn... even today,
I'm stronger in some keys than others.

For position-finding, I do think textured keytops are a good
idea. But I play stride without looking or feeling. Squeeze
box players also do some fancy stuff over rows of identical
buttons without a peek (they often have a single textured button).

>I did some experimenting on my piano today, but I found that it was
>very difficult to play a chord with both red and white notes in it,
>and I had to bend my fingers in unnatural positions to reach them.

Right. Generalized designs don't solve this problem, but at least
they make the difficult positions the same for every chord.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Rozencrantz the Sane"
<rozencrantz@...> wrote:

Tristan

Have you ever tried to take certain notes of 19 and
stick them into the standard 12 note format? Not ideal,
but a quick fix. Maybe three 3-note chords of 19, in the
12 note keyboard format we all know.

With a spliting of the keyboard, this could give 6 chords.

Stephen

>>
> I did some experimenting on my piano today, but I found that it was
> very difficult to play a chord with both red and white notes in it,
> and I had to bend my fingers in unnatural positions to reach them.
>
> --TRISTAN
> (http://dreamingofeden.smackjeeves.com/)
>