Scores

Here is a web page with some of my Scala seq scores on it:

http://www.xenharmony.org/scores.htm

Using these, people can fiddle with the sequencing, change the
instruments around, and play things backwards if they want. I'd be
interested to see if Carl can come up with something he likes better
for some of these.

If anyone can figure out how to translate a Scala score into something
anyone might want to perform, that would nice, but I won't hold my
breath.

At 11:39 PM 2/5/2006, you wrote:
>Here is a web page with some of my Scala seq scores on it:
>
>http://www.xenharmony.org/scores.htm
>
>Using these, people can fiddle with the sequencing, change the
>instruments around, and play things backwards if they want. I'd be
>interested to see if Carl can come up with something he likes better
>for some of these.
>
>If anyone can figure out how to translate a Scala score into
>something anyone might want to perform, that would nice, but I won't
>hold my breath.

Is the last piece called Cromosound or Chromosounds?

You ought to make whatever tools you used to create these available
also, or at least tell us how they work. I'm guessing you didn't
enter them by hand...

Probably my approach would be to transform them to MIDI with
Scala, open them in a score editor, and go from there. Working
with off-the-shelf score editors, I would want to first cast
the files into 12-equal somehow, and then add accidentals.

On the other hand, it might be easiest to transcribe them by
hand from the sound file. I'd want a wysiwyg 46-tET score
editor with microtonal playback for that.

Hey, I notice this version of Scala has a 'render with Timidity'
option. But it fails when I try it... I assume one must have
Timidity installed. I wonder if Manuel could add Timidity into
Scala. That would be a boon for those of us who find Timidity
obtuse.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:

> Is the last piece called Cromosound or Chromosounds?

Chromosounds seems better.

> You ought to make whatever tools you used to create these available
> also, or at least tell us how they work. I'm guessing you didn't
> enter them by hand...

No, I used Maple. However, what I do with Maple varies from piece to
piece.

> Probably my approach would be to transform them to MIDI with
> Scala, open them in a score editor, and go from there. Working
> with off-the-shelf score editors, I would want to first cast
> the files into 12-equal somehow, and then add accidentals.

Are you talking about what you'd do if you wanted a printed score?

> On the other hand, it might be easiest to transcribe them by
> hand from the sound file. I'd want a wysiwyg 46-tET score
> editor with microtonal playback for that.

Be nice if someone made such things.

> Hey, I notice this version of Scala has a 'render with Timidity'
> option. But it fails when I try it... I assume one must have
> Timidity installed. I wonder if Manuel could add Timidity into
> Scala. That would be a boon for those of us who find Timidity
> obtuse.

Timidity is very obtuse, but I thought I've explained a few times how
to use it under Windows. With any luck, you can get it working with
Linux, which is its native environment. Where do you have Timidity
installed?

Do you have a nice sf2 GM soundfont? That's pretty essential to the
process.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> Here is a web page with some of my Scala seq scores on it:
>
> http://www.xenharmony.org/scores.htm

I've added an older version of Bodacious; I can't seem to find the one
I used for the ogg file. :(

>> Is the last piece called Cromosound or Chromosounds?
>
>Chromosounds seems better.

I'm changing it everywhere here. I suggest you do the same
on your end.

>> You ought to make whatever tools you used to create these available
>> also, or at least tell us how they work. I'm guessing you didn't
>> enter them by hand...
>
>No, I used Maple. However, what I do with Maple varies from piece to
>piece.

I can see the use of tempo changes in Choraled differs from in
Nonagenta...

>> Probably my approach would be to transform them to MIDI with
>> Scala, open them in a score editor, and go from there. Working
>> with off-the-shelf score editors, I would want to first cast
>> the files into 12-equal somehow, and then add accidentals.
>
>Are you talking about what you'd do if you wanted a printed score?

Right. You'll need one if you want a real string quartet to
play it.

>> On the other hand, it might be easiest to transcribe them by
>> hand from the sound file. I'd want a wysiwyg 46-tET score
>> editor with microtonal playback for that.
>
>Be nice if someone made such things.

Yessiree.

>> Hey, I notice this version of Scala has a 'render with Timidity'
>> option. But it fails when I try it... I assume one must have
>> Timidity installed. I wonder if Manuel could add Timidity into
>> Scala. That would be a boon for those of us who find Timidity
>> obtuse.
>
>Timidity is very obtuse, but I thought I've explained a few times how
>to use it under Windows. With any luck, you can get it working with
>Linux, which is its native environment. Where do you have Timidity
>installed?

Nowhere, and the only place I'm willing to install it is in
Windows, and yes you've explained it, but if I need to spend an
hour to install a piece of software, I really get discouraged.

>Do you have a nice sf2 GM soundfont? That's pretty essential to the
>process.

Yes. But last I checked Timidity could only load them via some
hack.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
> >> Is the last piece called Cromosound or Chromosounds?
> >
> >Chromosounds seems better.
>
> I'm changing it everywhere here. I suggest you do the same
> on your end.

Not sure what that means, but I did change the web pages.

> >> You ought to make whatever tools you used to create these available
> >> also, or at least tell us how they work. I'm guessing you didn't
> >> enter them by hand...
> >
> >No, I used Maple. However, what I do with Maple varies from piece to
> >piece.
>
> I can see the use of tempo changes in Choraled differs from in
> Nonagenta...

Yeah, I tried various things. Other tools are Nytonyx and Sibelius.

> Where do you have Timidity
> >installed?
>
> Nowhere, and the only place I'm willing to install it is in
> Windows, and yes you've explained it, but if I need to spend an
> hour to install a piece of software, I really get discouraged.

You don't need an hour. Timidity is an extremely easy install under
Windows; the difficulty with it is that the thing is not documented.

> >Do you have a nice sf2 GM soundfont? That's pretty essential to the
> >process.
>
> Yes. But last I checked Timidity could only load them via some
> hack.

No, it's very easy to get Timidity to load them. It's just next to
impossible to find out *how* to get Timidity to load them, because of
the documentation problem. But the whole thing is really dead easy,
once you know how.

At 01:10 AM 2/6/2006, you wrote:
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>>
>> >> Is the last piece called Cromosound or Chromosounds?
>> >
>> >Chromosounds seems better.
>>
>> I'm changing it everywhere here. I suggest you do the same
>> on your end.
>
>Not sure what that means, but I did change the web pages.

Filenames, metadata, etc.

>>> Where do you have Timidity installed?
>>
>> Nowhere, and the only place I'm willing to install it is in
>> Windows, and yes you've explained it, but if I need to spend an
>> hour to install a piece of software, I really get discouraged.
>
>You don't need an hour. Timidity is an extremely easy install under
>Windows; the difficulty with it is that the thing is not documented.

I suppose I could look at it again...

-C.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:

> >You don't need an hour. Timidity is an extremely easy install under
> >Windows; the difficulty with it is that the thing is not documented.
>
> I suppose I could look at it again...

It's one of those things where you just download it and unzip in a
directory; it doesn't use an installer and doesn't need no stinkin'
dlls. You do need a GM sf2 (forget the stuff they try to tell you
about Gravis) and your config file needs to tell Timidity where the
soundfont is.

Hi Gene and others,

Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
> > If anyone can figure out how to translate a Scala score into something
> anyone might want to perform, that would nice, but I won't hold my
> breath.

I find this very very very strange, because your pieces are typically instrumental rather than electronic. In my point-of-view, those MIDI files are only simulations to help composing and studying the pieces, just for "prelistening". Without scores, how to play/listen to the real music?

You mentioned Maple in another message. Is it similar to GNU Octave or Matlab? If so, you could write a program to generate the scores in a textual music notation (abc, lilypond, guido, clm, mup...), beside scale sequence format. That way, you could get printable scores automatically. Of course, you will need to check some technical matters: which languages support custom accidentals, how much complex is the syntax etc.

My personal solution was to write microabc and use ABC notation <http://abcnotation.org> <http://abcplus.sourceforge.net>. Score and MIDI simulation are generated from the same source file. Here is a sample:

Definition of scale and macros:
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/24et.txt
Source of music:
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/24et.abp.txt
Output score:
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/24et.ps
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/24et.pdf
Output MIDI (using Standard MIDI Tuning):
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/24et.mid

In that specific sample source (and according to the macro definitions in 24et.txt), pitches are represented by the letters A-G between brackets [ and ], using the accidentals:
+ 1/4 tone sharp
- 1/4 tone flat
^ semitone sharp
_ semitone flat
^+ 3/4 tone sharp
_- 3/4 tone flat

I wrote microabc under GNU/Linux, but I think the C code will compile in whatever system. Just remember to convert the line terminations, unzip'ing the archive with `unzip -a <name>' (a future version will support all Unix/DOS/MacOS end-of-line conventions).

http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc.zip

Regards,
Hudson Lacerda

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--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>
wrote:

> I find this very very very strange, because your pieces are typically
> instrumental rather than electronic. In my point-of-view, those MIDI
> files are only simulations to help composing and studying the pieces,
> just for "prelistening". Without scores, how to play/listen to the real
> music?

I guess just use your imagination.

> You mentioned Maple in another message. Is it similar to GNU Octave or
> Matlab? If so, you could write a program to generate the scores in a
> textual music notation (abc, lilypond, guido, clm, mup...), beside
scale
> sequence format.

I do have actual scores, in the form of Scala seq files. Is there some
reason one of these would be better?

Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>
> wrote:
> > > I find this very very very strange, because your pieces are typically
> > instrumental rather than electronic. In my point-of-view, those MIDI
> > files are only simulations to help composing and studying the pieces,
> > just for "prelistening". Without scores, how to play/listen to the real
> > music?
> > I guess just use your imagination.

Thanks for considering listeners' imagination :-)
and for saving performers' time... :-\

(What a shame... Honest, Gene, you have interesting compositions that could sound great on real instruments! Would you not like?)

> > > You mentioned Maple in another message. Is it similar to GNU Octave or
> > Matlab? If so, you could write a program to generate the scores in a
> > textual music notation (abc, lilypond, guido, clm, mup...), beside
> scale
> > sequence format.
> > I do have actual scores, in the form of Scala seq files. Is there some
> reason one of these would be better?

Well, I find graphical *staff sheet* notation ``just a little bit'' easier to read than Scala seq files... I think many performers also find that.

My suggestion intended to be a helpful response to this:

<<<<
If anyone can figure out how to translate a Scala score into something
anyone might want to perform, that would nice, [...]
>>>>

Regards,
Hudson Lacerda

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--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>
wrote:

> (What a shame... Honest, Gene, you have interesting compositions that
> could sound great on real instruments! Would you not like?)

It would be fine, but I see little prospect of getting people to play
them on these real instruments. I could, I suppose, attempt to taylor
something to that purpose, if someone had something specific in mind,
but producing readble scores is a daunting prospect unless in 19 or
31, which I haven't even worked with in this millenium.

> > I do have actual scores, in the form of Scala seq files. Is there some
> > reason one of these would be better?
>
> Well, I find graphical *staff sheet* notation ``just a little bit''
> easier to read than Scala seq files... I think many performers also
find
> that.

Graphic staff notation with all kinds of weird accidentals? So far, I
haven't even gotten suggestions as to how best to notate 99-edo.

Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
[...]
> Graphic staff notation with all kinds of weird accidentals?

Yes!

At least two pieces of software can do that:

-- lilypond (I don't know how it is done, but it seems be really feasible);

-- abcm2ps (I do use it. I wrote PostScript code for Sagittal 72ET accidental glyphs -- available with microabc package or inside the file fmt.zip from my site)

Moreover, abc2midi has been improved to better support microtonal music.

Cheers,

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--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>
wrote:

> -- abcm2ps (I do use it. I wrote PostScript code for Sagittal 72ET
> accidental glyphs -- available with microabc package or inside the file
> fmt.zip from my site)

Now all I need is scalaseq2abc, and I'd be set. Do you have some
example scores of abc doing the microtonal thing?

Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>
> wrote:
> > >>-- abcm2ps (I do use it. I wrote PostScript code for Sagittal 72ET >>accidental glyphs -- available with microabc package or inside the file >>fmt.zip from my site)
> > > Now all I need is scalaseq2abc, and I'd be set.

;-)

> Do you have some
> example scores of abc doing the microtonal thing?

A few ones. The samples I linked from a previous message were done using ABC. In abc, a note is like ^G (G sharp) or _3/2E (E 3/2 semitone flat). abcm2ps supports quartertone notation nativelly. Other accidental glyphs need to be created as postscript operators.

See:

== abcm2ps ==
sources: <http://moinejf.free.fr>
binaries: <http://abcplus.sf.net#abcm2ps>
See ``sample4.abc'' inside abcm2ps package for the built-in quartertone accidentals.

== PostScript code for Sagittal 72-ET ==
``microtonal.fmt'' inside: <http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/fmt.zip>
See also the sample files ``microtonalexemplo.abc'' and ``microtonalexemplo.ps''.

== microabc ==
My program to cook the microtonal cakes:
<http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc.zip>
Inside the folder ``examples'' you will find... some examples.

== An online example (note guitar accids. vs. clarinet accidentals): ==
<http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/24et.pdf>

== A manual to use PostScript with abcm2ps ==
This is in portuguese, but there are several samples of PS code with the corresponding results:
<http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/decomanual.zip>

All the stuff above is released under GNU-GPL.

Cheers,
Hudson

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--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>
wrote:

> == An online example (note guitar accids. vs. clarinet accidentals): ==
> <http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/24et.pdf>

This isn't what I'm looking for. I wanted to see example ascii files
of 72 equal music written in abc, which could be converted to a
postscript file by abc2ps, not the output of abcs2ps.

Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...>
> wrote:
> > >>== An online example (note guitar accids. vs. clarinet accidentals): ==
>><http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/24et.pdf>
> > > This isn't what I'm looking for. I wanted to see example ascii files
> of 72 equal music written in abc, which could be converted to a
> postscript file by abc2ps, not the output of abcs2ps.

Follow the other links. *All* ABC sources are there.

If you are really eager, visit ``fmt.zip'' first.

``microtonalexemplo.abc'' looks like this (two quartertone representations, then 1/6 tone, then 1/8 tone, and finally, 1/12 tone as Sagittal 72-ET):

======================================================================

%%format microtonal

%%scale 1
%%continueall

X:1
T: Exemplo para `microtonal.fmt'
C:Hudson Lacerda
M:none
L:1/4
K:C
%%center ET-24 (quartos de tom)
"^abcm2ps built-in:;Giuseppe Tartini/M. Couper"
=C ^/C ^C ^3/C =D _/D _D _3/D =C ||
"^custom"
=C ^6/C ^C ^9/C =D _9/D _D _6/D =C |
%%center ET-36 (sextos de tom)
=C =9/C ^6/C ^C ^9/C =6/D =D =6/D _9/D _D _6/D =9/C =C |
%%center ET-48 (oitavos de tom)
=C =9/C ^/C ^6/C \
^C ^9/C ^3/C =6/D \
=D =6/D _/D _9/D \
_D _6/D _3/D =9/C =C |
%%scale 1
T:Sagittal ET-72 (dozeavos de tom)
L:1/8
"1/12"^1/12G^1/12A _1/12G_1/12A |\
"2/12"[^2/12AGB]^2/12A _2/12G_2/12A |\
"3/12"^3/12G^3/12A _3/12G_3/12A |\
"4/12"^4/12G^4/12A _4/12G_4/12A |\
"5/12"^5/12G^5/12A _5/12G_5/12A |
"6/12"^6/12G^6/12A _6/12G_6/12A |
"7/12"^7/12G^7/12A _7/12G_7/12A |
"8/12"^8/12G^8/12A _8/12G_8/12A |
"9/12"^9/12G^9/12A _9/12G_9/12A |
"10/12"^10/12G^10/12A _10/12G_10/12A |
"11/12"^11/12G^11/12A _11/12G_11/12A |
"12/12"^12/12G^12/12A _12/12G_12/12A |

======================================================================

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>> (What a shame... Honest, Gene, you have interesting compositions that
>> could sound great on real instruments! Would you not like?)
>
>It would be fine, but I see little prospect of getting people to play
>them on these real instruments. I could, I suppose, attempt to taylor
>something to that purpose, if someone had something specific in mind,
>but producing readble scores is a daunting prospect unless in 19 or
>31, which I haven't even worked with in this millenium.

I thought you *were* interested in that. Certainly Daniel and I
seemed to be discussing it with you not long ago.

>> > I do have actual scores, in the form of Scala seq files. Is there
>> > some reason one of these would be better?
>>
>> Well, I find graphical *staff sheet* notation ``just a little bit''
>> easier to read than Scala seq files... I think many performers also
>> find that.
>
>Graphic staff notation with all kinds of weird accidentals? So far, I
>haven't even gotten suggestions as to how best to notate 99-edo.

I gave you one.

-Carl

> At least two pieces of software can do that:
>
> -- lilypond (I don't know how it is done, but it seems be really feasible);

Has anyone done more than quarter-tone accidentals in lily? It would
be feasible, but I haven't seen it yet.

btw, for anyone doing stuff in 24, lilypond midi output files with
quarter-tone notation automagically include the 50-cent pitchbends! I
assumes the same could be done for other notation systems, and it
would seem trivial to have the same for any other system, eliminating
the need to re-route through scala. That could be a great solution
for getting human-playable scores with midi practice guides! And with
a decent front-end it could be a great user-friendly one-stop shop for
flexible, extensible microtonal acoustic scoring!

I'm getting way to excited about this, since I know I'll never have
time to implement it... but something like lilypond saggital would be
a great place to start... :)

-chris

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:

> I thought you *were* interested in that. Certainly Daniel and I
> seemed to be discussing it with you not long ago.

Interested in what? At the moment, I'm interested in finding if it is
realistically possible to make a 72 or 99 score in abc, and then
produce a postscript file from that.

> >Graphic staff notation with all kinds of weird accidentals? So far, I
> >haven't even gotten suggestions as to how best to notate 99-edo.
>
> I gave you one.

I don't recall it. What was it?

At 07:11 PM 2/6/2006, you wrote:
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:
>
>> I thought you *were* interested in that. Certainly Daniel and I
>> seemed to be discussing it with you not long ago.
>
>Interested in what? At the moment, I'm interested in finding if it is
>realistically possible to make a 72 or 99 score in abc, and then
>produce a postscript file from that.

Maybe I misread you.

>> >Graphic staff notation with all kinds of weird accidentals? So far, I
>> >haven't even gotten suggestions as to how best to notate 99-edo.
>>
>> I gave you one.
>
>I don't recall it. What was it?

""
For music like this, my generalized-diatonic approach isn't
applicable either. Probably the best bet is a schismatic (58 & 27)
chain-of-fifths notation with 7 nominals and custom accidentals.
But you know more about this facet of notation than I do.
""

-C.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:

> >I don't recall it. What was it?
>
> ""
> For music like this, my generalized-diatonic approach isn't
> applicable either. Probably the best bet is a schismatic (58 & 27)
> chain-of-fifths notation with 7 nominals and custom accidentals.
> But you know more about this facet of notation than I do.
> ""

Ah, I recall. I tend to think that something which allows neutral
thirds to be easily notated would be of use in such a system, since
that's the hemififths generator. Why are yhou calling 58&27
schismatic, by the way?
What does either schismatic or myna have to do with it? 99 supports
neither.

>> >I don't recall it. What was it?
>>
>> ""
>> For music like this, my generalized-diatonic approach isn't
>> applicable either. Probably the best bet is a schismatic (58 & 27)
>> chain-of-fifths notation with 7 nominals and custom accidentals.
>> But you know more about this facet of notation than I do.
>> ""
>
>Ah, I recall. I tend to think that something which allows neutral
>thirds to be easily notated would be of use in such a system, since
>that's the hemififths generator. Why are you calling 58&27
>schismatic, by the way?

I meant, a 58-step fifth in the case of 99 and a 27-step one
in the case of 46. Such fifths support what was called the
schismic temperament, no? I changed to calling it schismatic
after a recent post by someone who claimed to know Greek.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@...> wrote:

> I meant, a 58-step fifth in the case of 99 and a 27-step one
> in the case of 46. Such fifths support what was called the
> schismic temperament, no?

Neither 99 or 46 temper out the schisma, so neither supports
schismatic temperament. The 58 step temperament for 99 is not one of
the better 99-et systems; from that point of view basing things on
hemiwuerschmidt would make sense. That would mean notating a generator
of 28/25, two of which give a major third. Hemififths, which has a
neutral third generator of 49/40 is of course closer to Pythagorean
and therefore probably preferable really. Either way, thirds in this
system are pretty complex, and just using sharps and flats won't cut it.

The 27 steps of 46 temperament is leapday, which is great if you
attach a lot of importance to 46-ets higher-limit abilities. I think
it would make a good basis for a 46 notation system.