Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic New piece: Sublimation

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Dave Seidel <dave@s...> wrote:
>
About 10 years ago I came across some website somewhere
that talked about subliminal sound, and its effect on
a person. It's been a long time but I think the author of
the site said that some sounds can effect one's mood.
I wonder if you ever got into anything like that.
(I realize that subliminal and sublimate are not related words.)

Stephen

____________________________________________________________

> "A drone of varying densities built from layers of complex
> justly-intoned chords with scintillating harmonics."
>
> I made this with Csound 5.0 RC2 (nice!). It has something to do
with La
> Monte Young's Opening, Magic and Magic Opening chords, but it
doesn't
> use those chords literally. No sine waves were harmed in the
making of
> this music.
>
> As always, comments are welcome.
>
> Link: http://mysterybear.net/article/14
>
> - Dave Seidel
> music: http://mysterybear.net
> blog: http://superluminal.com/dave/weblog
>

🔗Dave Seidel <dave@...>

Hi Stephen,

I'm not sure what subliminal sound would be, unless it's sound that isn't heard consciously, but I certainly believe that sound affects one's mood. I also believe that hearing intervals that have never been heard before can elicit feelings that have never been felt before, which is one reason why I'm interested in microtonal music.

One meaning of the word sublimation is when a substance changes from one state to another state without passing through the state in between. For example, when frozen water changes to fog or mist without becoming liquid first. Seeing a lot of that up here in the New Hampshire woods these days.

- Dave

stephenszpak wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Dave Seidel <dave@s...> wrote:
> About 10 years ago I came across some website somewhere
> that talked about subliminal sound, and its effect on
> a person. It's been a long time but I think the author of
> the site said that some sounds can effect one's mood.
> I wonder if you ever got into anything like that. > (I realize that subliminal and sublimate are not related words.)
> > Stephen
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > > > > > >> "A drone of varying densities built from layers of complex >> justly-intoned chords with scintillating harmonics."
>>
>> I made this with Csound 5.0 RC2 (nice!). It has something to do > with La >> Monte Young's Opening, Magic and Magic Opening chords, but it > doesn't >> use those chords literally. No sine waves were harmed in the > making of >> this music.
>>
>> As always, comments are welcome.
>>
>> Link: http://mysterybear.net/article/14
>>
>> - Dave Seidel
>> music: http://mysterybear.net
>> blog: http://superluminal.com/dave/weblog
>>
> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > > >

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Dave Seidel <dave@s...> wrote:
>
Dave

This I believe:

I'm not sure what subliminal sound would be, unless it's sound that
> isn't heard consciously

Maybe I'll get ambitious and find something
someday. (you've probably seen the individual 'burger and soda'
frames inside the movie, to get people to buy
at the refreshment area, maybe it's like that)

Stephen

____________________________________________________________

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:

........In Time magazine, Sept. 10, 1979, an article ran
concerning "Secret Voices." The article mentioned that about 50
department stores in the U.S. and Canada have installed a device
that commingles the music of Musak system broadcasts with subliminal
anti-theft messages ("I am honest. I will not steal. If I do steal,
I will be caught and sent to jail."). The words changed slightly
every now and then, but the basic message remained the same, and
repeated itself 9,000 times every hour. Professor Hal C. Becker
invented the little "black box" to deliver the technique through
speeded up, barely audible messages (2 1/2 times normal speed) in
conjunction with the pleasant background music of the department
store (see U. S. patent no. 3,278,676 by Hal C. Becker). (Using a
Variable Speech Controller (VSC), recorded speech can be speeded up
without increasing the pitch and sounding like Donald Duck.) Results
indicated that theft and internal, inventory shrinkage were actually
reduced by up to 37% in stores using subliminal messages. Using
Becker's "honesty reinforcement and theft deterrent system," one
department store company saved more than half a million dollars in
only 10 months through cutting shoplifting and employee pilferage.
Such success prompted other store chains to order their own secret
installations of the system as well.

http://www.mind-course.com/subliminal.html

Stephen

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:

This is interesting.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/project162.html

"A silent communications system in which nonaural carriers, in the
very low or very high audio-frequency range or in the adjacent
ultrasonic frequency spectrum are amplitude- or frequency-modulated
with the desired intelligence and propagated acoustically or
vibrationally, for inducement into the brain, typically through the
use of loudspeakers, earphones, or piezoelectric transducers. The
modulated carriers may be transmitted directly in real time or may
be conveniently recorded and stored on mechanical, magnetic, or
optical media for delayed or repeated transmission to the listener."

According to literature by Silent Sounds, Inc., it is now possible,
using supercomputers, to analyse human emotional EEG patterns and
replicate them, then store these "emotion signature clusters" on
another computer and, at will, "silently induce and change the
emotional state in a human being".

_____________________________________________________________
http://istina.rin.ru/eng/ufo/text/360.html

As for the sound, a report on the device transmitting a beam of
sound waves, which can hear only persons at whom the beam of sound
waves is targeted, appeared last year in the world newspapers. The
beam is formed by a combination of sound and ultrasound waves which
causes that a person targeted by this beam hears the sound inside of
his head. Such a perception could easily convince the human being
that it is mentally ill.

NOT what I was originally speaking about, but I thought it
was weird enough to include.
___________________________________________________________

Stephen Szpak

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

Hi Stephen,

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 Stephen Szpak wrote:
> This is interesting.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/project162.html
>
> "A silent communications system in which nonaural carriers, in the
> very low or very high audio-frequency range or in the adjacent
> ultrasonic frequency spectrum are amplitude- or frequency-modulated
> with the desired intelligence and propagated acoustically or
> vibrationally, for inducement into the brain, typically through the
> use of loudspeakers, earphones, or piezoelectric transducers. The
> modulated carriers may be transmitted directly in real time or may
> be conveniently recorded and stored on mechanical, magnetic, or
> optical media for delayed or repeated transmission to the listener."
>
> According to literature by Silent Sounds, Inc., it is now possible,
> using supercomputers, to analyse human emotional EEG patterns and
> replicate them, then store these "emotion signature clusters" on
> another computer and, at will, "silently induce and change the
> emotional state in a human being".

Ah, technology! Scary but fun!!!

While most of us would want the police to be
able to use such a tool to quiet a riot, would
we want the politicians to be able to direct
its use to control public protests? Will we
have to go into the streets and shops one day
armed with earplugs to prevent the insidious
onslaught of subliminal propaganda? Are we,
even now, watching television shows that, all
subliminally, say:

"A Big Mac is a _healthy_ start to your day.
Would you like fries with that?"

On a more serious, ahem, note, let me ask you
whether a competent musician doesn't
_already_ use similar (if not identical)
techniques, albeit quite possibly unconsciously,
to alter the emotional states of his or her
listeners?

> _____________________________________________________________
> http://istina.rin.ru/eng/ufo/text/360.html
>
> As for the sound, a report on the device transmitting a beam of
> sound waves, which can hear ....

Surely they meant "... which can be heard by ..."?

> ... only persons at whom the beam of sound
> waves is targeted, appeared last year in the world newspapers. The
> beam is formed by a combination of sound and ultrasound waves which
> causes that a person targeted by this beam hears the sound inside of
> his head. Such a perception could easily convince the human being
> that it is mentally ill.
>
> NOT what I was originally speaking about, but I thought it
> was weird enough to include.

Something similar happened when we first
began to listen to stereo music reproduction,
and the engineers had created totally unreal
stereo sound positioning. It should be fairly
straighforward, since the advent of surround
sound, to make the listener think the sound is
passing right through his head, or to localise it
quite accurately in the listening space. You'd
have to fix the speaker's head position very
accurately to be sure of the effect, though.

Regards,
Yahya

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🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 Stephen Szpak wrote:
>
> ........In Time magazine, Sept. 10, 1979, an article ran
> concerning "Secret Voices." The article mentioned that about 50
> department stores in the U.S. and Canada have installed a device
> that commingles the music of Musak system broadcasts with subliminal
> anti-theft messages ("I am honest. I will not steal. If I do steal,
> I will be caught and sent to jail."). The words changed slightly
> every now and then, but the basic message remained the same, and
> repeated itself 9,000 times every hour. Professor Hal C. Becker
> invented the little "black box" to deliver the technique through
> speeded up, barely audible messages (2 1/2 times normal speed) in
> conjunction with the pleasant background music of the department
> store (see U. S. patent no. 3,278,676 by Hal C. Becker). (Using a
> Variable Speech Controller (VSC), recorded speech can be speeded up
> without increasing the pitch and sounding like Donald Duck.) Results
> indicated that theft and internal, inventory shrinkage were actually
> reduced by up to 37% in stores using subliminal messages. Using
> Becker's "honesty reinforcement and theft deterrent system," one
> department store company saved more than half a million dollars in
> only 10 months through cutting shoplifting and employee pilferage.
> Such success prompted other store chains to order their own secret
> installations of the system as well.
>
>
> http://www.mind-course.com/subliminal.html

Stephen,

And here we've been agonising over how to get people
to listen to and demand microtonal music!

Obviously, our tape goes something like this:
"I am musically adventurous. I will seek out weird
and wonderful new music. If I do not seek out weird
new music, I will not be cool."

Or more specifically,
"I am musically adventurous. I will seek out Dave
Seidel's Sublimation and Drift Dhikr. If I do not
seek out Dave Seidel's music, I will not be cool."

That'll larn 'em! :-)

Regards,
Yahya

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🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 Dave Seidel wrote:
>
> "A drone of varying densities built from layers of complex
> justly-intoned chords with scintillating harmonics."
>
> I made this with Csound 5.0 RC2 (nice!). It has something to do with La
> Monte Young's Opening, Magic and Magic Opening chords, but it doesn't
> use those chords literally. No sine waves were harmed in the making of
> this music.
>
> As always, comments are welcome.
>
> Link: http://mysterybear.net/article/14

Hi Dave,

I like the way the piece builds and varies in intensity.
The sound was surprisingly thinner than I expected,
given that you used so many simultaneous oscillators,
and your "scintillating harmonics" comment had led
me to expect a bit more "sparkle". Yet the whole
piece hangs together quite satisfyingly.

Regards,
Yahya

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🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

> Something similar happened when we first
> began to listen to stereo music reproduction,
> and the engineers had created totally unreal
> stereo sound positioning. It should be fairly
> straighforward, since the advent of surround
> sound, to make the listener think the sound is
> passing right through his head, or to localise it
> quite accurately in the listening space.

Yes... and no. Panning is straightforward, but our psychological
location mechanisms involve much more than level control. It also
depends on things like inter-aural delay and head-related transfer
functions, to name just a couple. Ambisonic encoding is the only
algorithm I know of that accounts for that stuff. It's a lot more
complicated than one might think.

Does any of this have *anything* to do with MMM?

-Chris

--
"... free speech is meaningless if the commercial cacaphony has risen
to the point that no one can hear you." -Naomi Klein

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Dave Seidel <dave@...>

Yahya, thanks for the comments. I'm surprised that it sounds thin to you as well as the lack of sparkle, but it's probably a somewhat subjective thing; I'm probably focused in on the more subtle aspect of the sound. It may be like what I've experienced listening to the music of Phill Niblock, where at first it seems very static, but then you start to notice all the subtle stuff happening in the harmonics. If you didn't listen with headphones, I recommend trying it that way.

Also, I'm accustomed to listening to the WAV file that comes out of Csound, which is is pretty high resolution (48kHz sampling rate, 3072kpbs bitrate, 32-bit samples) compared to the MP3 and OGG encodings.

- Dave

Yahya Abdal-Aziz wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> > I like the way the piece builds and varies in intensity.
> The sound was surprisingly thinner than I expected,
> given that you used so many simultaneous oscillators,
> and your "scintillating harmonics" comment had led > me to expect a bit more "sparkle". Yet the whole > piece hangs together quite satisfyingly.
> > Regards,
> Yahya
>

🔗plopper6 <billwestfall@...>

🔗Dave Seidel <dave@...>

Drones are certainly one way to get "inside" an interval (or set of intervals) in a deeper way. Seem like the faster the music, the less the tuning matters, in a way.

On your other point, I'd go further and say that we hear microtonal things all the time that aren't necessary deliberate, whether it stems from "mis"-tuning or from combining different thing, e.g., in mashups and remixes.

plopper6 wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Dave Seidel <dave@s...> wrote:
>> "A drone of varying densities built from layers of complex >> justly-intoned chords with scintillating harmonics."
>> ....
>>
>> Link: http://mysterybear.net/article/14
>> ...
> > I like that a lot. Seems that drone is a perfect vehicle for > getting across what microtonal is all about. > Although I'll bet a lot of drone/noise artists are using microtonal > and aren't even aware of it! :^)

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗plopper6 <billwestfall@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "plopper6"
<billwestfall@y...>
> wrote:
>
> > I like that a lot. Seems that drone is a perfect vehicle for
> > getting across what microtonal is all about.
>
> Why? A drone tends towards the static. Is microtonality all about
> harmonic stasis?
>

Dave's piece, I think, sounds pretty natural even to 12 tone trained
ears. The tonality slides around but it does it so gradually that
you get sucked in and may not even notice any microtonality.
And drone/noise is gaining a foothold with more and more people
(Steve Roach's popularity, for example). It's even showing up to
set the mood in movies/TV.
I will admit to a personal bias for this kind of music. I like it!

🔗Dave Seidel <dave@...>

Certainly not, microtonality is far too universally applicable to be tied to any one musical style or gesture. But I would argue that if one *does* happen to be making drones, using just or nearly-just intervals is the only way to go -- unless you *want* irrational beating patterns that never resolve.

Obviously I love drones and slow stuff in general, but I love lots of other things too, especially polyphony. I actually think of almost everything in terms of polyphony, including drones, in the sense that they are a form of homophony, which I think of as a special case of polyphony. But then I also think that dissonance is just a special case of consonance. :-)

By the way: Gene, I apologize for not mentioning earlier that I enjoyed your "choraled" string quartet movement you posted back in November. I hope we'll get to hear more of that piece someday.

- Dave

Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "plopper6" <billwestfall@y...>
> wrote:
> >> I like that a lot. Seems that drone is a perfect vehicle for >> getting across what microtonal is all about. > > Why? A drone tends towards the static. Is microtonality all about
> harmonic stasis?

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

Hi Chris!

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Chris Bryan wrote:
> > Something similar happened when we first
> > began to listen to stereo music reproduction,
> > and the engineers had created totally unreal
> > stereo sound positioning. It should be fairly
> > straighforward, since the advent of surround
> > sound, to make the listener think the sound is
> > passing right through his head, or to localise it
> > quite accurately in the listening space.
>
> Yes... and no. Panning is straightforward, but our psychological
> location mechanisms involve much more than level control. It also
> depends on things like inter-aural delay and head-related transfer
> functions, to name just a couple. Ambisonic encoding is the only
> algorithm I know of that accounts for that stuff. It's a lot more
> complicated than one might think.

Thank you for the feedback. Could you please
tell me where I might learn to do this stuff?

> Does any of this have *anything* to do with MMM?

Yes, it most definitely does!

In the past, before PCs, my compositional paradigm
was: Think up new music, try to notate it before you
forget it, share with others, try to get someone to
play it the way you "heard" it.

At present, after PCs, my compositional paradigm
is: Think up new music, try to notate it before you
forget it, try to get the machine to play it the way
you "heard" it, share with others.

But in future, after GigaHertz PCs, I hope my
compositional paradigm will evolve into: Think up new
music, try to record it before you forget it, get the
machine to play it _exactly_ the way you "heard" it,
share with others.

That exactitude of realisation is something that
older, purely notation-based, approaches just can't
offer. I want to move from notating (instructing)
music to realising (performing) it. Like a good
conductor, I want to be able to call on the resources
of a capable orchestra, and bring out of it music far
better than it knew it had in it! And that orchestra
won't fall sick, or have union meetings, or throw a
hissy fit because I happen to want them to play
seven against five in 19 notes to the octave.

People have been asking how do we heal the schisms
between microtonalists? I say, give them their heads!
And if this is not the forum for discussing the future
of microtonal compositional technique, tell me where
that forum is so I needn't bother you any more.

I had felt that members of this forum had a vision
wide enough to encompass new directions and new
choices in music making. Please don't tell me I was
mistaken in this!

Regards,
Yahya

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🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗kylegann1955 <kgann@...>

Hi Dave,

I"m late to the party, but the piece is amazing. If you don't mind, I'll put it up on
Postclassic Radio as soon as I can get to it.

Cheers,

Kyle

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Dave Seidel <dave@s...> wrote:
>
> "A drone of varying densities built from layers of complex
> justly-intoned chords with scintillating harmonics."
>
> I made this with Csound 5.0 RC2 (nice!). It has something to do with La
> Monte Young's Opening, Magic and Magic Opening chords, but it doesn't
> use those chords literally. No sine waves were harmed in the making of
> this music.
>
> As always, comments are welcome.
>
> Link: http://mysterybear.net/article/14
>
> - Dave Seidel
> music: http://mysterybear.net
> blog: http://superluminal.com/dave/weblog
>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗c.m.bryan <chrismbryan@...>

> Thank you for the feedback. Could you please
> tell me where I might learn to do this stuff?

http://www.ambisonic.net

It's a bit dense. The main idea of if is that you record/synthesize
an audio file that has spatialization information embedded in it (what
they call a "b-format" signal). Then, if someone has an ambisonic
decoder, the music will play back *using his/her specific speaker
setup.* So the same file could be played back with 2 speakers or 102
:)

Of course, the obvious problem is that nobody has an ambisonic decoder
sitting in their living room! But if you're composing in csound (or
probably most other synthesis languages) you can do the encoding and
decoding *inside the render*, so that out comes great-sounding
spatialization. Of course, that means you would have to re-render for
each speaker arrangment.

Also, ambisonic was originally designed to use equi-distant speaker
setups (quad, hex, whatever), and I'm having a hard time getting a
straight answer as to how easily it will decode to non-equal setups
(dolby surround, for instance).

Also (again), even if you're not using csound-or-something-like-it,
there are probably ambisonic vst-plugins, or you can look at
http://www.muse.demon.co.uk/vspace/vspace.html which I think is using
an ambisonic algorithm, but I haven't used it.

Good luck!

> But in future, after GigaHertz PCs, I hope my
> compositional paradigm will evolve into: Think up new
> music, try to record it before you forget it, get the
> machine to play it _exactly_ the way you "heard" it,
> share with others.

Hm, it seems to me that the exactitude of expressive digital
performance has less to do with computation speed, and more to do with
either intuitive computer interfaces or INTENSIVE tweaking. If you've
ever tried to program expressions into a csound score, you know what
I'm talking about! A third option is to use artificial intelligence
to give the computer the tools to interpret a score in sensible ways,
although that seems more suited to the performance or period music
where there already exist common-practice interpretive rules.

I really don't believe in absolute control for my music though. I
like to hear things that I didn't plan for, even if it's just me and
the compy. My compositional process is something like: 1) start with
an idea, 2) let the computer play the idea with lots of inexactitudes,
variation, and a dash of randomness, 3) let my idea develop based on
what I've heard (which may not have been what I expected!) 4) rinse
and repeat.

Not that I'm criticizing anyone's method, of course... with music, the
end is certainly more important than the means! :)

-Chris

p.s. my reason for questioning the appropriateness of the subject was
so that anyone replying, in the process of justifying the discussion,
would bring it right back around to something relevant, which is
exactly what you did ;) I just felt bad for anyone who didn't want
their inbox clogged with speculations about the pervasiveness of
corporate control on the subconscious mind, when all they were looking
for was some microtonal music-making!

--
"... free speech is meaningless if the commercial cacaphony has risen
to the point that no one can hear you." -Naomi Klein

🔗Dave Seidel <dave@...>

Wow, thanks Kyle! You just made my day (month, year...).

It occurs to me that you may want an MP3 that's more suitable for streaming than the one that's up on my site right now, which is 320kbps. I will look into making that; feel free to write me off-list it you want this.

- Dave

kylegann1955 wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> > I"m late to the party, but the piece is amazing. If you don't mind, I'll put it up on > Postclassic Radio as soon as I can get to it. > > Cheers,
> > Kyle
> > > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Dave Seidel <dave@s...> wrote:
>> "A drone of varying densities built from layers of complex >> justly-intoned chords with scintillating harmonics."
>>
>> I made this with Csound 5.0 RC2 (nice!). It has something to do with La >> Monte Young's Opening, Magic and Magic Opening chords, but it doesn't >> use those chords literally. No sine waves were harmed in the making of >> this music.
>>
>> As always, comments are welcome.
>>
>> Link: http://mysterybear.net/article/14
>>
>> - Dave Seidel
>> music: http://mysterybear.net
>> blog: http://superluminal.com/dave/weblog
>>
> > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >

🔗Dave Seidel <dave@...>

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 chris bryanwrote:
>
> > Thank you for the feedback. Could you please
> > tell me where I might learn to do this stuff?
>
> http://www.ambisonic.net
>
> It's a bit dense. The main idea of if is that you record/synthesize
> an audio file that has spatialization information embedded in it (what
> they call a "b-format" signal). Then, if someone has an ambisonic
> decoder, the music will play back *using his/her specific speaker
> setup.* So the same file could be played back with 2 speakers or 102
> :)
[snip]

Thanks for this, Chris.

> p.s. my reason for questioning the appropriateness of the subject was
> so that anyone replying, in the process of justifying the discussion,
> would bring it right back around to something relevant, which is
> exactly what you did ;) I just felt bad for anyone who didn't want
> their inbox clogged with speculations about the pervasiveness of
> corporate control on the subconscious mind, when all they were looking
> for was some microtonal music-making!

If your music is as subtle as your dialogue,
it should be well worth listening to! :-)

Regards,
Yahya

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🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Dave Seidel wrote:

> Yahya, thanks for the comments. I'm surprised that it sounds thin to
> you as well as the lack of sparkle, but it's probably a somewhat
> subjective thing; I'm probably focused in on the more subtle aspect of
> the sound. It may be like what I've experienced listening to the music
> of Phill Niblock, where at first it seems very static, but then you
> start to notice all the subtle stuff happening in the harmonics. ...

Dave, my apologies! I had only a short time to
respond, but wanted to give you some feedback.
I may have been too terse ...

On first hearing, I really enjoyed some of the
different textures, and the subtlety of the
changes, in particular the arrival and departure
of some of the more prominent tones in the whole
fabric. There's a point starting around 7:00,
where the low beats die away, that sounds like a
mob of manic church bell ringers overdosing on
reverb. I _love_ bell tones.

> ... If you didn't listen with headphones, I recommend
> trying it that way.

Owing to some unfortunate experiences in the
past, resulting in _very_ sore ears, I rarely use
headphones any more, or turn the volume up high,
until I know the piece I'm playing. But today I
closed the door to the office/studio, and turned
the volume way up from its usual protective 2 to
about 8. Made a huge difference!

I did hear more of the changing of the higher
overtones at this volume level, but I still don't
think I'd call them "scintillating"; they're bright
enough, and the changes can be quite rapid, but
(at least in my ear) they are not discrete
sparkles or flashes; rather, they vary quite
smoothly. But this is verbal nit-picking, so I'll
stop it!

The 'Myth-Busters' claim to have proven there is
no such thing as a "brown note". But those beats
that come in around 9:00 are real bowel-
tremblers! :-)

I enjoyed "Sublimation" even better this time,
with the volume turned up LOUD.

And I can see it making a great backing track
for a really excellent "photo-essay" documentary
of undersea life, as it sets a calm mood with both
depths and heights. Perhaps the idea of your
music being used as "program music" doesn't
appeal to you, but I think it has great commercial
potential used in this kind of way.

Dave, thank you for sharing this music with us.

> Also, I'm accustomed to listening to the WAV file that comes out of
> Csound, which is is pretty high resolution (48kHz sampling rate,
> 3072kpbs bitrate, 32-bit samples) compared to the MP3 and OGG encodings.
>
> - Dave

I doubt I could hear the difference any longer. :-(

> Yahya Abdal-Aziz wrote:
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > I like the way the piece builds and varies in intensity.
> > The sound was surprisingly thinner than I expected,
> > given that you used so many simultaneous oscillators,
> > and your "scintillating harmonics" comment had led
> > me to expect a bit more "sparkle". Yet the whole
> > piece hangs together quite satisfyingly.

Regards,
Yahya

--
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🔗kylegann1955 <kgann@...>

Hi Dave,

Well, the Live365 software encodes every mp3 into 192 kbps, so I'm not sure a different
mp3 would make any difference. I'm game to try it if you think it will. I've already put the
piece up, I couldn't wait.

I'm so often tempted to do something more austere and magical like you're doing. I'm not
sure it would come off in my hands - I'm just too addicted to melody and notation. But I'm
glad people like you are doing it, and I agree with Jon that you've come a long way since
the first pieces I heard of yours.

Cheers,

Kyle

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Dave Seidel <dave@s...> wrote:
>
> Wow, thanks Kyle! You just made my day (month, year...).
>
> It occurs to me that you may want an MP3 that's more suitable for
> streaming than the one that's up on my site right now, which is 320kbps.
> I will look into making that; feel free to write me off-list it you
> want this.
>
> - Dave
>
> kylegann1955 wrote:
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > I"m late to the party, but the piece is amazing. If you don't mind, I'll put it up on
> > Postclassic Radio as soon as I can get to it.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Kyle
> >
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Dave Seidel <dave@s...> wrote:
> >> "A drone of varying densities built from layers of complex
> >> justly-intoned chords with scintillating harmonics."
> >>
> >> I made this with Csound 5.0 RC2 (nice!). It has something to do with La
> >> Monte Young's Opening, Magic and Magic Opening chords, but it doesn't
> >> use those chords literally. No sine waves were harmed in the making of
> >> this music.
> >>
> >> As always, comments are welcome.
> >>
> >> Link: http://mysterybear.net/article/14
> >>
> >> - Dave Seidel
> >> music: http://mysterybear.net
> >> blog: http://superluminal.com/dave/weblog
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

🔗Dave Seidel <dave@...>

Hi Kyle,

No problem, let's just see how it goes with Live365.

Thanks again for the encouragement. I feel that there's a lot more exploring to do it this area, and I'm just starting to scratch the surface. I have always written melodic/harmonic/rhythmic/notated music as well, but give the limited amount of time I have in my typical week, I just gotta prioritize in the direction that is most personally compelling to me.

- Dave

kylegann1955 wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> > Well, the Live365 software encodes every mp3 into 192 kbps, so I'm not sure a different > mp3 would make any difference. I'm game to try it if you think it will. I've already put the > piece up, I couldn't wait.
> > I'm so often tempted to do something more austere and magical like you're doing. I'm not > sure it would come off in my hands - I'm just too addicted to melody and notation. But I'm > glad people like you are doing it, and I agree with Jon that you've come a long way since > the first pieces I heard of yours.
> > Cheers,
> > Kyle

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...> wrote:
>
If this is about: 'Do subliminal effects really exist in sound?'
OR 'How could I use subliminal effects in my music?' I think
all this is very relavant. Couldn't a uplifting and bright song
which would uplift and brighten a given person, be even more so
with appropriate subliminal effects? I'm not talking about a
message per se, just a effect. This would REALLY be something new
in music (12 EDO or microtonal).

Stephen

_______________________________________________________________

Something similar happened when we first
> began to listen to stereo music reproduction,
> and the engineers had created totally unreal
> stereo sound positioning...
Yes... and no. Panning is straightforward, but our psychological
location mechanisms involve much more than level control. It also
depends on things like inter-aural delay and head-related transfer
functions, to name just a couple. Ambisonic encoding is the only...

Does any of this have *anything* to do with MMM?

-Chris

> Chris,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >Does any of this have *anything* to do with MMM?
>
> Not really, and it might be a good time for people to recall the
focus of this forum, and utilize places like metatuning when threads
drift completely OT.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "c.m.bryan"
<chrismbryan@g...> wrote:

Chris

A while back ( maybe 2001 ) I saw something on TV about
a new speaker technology. I think it was developed at M.I.T.
I don't know the name of it, maybe it's what you're talking
about here. Anyway it would allow someone in a room to hear
music, and yet someone else in the same room would hear
nothing.

Stephen Szpak

_________________________________________________________

>
> > Thank you for the feedback. Could you please
> > tell me where I might learn to do this stuff?
>
> http://www.ambisonic.net
>
> It's a bit dense. The main idea of if is that you
record/synthesize
> an audio file that has spatialization information embedded in it
(what
> they call a "b-format" signal). Then, if someone has an ambisonic
> decoder, the music will play back *using his/her specific speaker
> setup.* So the same file could be played back with 2 speakers or
102
> :)
>
> Of course, the obvious problem is that nobody has an ambisonic
decoder
> sitting in their living room!

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz"
<yahya@m...> wrote:
>
>
Yahya

Will we
have to go into the streets and shops one day
armed with earplugs to prevent the insidious
onslaught of subliminal propaganda? Are we,
even now, watching television shows that, all
subliminally, say:

"A Big Mac is a _healthy_ start to your day.
Would you like fries with that?"

++++++++++++Product placements for alcohol, tobacco
dairy and coffee are almost non-stop now on TV.
I catch a lot of them. Most people, I would
guess, don't catch them or even know what
a product placement is.

Stephen Szpak

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

---> >
Carl

Thanks. This may be it.Still checking it out, but it seems like
the opposite of what I'm thinking. Maybe it is just a adjustment
thing.

http://www.sawonline.com/faq.shtml

ALT's unique dispersion characteristics help in several ways. The
most obvious is that listeners seated off axis hear virtually the
same timbre as those on the reference axis.

Stephen

_____________________________________________________

> > ... Anyway it would allow someone in a room to hear
> > music, and yet someone else in the same room would hear
> > nothing.
> >
> > Stephen Szpak
>
> Acoustic lens. They're now commercially available. But I don't
> think it's the same as the thing mentioned in Chris' post.
>
> -Carl
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "stephenszpak"
<stephen_szpak@h...> wrote:

Has anyone gotten into this? Listening to
beta, alpha, theta or
delta waves while listening to music? Alpha and/or
theta seem the most important.

{{{center of page}}}

http://www.hackcanada.com/ice3/wetware/mindmachines.html#Brain%
20Waves

Would using binaural beats be the way to hear the same
frequencies as theta waves
(4 to 8 cycles) and alpha waves(8 to 13 cycles). Speakers can't
make frequencies this low, correct? I read humans can't hear
below about 20 cycles too.

Binaural Beats

Sound can be an extremely effective way to guide the mind into
specific mental states or levels of brain wave activity. One theory
used within light & sound technology in effect created by binaural
beats. When your left ear rec. A signal of 200 Hz. and your right
ear hears a signal of 210 Hz. In an attempt to make sense of the
conflicting sounds your mind receives the two hemispheres of your
brain registers a phantom third signal (not the actual signal) or a
binaural beat. This binaural beat is registered as the difference of
both frequencies. In this case 10 Hz. This beat frequency. isn't an
actual signal but a signal created by both hemispheres working in
synchronization to register the conflicting signals.

_____________________________________________________________
Sound studies: (okay if you have time, and all this interests you,
info seems relavant)

http://www.mindmodulations.com/resources/Study-abstracts2.html

_____________________________________________________________

"I can't get these thoughts out of my head."
(too much here unless you got way too much time, and
also not relavant to what I want regarding music)

http://www.datafilter.com/mc/remoteBehavioralInfluence.html

Running out of time. Back Wednesday probably.

> Stephen
>
> _______________________________________________________________
>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> At 10:05 AM 1/21/2006, you wrote:
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "c.m.bryan"
> ><chrismbryan@g...> wrote:
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > A while back ( maybe 2001 ) I saw something on TV about
> > a new speaker technology. I think it was developed at M.I.T.
> > I don't know the name of it, maybe it's what you're talking
> > about here. Anyway it would allow someone in a room to hear
> > music, and yet someone else in the same room would hear
> > nothing.
> >
> > Stephen Szpak
>
> Acoustic lens.

That's something else entirely -- I believe. But Stephen seems to be
talking about noise-cancellation technology, where an oppositely-
phased version of the sound is created and is made equal in amplitude
to the original sound at the location where the person who wants
quiet sits.

> They're now commercially available. But I don't
> think it's the same as the thing mentioned in Chris' post.

But "acoustic lens" may be . . .