Manners (was: et 5ths ...)

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 "a_sparschuh" wrote:

[snip]
> > > So 665et consisting of arbitrarily chosen
> > > Delfi-Units DU:=2^(1/665)
> > > has to be considered as the lowest adaequate passable et
> > > to approximate Pythagorean proportions somehow tolerable however.
> >
> > Not hardly.
> I.m.o. any et below 665 remains incompetent amateur work.

In _my_ opinion, such insults are out of place here;
as a community of interest, we should be able to
encourage and _gently_ correct each other when
we perceive mistakes in this difficult (and sometimes
subjective) work.

Besides, let's look at the term "amateur". It means
someone who does a thing for the love of it. What is
its opposite?: "professional". That means someone
who is paid to do a thing. I'd much rather have a
thing done by someone who does it for love than by
someone who has to be paid to do it ...!

> Sorry, with all respect for your opinion,
> but the interplay of my mind and my ears demand such
> an high-fidelty internal precision.

No, it didn't sound very respectful at all.

Regards,
Yahya

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> On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 "a_sparschuh" wrote:

> > I.m.o. any et below 665 remains incompetent amateur work.

Incompetent? I beg to differ. Anyone can put holes in a piece of
paper, but Conlon Nancarrow's near-autistic devotion and mathematical
precision lead to some of the best music in *any* ET. Part of his
genious was in abandoning the short-sighted view of consonance-good
dissonance-bad. By treating very short dissonant figures as
indeterminate percussion, he could add timbral layers that, while they
didn't sound like a piano, were still incredibly evocative. In this
way he transcended not only the traditional limitations of his
instrument (including its tuning) but also the "soulless" nature of
mechanically aided music in general.

I feel like a broken record, I seem to be telling everyone these days:
Don't knock it 'till you've tried it. Listen to "The Contest of
Pleasures" by Butcher, Dorner, and Charles. They manage to pull
endless subtlety out of only 12 notes. "Good Morning/Good Night" pulls
even deeper intricacy out of (seemingly) 3 notes.

I'm sure you've heard the saying "It isn't the size of the dog in the
fight, but the size of the fight in the dog." I think it applies well
here. The tuning system, I believe, has only a minimal impact on the
expressiveness of a piece, whether it be Slendro, Adaptive JI, or
12-tet. What matters is the size of the soul that wrestles the song
out of Platonic Unbeing and pins it to the page for people to hear.

On 1/15/06, Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...> wrote:
>
> In _my_ opinion, such insults are out of place here;
> as a community of interest, we should be able to
> encourage and _gently_ correct each other when
> we perceive mistakes in this difficult (and sometimes
> subjective) work.
>
> Besides, let's look at the term "amateur". It means
> someone who does a thing for the love of it. What is
> its opposite?: "professional". That means someone
> who is paid to do a thing. I'd much rather have a
> thing done by someone who does it for love than by
> someone who has to be paid to do it ...!

Amen sibling! Unfortunately, I got kicked out of my last band for
clinging to this unprofessional belief, and now I have to make all of
my music with a thrift-store tape recorder. Mine's still better,
though.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rozencrantz the Sane
<rozencrantz@g...> wrote:
> > > I.m.o. any et below 665 remains incompetent amateur work.
>
> Incompetent?
That depends on the point of view,
mostly an question of taste:
"De gustibus non es disputandum"

>I beg to differ.
respected.

> Anyone can put holes in a piece of
> paper,
Why not?

> but Conlon Nancarrow's near-autistic devotion and mathematical
> precision lead to some of the best music in *any* ET.
in 0-et you can do barely nothing.
in 1-et you have only one boring pitch modulo the octave.
in 2-et no more than 1,2^(1/2),2 or as scala file:

! 2-et
600.0
2/1

an horrible tritone :-(

> Part of his
> genious was in abandoning the short-sighted view of consonance-good
> dissonance-bad.
What else concept did he use instead of that?

> By treating very short dissonant figures as
> indeterminate percussion,
Why do they have to be short?

> he could add timbral layers that,
timbre comes acustical from the distribution of the
overtone partial series, due the consonant conception.
Here bites the cat it's own tail.

> while they
> didn't sound like a piano, were still incredibly evocative.
How can i get a record?

> In this
> way he transcended not only the traditional limitations of his
> instrument (including its tuning) but also the "soulless" nature of
> mechanically aided music in general.
Any good musician ineracts with the soul of his/hers instrument,
indepedent if mechanic or electronic.

> I feel like a broken record, I seem to be telling everyone these days:
> Don't knock it 'till you've tried it.
I did that exhaustive, know from that waht i do prefer,
accepting that people hear different,
like they prefer or reject individual certain foot eatables.

> Listen to "The Contest of
> Pleasures" by Butcher, Dorner, and Charles. They manage to pull
> endless subtlety out of only 12 notes.
I do esteem some pentatonics as more fine subtle,
as todays "2-limit-12" in 12 logarithmic equal steps:
"de gustibus non..."

> "Good Morning/Good Night" pulls
> even deeper intricacy out of (seemingly) 3 notes.
Why not an 1 note theme of 1-et,
if rhymically clever presented on a drum for instance.

>
> I'm sure you've heard the saying "It isn't the size of the dog in the
> fight, but the size of the fight in the dog."
Agree:
Every dog contains still somehow the genes of an wolf.

>I think it applies well
> here.
Some people prefer even meantone-wolf howling: Insist in
considerable detuned intervals.
As professional tuner i have do deliver what the customer orders.

> The tuning system, I believe, has only a minimal impact on the
> expressiveness of a piece,
Werckmeister & Bach thoght definitive different,
as far as the records report.
I'm still in theirs tradition.

> whether it be Slendro, Adaptive JI, or
> 12-tet.
If you know aware exact what you are doing, then everything is ok
in tuning.

> What matters is the size of the soul that wrestles the song
> out of Platonic Unbeing and pins it to the page for people to hear.
Everybody as he likes most or not.

>
> On 1/15/06, Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@m...> wrote:
> >
> > In _my_ opinion, such insults are out of place here;
My sentence you consider also began with I.m.o:
Why so much ado about preferences?
We should respect & tolerate each others.

> > as a community of interest, we should be able to
> > encourage and _gently_ correct each other when
> > we perceive mistakes in this difficult (and sometimes
> > subjective) work.
Apology:
May be i went in my statement to far, in expressing my
special way of accurate listening like a sportsman.

> >
> > Besides, let's look at the term "amateur". It means
> > someone who does a thing for the love of it.
lat: amare >> to love!

> What is
> > its opposite?: "professional".
opposite of love? hate!

> That means someone
> > who is paid to do a thing.
Misunderstanding:
I didn't thought about money.

> I'd much rather have a
> > thing done by someone who does it for love than by
> > someone who has to be paid to do it ...!
No criterion for me.
>
> Amen sibling!
Halejuja.

> Unfortunately, I got kicked out of my last band for
> clinging to this unprofessional belief,
That indicates: The were the wrong people for you and yours conception.

> and now I have to make all of
> my music with a thrift-store tape recorder. Mine's still better,
> though.
If you love it: Without any doubt!

>
yours sincerely
A.S.

AS,

{you wrote...}
>> while they
>> didn't sound like a piano, were still incredibly evocative.
>How can i get a record?

http://tinyurl.com/7jm5m

Cheers,
Jon

> > he could add timbral layers that,
> timbre comes acustical from the distribution of the
> overtone partial series, due the consonant conception.
> Here bites the cat it's own tail.

There's only tail-biting if you consider timbre to only include
perfectly-tuned harmonic elements. I'm no acoustics expert, but that
seems hugely simplistic to me. I thought the mathematical harmonic
series, like any mathematical system, is only an abstract
representation of what *some* acoustic phenomena *tend* to
approximate. But all natural sounds deviate from that conception, and
some are almost completely unrelated! In the case of inharmonic
timbres, mightn't edo-s sometimes be better compositional imitators,
simply because they're *not* harmonically pure? It's just a thought:
I'm mainly a Just guys myself, so I'm not taking sides.

-Chris

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@g...>
wrote:
>
> > > he could add timbral layers that,
> > timbre comes acustical from the distribution of the
> > overtone partial series, due the consonant conception.
> > Here bites the cat it's own tail.
>
> There's only tail-biting if you consider timbre to only include
> perfectly-tuned harmonic elements. I'm no acoustics expert, but
that
> seems hugely simplistic to me. I thought the mathematical harmonic
> series, like any mathematical system, is only an abstract
> representation of what *some* acoustic phenomena *tend* to
> approximate. But all natural sounds deviate from that conception,

The human voice, bowed strings, wind and brass instruments all have
*perfectly* harmonic partials under normal musical circumstances. But
the piano, which seemed to be the topic here, does have significant
stretching of the partials relative to harmonicity.

> and
> some are almost completely unrelated! In the case of inharmonic
> timbres, mightn't edo-s sometimes be better compositional imitators,
> simply because they're *not* harmonically pure? It's just a
thought:
> I'm mainly a Just guys myself, so I'm not taking sides.
>
> -Chris

A tuning system based on the intervals found in an inharmonic
spectrum will be, in some ways, an analogue of JI for that spectrum
(timbre). And in most cases, this tuning system won't be an EDO . . .