Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Something new! / Something old?

I've been reading THE END OF SCIENCE (by John Horgan) recently.
I came across a comment that is below:

Just as lovers begin talking about their relationship only
when it sours, so will scientists become more self-conscious
and doubtful as their efforts yield diminishing returns.
Science will follow the path already trodden by...music... .
It will become more introspective, subjective, diffuse,
obsessed with its own methods.

I've been wondering if this is true. I'd like to keep this
on ***12 EDO*** only for now at least.

What is left to do
in 12 EDO?

A new tone? Haven't all the tones possible been
discovered? I'm not speaking of the infinite number, just the
basic ones. Like, a sound may not be a real-world wind instrument
but if it sounds like one, that's close enough. I'm sure there
are 10's or 100's out there that could fit into the wind
instrument category.
Some tones can
sustain like organ, but piano can't. I could go on, but I think
what I'm saying is obvious.

What about the rhythm? Aren't they all just variations of
one or more basic ones?

Subject matter if lyrics used?

Time Signature at the beginning of the piece. Aren't all
possible ones variations on simple or compound?

Stephen Szpak

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

> What is left to do
> in 12 EDO?

Plenty. When someone becomes a grandmaster at chess and can beat
everyone at the chess club, they don't quit playing because there's
nothing left to do. No matter how subtle the difference between two
pieces, there is always room for more subtlety.

Also, we haven't even gotten to that point yet. Listen to "Crank
Heart" by Xiu Xiu; "The Contest of Pleasures" by Butcher, Charles, and
Dorner; Study no. 37 by Conlon Nancarrow.

> What about the rhythm? Aren't they all just variations of
> one or more basic ones?

Two words: Conlon Nancarrow.

> Subject matter if lyrics used?

Should we stop writing books, then?

> Time Signature at the beginning of the piece. Aren't all
> possible ones variations on simple or compound?

I've taken the lead of Steve Coleman and stopped using time signature
entirely. Actually, that's just a step on the path I'm taking towards
abandoning notation entirely, but it's a significant one.

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗paolovalladolid <phv40@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rozencrantz the Sane
<rozencrantz@g...> wrote:

++++++++Thanks to those that responded to my post.

>
> > What is left to do
> > in 12 EDO?
>
> Plenty. When someone becomes a grandmaster at chess and can beat
> everyone at the chess club, they don't quit playing because there's
> nothing left to do. No matter how subtle the difference between two
> pieces, there is always room for more subtlety.

++++++++++++++++Precisely my point. From THE END OF SCIENCE>>>>

so will scientists (musicians???????) become more self-conscious
and doubtful as their efforts yield diminishing returns.

> > Subject matter if lyrics used?
>
> Should we stop writing books, then?

+++++++++But if all the books being written are about, let's say,
20-ish subjects, (in this case musical genres) hasn't everything
been done? Putting it another way... are there ANY musical
genres left to create in 12 EDO
that would not be merely derivatives of what
currently exists?

There are a probably an infinite number of stories (melodies)
but I doubt there are an infinite number of subjects (genres).

In THE END OF SCIENCE John Horgan talks about pure science
ending, or the fact that it has ended. Almost nothing new has
come from *pure* science in decades.

From Leo Kadanoff:

"The truth is, there is nothing--there is *nothing*--of the same
order
of magnitude as the accomplishments of the invention of quantum
mechanics or of the double helix or of relativity. Just nothing
like that has happened in the last few decades."

Applied science continues on. Computers get faster, etc. but
there is nothing new. If a totally new genre can't exist in 12 EDO
I would have to say that 12 EDO has come to a end. (I'm not saying
a new genre can't be created for 12 EDO. I expect someone has
comments on this.)

So... if nothing new can exist in 12 EDO we are left to endlessly
divide up the octave.

From THE END OF SCIENCE>>>

It(science, or in our case, music)
will become more introspective, subjective, diffuse,
obsessed with its own methods.

>
> Also, we haven't even gotten to that point yet. Listen to "Crank
> Heart" by Xiu Xiu; "The Contest of Pleasures" by Butcher, Charles,
and
> Dorner; Study no. 37 by Conlon Nancarrow.

++++++++++++++++++++++++Any free music at a link???

>
> > What about the rhythm? Aren't they all just variations of
> > one or more basic ones?
>
> Two words: Conlon Nancarrow.
>
++++++++++++++++++++++++Any free music at a link???

Thanks,

Stephen Szpak

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Stephen,

I won't really get into it with regard to what is left to explore. No matter the resources, I think the individual artist finds what they need, or looks elsewhere, to create new things (or new ways of doing old things). But I really do think you need to explore a lot more of the music that is out there, current and from the last 50-100 years, to see any trend lines.

{you wrote...}
>> Dorner; Study no. 37 by Conlon Nancarrow.
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++Any free music at a link???

I haven't specifically looked for Nancarrow for downloading (I've got the complete player piano works on CD from Wergo), but he is one of the main subjects in the ninth program from the "American Mavericks" radio series from MPR. Go to this page:

http://musicmavericks.publicradio.org/listening/

...and look for Program 9 - The Do-It-Yourself Composer. One hour of streaming RealAudio, a very, very fine series in all. Lots and lots of music and info to peruse on that site (including an entire sub-site devoted to Harry Partch).

As for:

>> > What about the rhythm? Aren't they all just variations of
>> > one or more basic ones?

Kyle Gann has had a number of posts recently, with score excerpts and audio clips, on rhythm in the last few decades, especially from the Totalist aesthetic. Great writing and analysis:

http://www.artsjournal.com/postclassic/

Cheers,
Jon

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...>
wrote:

Jon

Thanks for the links,will check them out.

What do you think was the last totally new genre
in American music? ((The genre must not be a derivative
of a previous one))anyone can comment here.

Some of my point, which I'm sure you got, was that
the limits of 12 EDO, to some extent, extend to all
other scales that are possible. If one could create some
new tone, for instance, in 12 EDO that didn't sound at all
like anything else, that exists unchanged in 19EDO,23,53,533 etc.
All rhythm's carry over too. It *seems* to me that the great
ocean of possible non-12 EDO music, is not quite as large as
I had thought. One can add more and more notes to a piece,
but that can't change the genre.

Stephen

_________________________________________________________________

>
> Stephen,
>
> I won't really get into it with regard to what is left to explore.
No matter the resources, I think the individual artist finds what
they need, or looks elsewhere, to create new things (or new ways of
doing old things). But I really do think you need to explore a lot
more of the music that is out there, current and from the last 50-
100 years, to see any trend lines.
>
>
> {you wrote...}
> >> Dorner; Study no. 37 by Conlon Nancarrow.
> >
> >++++++++++++++++++++++++Any free music at a link???
>
> I haven't specifically looked for Nancarrow for downloading (I've
got the complete player piano works on CD from Wergo), but he is one
of the main subjects in the ninth program from the "American
Mavericks" radio series from MPR. Go to this page:
>
> http://musicmavericks.publicradio.org/listening/
>
> ...and look for Program 9 - The Do-It-Yourself Composer. One hour
of streaming RealAudio, a very, very fine series in all. Lots and
lots of music and info to peruse on that site (including an entire
sub-site devoted to Harry Partch).
>
> As for:
>
> >> > What about the rhythm? Aren't they all just variations of
> >> > one or more basic ones?
>
> Kyle Gann has had a number of posts recently, with score excerpts
and audio clips, on rhythm in the last few decades, especially from
the Totalist aesthetic. Great writing and analysis:
>
> http://www.artsjournal.com/postclassic/
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...>
wrote:

Jon

Nancarrow's
excerpts remind me of a Star Trek Voyager episode where
the crew finds a race of people on a certain planet that
had never heard music before. This race soon became intrigued
with (if I remember correctly) the range of notes possible and
the speed at which they could be played, and other similar
things. They had no real understanding of music. This state
remained until the credits. I would like to have heard more
of Nancarrow's works. I'm sure he did some more musical stuff.
(That's okay though, no need to search for more at this time.)

Listened to 90% of Program #9 . It was interesting.
Generally speaking (listening)
I think I'm very conventional though.

Stephen

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

On 1/14/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...>
> wrote:
>
> Jon
>
> Thanks for the links,will check them out.
>
> What do you think was the last totally new genre
> in American music? ((The genre must not be a derivative
> of a previous one))anyone can comment here.
>

I use Soulseek (http://slsknet.org) for finding samples of music, so I
don't know really where else to look, but if you want to do a BnP I'll
send you my adress.

Your constraint "must not be a derivative..." is misleading. Music
does not exist in a vacuum. Even the largest innovative leaps of John
Butcher or the Trance movements came from a very clear progression
(Jazz to Bebop to Free Jazz to Non Idiomatic or Futurist Noise to
Industrial to Trance)

The *only* genre that I could consider completely new is the Japanese
movement of Onkyo, but that is more because I don't know the history
of Onkyo than that it doesn't have predecessors.

As for American music, I reccomend you look at the New Weird America
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Weird_America) and especially Animal
Collective. My good friend who knows more about pop music than I often
claims that Animal Collective is a counterexample to the saying
"Nobody is doing anything new anymore"

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

IMO, this entire line of thinking (creating a new genre) is rediculous.

*Everything* that has ever been made is derivative from that which
came before. The psychological effect of something being "new" is the
result of a gestalt perception of the whole, which as an entity is new
and unique, although composed of pre-existing, derivative elements.

If there were only one tone and one rythm possible in the entire
universe, humanity could spend eternity making new and exciting music
from that, complete with genres and all.

-Chris

On 1/15/06, Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...> wrote:
> On 1/14/06, stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...> wrote:
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > Thanks for the links,will check them out.
> >
> > What do you think was the last totally new genre
> > in American music? ((The genre must not be a derivative
> > of a previous one))anyone can comment here.
> >
>
> I use Soulseek (http://slsknet.org) for finding samples of music, so I
> don't know really where else to look, but if you want to do a BnP I'll
> send you my adress.
>
> Your constraint "must not be a derivative..." is misleading. Music
> does not exist in a vacuum. Even the largest innovative leaps of John
> Butcher or the Trance movements came from a very clear progression
> (Jazz to Bebop to Free Jazz to Non Idiomatic or Futurist Noise to
> Industrial to Trance)
>
> The *only* genre that I could consider completely new is the Japanese
> movement of Onkyo, but that is more because I don't know the history
> of Onkyo than that it doesn't have predecessors.
>
> As for American music, I reccomend you look at the New Weird America
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Weird_America) and especially Animal
> Collective. My good friend who knows more about pop music than I often
> claims that Animal Collective is a counterexample to the saying
> "Nobody is doing anything new anymore"
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
"... free speech is meaningless if the commercial cacaphony has risen
to the point that no one can hear you." -Naomi Klein

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

Hi all,

Stephen Szpak wrote:

[snip]
>> Dorner; Study no. 37 by Conlon Nancarrow.
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++Any free music at a link???

Jon Szanto replied:
> I haven't specifically looked for Nancarrow for downloading (I've got the
complete player piano works on CD from Wergo), but he is one of the main
subjects in the ninth program from the "American Mavericks" radio series
from MPR. Go to this page:
>
> http://musicmavericks.publicradio.org/listening/
>
> ...and look for Program 9 - The Do-It-Yourself Composer. One hour of
streaming RealAudio, a very, very fine series in all. Lots and lots of music
and info to peruse on that site (including an entire sub-site devoted to
Harry Partch).
>
> As for:
>
> >> > What about the rhythm? Aren't they all just variations of
> >> > one or more basic ones?
>
> Kyle Gann has had a number of posts recently, with score excerpts and
audio clips, on rhythm in the last few decades, especially from the Totalist
aesthetic. Great writing and analysis:
>
> http://www.artsjournal.com/postclassic/

Jon,
Thanks for the excellent links!

I'd never run across the Mavericks site before - looks
like hours & hours of fun and information. 6 minutes
into Program 9, and I already know far more about
Nancarrow than I'd learnt previously.

As for rhythm, a major interest of mine, I will surely
have to follow up Kyle's posts, to benefit from his
wisdom & experience.

Stephen,
On your questions: there's always something new to do
with the same old resources; it's just that most people
spend their lives repeating the mistakes of others!
(And I'd rather make my own mistakes, thank you.)

Regards,
Yahya

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Yahya,

{you wrote...}
>I'd never run across the Mavericks site before - looks like hours & hours of fun and information. 6 minutes into Program 9, and I already know far more about
>Nancarrow than I'd learnt previously.
>
>As for rhythm, a major interest of mine, I will surely have to follow up Kyle's posts, to benefit from his wisdom & experience.

I didn't happen to mention that Kyle actually wrote all the scripts for the 13, one-hour shows of that series, and while there was editing done by others, it really is an amazing "document" of the American musical history. And there is, indeed, hours and hours of material to delve into on the site. I helped with a good bit of the Partch information and items (photos, audio) and actually played a short concert of Partch's music at the National Public Radio Conference when they launched the series.

We should also remember that Kyle Gann is a member of this list, if infrequent poster; if you have any questions he'll probably eventually answer. We should also note, courtesy of his blog, that his book on the music of Nancarrow is being released in a more affordable paperback version.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan
<chrismbryan@g...> wrote:

It's been said that chimpanzees have about 98% of the genes
a human being has. Putting it another way, chimps missed being
human by just 2%.
Some music, by our perceptions, is so different, that speaking of
it as being related to some other genre (because all genres must
be related) is not believed. Why do some people love "Boston"
and hate the "Bee Gees"? These people must believe that at least
2 genres exist.

Stephen

________________________________________________________________

>
> IMO, this entire line of thinking (creating a new genre) is
rediculous.
>
> *Everything* that has ever been made is derivative from that which
> came before. The psychological effect of something being "new" is
the
> result of a gestalt perception of the whole, which as an entity is
new
> and unique, although composed of pre-existing, derivative elements.
>
> If there were only one tone and one rythm possible in the entire
> universe, humanity could spend eternity making new and exciting
music
> from that, complete with genres and all.
>
> -Chris
>
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rozencrantz the Sane
<rozencrantz@g...> wrote:

Rozencrantz

Even the largest innovative leaps of John
> Butcher or the Trance movements came from a very clear progression

Has anyone ever put anything on-line showing (in a diagram)
where the 'blues' started and what branched off of that, and
what of that etc. etc.
Polkas,disco, rock, barber shop, and all the rest.

Also, I don't know what a BnP is.

Stephen

___________________________________________________________________

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 stephen szpak wrote:

> It's been said that chimpanzees have about 98% of the genes
> a human being has. Putting it another way, chimps missed being
> human by just 2%.

Yes, Stephen, but putting it another way, humans
missed being chimp by just 2%. For all those nature-
lovers out there, that must be a sore blow. What
they don't realise is that they probably would have
been unable to appreciate most of the music we
almost-chimp MicroMusicMakers make ...

Regards,
Yahya

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/234 - Release Date: 18/1/06

🔗Rozencrantz the Sane <rozencrantz@...>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@...>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rozencrantz the Sane
<rozencrantz@g...> wrote:
>
> > > Thanks Rozencrantz. I'll try to find that guide.

I actually looked up BnP in my Windows book!

Stephen

____________________________________________________________

> As far as I know, the onlything like that is the Ishkur guide to
> electronic music.
>
> > Also, I don't know what a BnP is.
>
> Blanks and Postage. I give you my adress, you mail me a blank CD
and
> some stamps, I send you back a CD with new innovative music on it.
>

🔗stephenszpak <stephen_szpak@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rozencrantz the Sane
<rozencrantz@g...> wrote:
>
Rozencrantz

I did check out Animal Collective. It sounds like it came from
Africa, if that makes any sense. It IS different, I'll give you
that.

Stephen
_____________________________________________________________________

>
> > As for American music, I reccomend you look at the New Weird
America
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Weird_America) and especially
Animal
> Collective. My good friend who knows more about pop music than I
often
> claims that Animal Collective is a counterexample to the saying
> "Nobody is doing anything new anymore"
>