Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic Work in progress

I thought I might post a link to my current microtonal work in
progress.

It is a piece for virtual alphorns. The alphorn, as some may know.
is a famous swiss folk instrument, consisting of a single long tube
and playing only tones of one harmonic overtone series - and that is
the scale that I use in the piece, too. The privilege of the virtual
alphorn over the real one is, of course, the possibility to play
more than one harmonic series - and, in consequence, the possibility
to modulate!

The beginning of the piece may sound a little like in some of the
folk pieces - but soon it drifts off, especially towards much use of
the weirder intervals of the harmonic series, such as the 11/8 and
13/8.

The programming was all done in csound - the orc is derived from a
french horn sound downloadable from
http://members.fortunecity.com/odradek5/pp/csound/index.html, while
the score was typed entirely be hand (phew!). I am not so satisfied
with the expressivity yet - less the fault of the instrument than of
the fact that I have only partly mastered it so far! The piece is
also not finished yet (so don't worry about the sound quality and
its cureent rather abrupt ending).
Comments are welcome.

http://homepage.hispeed.ch/hsstraub/musik/zernez_pre_version_4.m3u
http://homepage.hispeed.ch/hsstraub/musik/zernez_pre_version_4.mp3
(3.4 MB)
--
Hans Straub

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

> I thought I might post a link to my current microtonal work in
> progress.
>
> It is a piece for virtual alphorns.

Really nice harmonies and progressions!

If I could offer a slightly off-topic, and hopefully constructive,
criticism as a fellow csounder: my issue with the piece wasn't
anything to do with the pitch content, but that it was written for a
"virtual instrument." As a listener, I was immediately aware that I
was listening to something that was trying to sound like [a] human
performer[s]... but very few electronic tools (and no csound
instrument I've ever heard!) can really do that convincingly. And
because I'm aware that it's trying to be a virtual imitation of an
acoustic instrument, I'm even more conscious of how it's not as good
as the real thing.

I understand why you would want to be using the computer for this
piece for tuing and technical reasons, but as a listener I also need
an aesthetic reason: that could be an "inhuman" modification of the
instrument, an addition of an electronic texture, or merely the
placement of the original instrument in a virtual space, where panning
and reverberation become part of the composition. My subconscious
needs to know why you're using the computer :)

To bring the issue back on-topic, I've been learning recently that
cool tuning does not = good composition. I've been so enthralled by
the issue of tuning for the past couple years that I sort fo forgot
about everything else, and it's just recently that I've been
refocusing my attention on things like form and timbre. I know it
sounds obvious, but it's been a big revelation for me!

Doing scores by hand?! For goodness sake, use Blue (you can find it
on csounds.com) and work in a (scala-compatible) piano roll!

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Dave Seidel <dave@...>

Blue is definitely cross-platform -- I use it on Windows. It only requires that you have Java installed. The piano roll is quite easy to use and will work with any .scl file. It's true that there are a lot of features, which makes it sound complex, but you only need use the features that are helpful to you. I recommend giving it a try.

- Dave

Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@g...>
> wrote:
> > >>Doing scores by hand?! For goodness sake, use Blue (you can find it
>>on csounds.com) and work in a (scala-compatible) piano roll!
> > > Isn't Blue Linux-only? In any case, the description of it sounds
> dauntingly complicated. I'm hoping the next release of Tonescape will
> allow me to compose in 4 and 5 equal on a piano roll and export the
> results; from what Monz has said that should be true.

🔗monz <monz@...>

Hi Gene,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@g...>
> wrote:
>
> > Doing scores by hand?! For goodness sake, use Blue
> > (you can find it on csounds.com) and work in a
> > (scala-compatible) piano roll!
>
> Isn't Blue Linux-only? In any case, the description of it
> sounds dauntingly complicated. I'm hoping the next release
> of Tonescape will allow me to compose in 4 and 5 equal on
> a piano roll and export the results; from what Monz has
> said that should be true.

Doing that in Tonescape will be simple. The only caveat
i have to mention is that, while exporting to MIDI and
Csound is already finished, developing the instrument sounds
for exporting to .wav, .mp3, etc., is going to take a
long time, so the next alpha release ("Mustang") will
have only a small handful of instruments for that purpose.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:

> Doing that in Tonescape will be simple. The only caveat
> i have to mention is that, while exporting to MIDI and
> Csound is already finished, developing the instrument sounds
> for exporting to .wav, .mp3, etc., is going to take a
> long time, so the next alpha release ("Mustang") will
> have only a small handful of instruments for that purpose.

I don't need to do that, a 4 or 5 et version of a piece is not a
finished product. Of course if you wanted to get ambitious and include
chordal spaces, you could get something which could then be refined in
a piano roll. It would be a whole new composing paradigm.

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

🔗hstraub64 <hstraub64@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "hstraub64" <hstraub64@t...>
wrote:
>
> > The programming was all done in csound - the orc is derived from a
> > french horn sound downloadable from
> > http://members.fortunecity.com/odradek5/pp/csound/index.html, while
> > the score was typed entirely be hand (phew!).
>
> This didn't work. If you know of high-quality, genuinely musical orcs,
> I would like to have them. I'm not happy with most of what I find.
>

Do you mean the link didn't work or the sound is bad?

In case it is the former: Actually, I saw now that just clicking on
the link does not work, because a comma is copied. Removing the comma
helps here - or clicking on

http://members.fortunecity.com/odradek5/pp/csound/index.html

There are 4 french horn sounds there, programmed quite differently. I
think one of them (the one I used) is indeed quite good.
--
Hans Straub

🔗hstraub64 <hstraub64@...>

First, thanks for the long reply!

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bryan
<chrismbryan@g...> wrote:
>
> If I could offer a slightly off-topic, and hopefully constructive,
> criticism as a fellow csounder:

Not off-topic at all!

> my issue with the piece wasn't
> anything to do with the pitch content, but that it was written for
> a "virtual instrument." As a listener, I was immediately aware
> that I was listening to something that was trying to sound like
> [a] human performer[s]... but very few electronic tools (and no
> csound instrument I've ever heard!) can really do that
> convincingly.

>
> I understand why you would want to be using the computer for this
> piece for tuing and technical reasons, but as a listener I also
> need an aesthetic reason: that could be an "inhuman" modification
> of the instrument, an addition of an electronic texture, or merely
> the placement of the original instrument in a virtual space, where
> panning and reverberation become part of the composition. My
> subconscious needs to know why you're using the computer :)

Yes, that is a serious point. Electronic instruments trying to
imitate real ones are almost necessarily behind the original...
Actually, I am just thinking it would be fun to have the piece
performed by real instruments - which would be more or less possible
if I had a separate quintet for every key. I do not even know if
alphorns are made in several keys - but it would be quite a show :-)

I will think that over. Actually, in the beginning (before I had
the "odradek institute" csound instrument brought to work) I had
some different, more electronic timbres. It was interesting to hear
how even then the overtone tuning created a distinctive alphorn
touch. The tuning seems to be a quite distinctive property of this
instrument.

>
> To bring the issue back on-topic, I've been learning recently that
> cool tuning does not = good composition. I've been so enthralled
> by the issue of tuning for the past couple years that I sort fo
> forgot about everything else, and it's just recently that I've been
> refocusing my attention on things like form and timbre. I know it
> sounds obvious, but it's been a big revelation for me!
>

Sounds obvious to me, too - dunno whether I am in this trap, too. I
tend to have a similar infatuation with mathematical methods in
music - but I have learnt meanwhile to dismiss stuff that is good
math but sounds bad...

>
> Doing scores by hand?! For goodness sake, use Blue (you can find
> it on csounds.com) and work in a (scala-compatible) piano roll!
>

Good to know. Does it support import of existing score files? And
more parameters for sound control? One appealing feature of csound
score files is the unlimited number of parameters.

But anyway, I am currently putting ever increasing importance to the
possibility to play real-time - and less interest for csound for
this reason. Direct rendering from midi files would be my method of
choice - csound is said to support this, but could not make it work
til now. And since I have a retunable synth, csound is getting even
less important. But still a good thing for really weird stuff...
--
Hans Straub

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

> Good to know. Does it support import of existing score files? And
> more parameters for sound control? One appealing feature of csound
> score files is the unlimited number of parameters.

Yes it imports, but it stays as a text score inside the graphical
timeline (which works like a meta-score). It allows parameter
templates for entering new notes (so you can just click the notes in
with the correct p-fields), but more importantly, it lets you modify
pfields for all existing notes in a piano roll with a single command,
so you can update the score when you modify your orchestra.

I think it has extensive support for real-time performance, including
buttons and knobs and stuff, but I haven't tried it myself.

Be sure to announce the final result of the piece! :)

-Chris

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i actually like the sound of C sound , in comparison with many other electronic sounds. It has its own quality , almost a sublimial background character i can't put my finger on that i find pleasant. something about the sawtooth or what ever it is.

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "hstraub64" <hstraub64@t...> wrote:
>
> >
>>Yes, that is a serious point. Electronic instruments trying to >>imitate real ones are almost necessarily behind the original... >> >>
>
>I don't object to them not sounding like acoustic intruments, but I
>would like them to sound musical. So few Csound instruments do. I'd
>like to get a collection which did.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Gene,

{you wrote...}
>I don't object to them not sounding like acoustic intruments, but I would >like them to sound musical. So few Csound instruments do.

Wouldn't you agree that, in the hands of a child or someone who knew nothing about how to play it properly, the finest violin merely emits noises? I certainly see you point in looking for pre-built instruments for Csound that will give you an innate musicality, but with not only most electronic instruments but instruments in general, it isn't the instrument that is musical but the performer. In the electronic world, *you* are the performer. However much time you'll put into the nuances of sequencing/composing/rendering is how much benefit you are likely to reap. Expecting to simply pour notes into a sound patch and get a finely honed musical performance is bound to disappoint.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...> wrote:

> Wouldn't you agree that, in the hands of a child or someone who knew
> nothing about how to play it properly, the finest violin merely emits
> noises?

I took violin for years and still emitted noises. My high school
orchesta teacher put me out in prominant display anyway, because I
looked like I knew what I was doing, and at least played in tune. With
Csound I can still play in tune, but looking like I know what I'm
doing is another matter. So far, I only get results I find
satisfactory from additive synthesis, and that's pretty limited. To be
convinced it's worth persuing, I'd like to hear examples of people who
really get it to work as I'd like it to. That wouldn't include Prent,
since he uses samples, not synthesized sound.

🔗monz <monz@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:

> i actually like the sound of C sound , in comparison with
> many other electronic sounds. It has its own quality , almost
> a sublimial background character i can't put my finger on that
> i find pleasant. something about the sawtooth or what ever it is.

Kraig, Csound is an enormously complex software synthesizer,
capable of producing any imaginable sound. Because of its
infinite possibilities, saying that "it has its own quality"
is meaningless,

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Bill Alves has used it quite sucessfullly.
Jon Szanto wrote:

>Gene,
>
>{you wrote...}
> >
>>To be convinced it's worth persuing, I'd like to hear examples of people who
>>really get it to work as I'd like it to. That wouldn't include Prent, >>since he uses samples, not synthesized sound.
>> >>
>
>Got it. Well, I'll keep my ears open, in case I hear any synthesis >direction that might work for you. Any reason you *don't* want to try >working with samples?
>
>Cheers,
>Jon >
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

no so
i can recognize it almost immediately.
just like someone can recognize a moog or an oberheim.
it has a personality.
just like every piece i put up with 'logic' does also.
I have been hearing about infinite possibilites since the 60's
and it still hasn't
and ain't gonna happen.

monz wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
>wrote:
>
> >
>>i actually like the sound of C sound , in comparison with
>>many other electronic sounds. It has its own quality , almost
>>a sublimial background character i can't put my finger on that
>>i find pleasant. something about the sawtooth or what ever it is.
>> >>
>
>
>
>Kraig, Csound is an enormously complex software synthesizer,
>capable of producing any imaginable sound. Because of its
>infinite possibilities, saying that "it has its own quality"
>is meaningless,
>
>
>
>-monz
>http://tonalsoft.com
>Tonescape microtonal music software
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Chris Bryan <chrismbryan@...>

> no so
> i can recognize it almost immediately.
> just like someone can recognize a moog or an oberheim.

The thing about csound is that it's more like a box of components,
from which the moog or oberheim could be built.

> it has a personality.

If it does, it would be more likely to be a compositional personality
stemming from the similarity in working environment... because the
actual sounds usually have nothing in common... sort of like comparing
an apple to a ferrari ;)

> I have been hearing about infinite possibilites since the 60's
> and it still hasn't
> and ain't gonna happen.

Theoretically, it is there. Realistically, it's not an infinity of
sound, but of algorithm. If you describe any synthesis algorithm,
csound can and will do it. Because it doesn't have to work in
real-time, there are essentially no processing restraints... as long
as you're patient! :)

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i am sure it is all the thing you say.
still i can recognize it and the basic sounds maybe since what most people use most.
your own for instance and say the 53 tone algorithmic piece someone hadup a while ago, or some of alves piece wit hvideo
i have logic 7 and dispite all the different sounds and samplers there is a constant that i think i can recognize

Chris Bryan wrote:

>>no so
>> i can recognize it almost immediately.
>> just like someone can recognize a moog or an oberheim.
>> >>
>
>The thing about csound is that it's more like a box of components,
>from which the moog or oberheim could be built.
>
> >
>>it has a personality.
>> >>
>
>If it does, it would be more likely to be a compositional personality
>stemming from the similarity in working environment... because the
>actual sounds usually have nothing in common... sort of like comparing
>an apple to a ferrari ;)
>
> >
>> I have been hearing about infinite possibilites since the 60's
>>and it still hasn't
>> and ain't gonna happen.
>> >>
>
>Theoretically, it is there. Realistically, it's not an infinity of
>sound, but of algorithm. If you describe any synthesis algorithm,
>csound can and will do it. Because it doesn't have to work in
>real-time, there are essentially no processing restraints... as long
>as you're patient! :)
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Gene,

{you wrote...}
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...> wrote:
>
> > Any reason you *don't* want to try working with samples?
>
>I'm already doing that using sf2 and Timidity, with results you don't much >like.

Then you'll have to define and explain what you mean by something that "sounds musical". If you are going to stick to the paradigm you are using with Timidity, and just pour a midi file into some sound generation device, nothing is going to change. The only thing that can affect that is if you take the time to sequence, edit, or program in the musicality you are looking for.

I really do mean this in as benign a way as possible, and not some kind of goading! I'd be curious as to what you thought Csound could bring to the table if you don't change your approach at all.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...> wrote:

> Then you'll have to define and explain what you mean by something that
> "sounds musical". If you are going to stick to the paradigm you are
using
> with Timidity, and just pour a midi file into some sound generation
device,
> nothing is going to change.

Yes, I practically begged and crawled to get you to stop bugging me,
but you refuse. Nothing changes. Do you wake up in the morning and ask
yourself how you can best spend the day trying to get people to *not*
compose microtonal music? Why did you found this group--to discourage
composers? Because that seems to be your aim.

GO AWAY! You made me stop composing for a year. What more do you want?

🔗Prent Rodgers <prentrodgers@...>

Gene,
I do use samples, but I also put a lot of work into the envelopes and
pitch shapes of each note. You would be surprised at how much
musicality is realized through subtle changes in amplitude after the
start of a note. I use Csound to apply complex sound envelopes that
have a distinct attack, variable sustain that might go up and down 5
times during a single note, and decay with the right amount of fade
before the next note. And the space between notes is carefully
managed, much like the articulation of a pianist. I change the
envelopes, often many times in the same phrase. I alter the timbre by
upsampling or downsampling from the "correct" samples. For example, I
might play middle C Midi using a sample recorded on an instrument at G
a fifth above the C, which results in a more mellow sound. Or G a
fourth below for a harsher sound. I switch between one and the other
inside a phrase to mimic the subtle timbre changes moving towards and
away from the bridge on a violin or guitar. There is a lot more to
making a "real" sounding instrument that finding a perfect sample
library.

That said, I am working on making the Iowa University sample library
compatible with Csound. It takes about 12-24 hours of processing per
note to find the optimum loop points (I do it while I sleep). Each
instrument was recorded with one semitone per sample. The flute and
trombone are especially charming. I can assure you that it will sound
lifeless and electronic unless you take care with the envelopes and
sample choices.

Prent Rodgers
"Fake but Accurate" music with Csound

> To be
> convinced it's worth persuing, I'd like to hear examples of people who
> really get it to work as I'd like it to. That wouldn't include Prent,
> since he uses samples, not synthesized sound.
>

🔗Dave Seidel <dave@...>

Hi Hans,

I like these pieces (including the instrument sounds). I'd only make one change: less (or no) vibrato. But that's based on my own personal taste. Looking forward to hearing the final piece!

- Dave

hstraub64 wrote:
> I thought I might post a link to my current microtonal work in > progress.
> > It is a piece for virtual alphorns. The alphorn, as some may know. > is a famous swiss folk instrument, consisting of a single long tube > and playing only tones of one harmonic overtone series - and that is > the scale that I use in the piece, too. The privilege of the virtual > alphorn over the real one is, of course, the possibility to play > more than one harmonic series - and, in consequence, the possibility > to modulate!
> > The beginning of the piece may sound a little like in some of the > folk pieces - but soon it drifts off, especially towards much use of > the weirder intervals of the harmonic series, such as the 11/8 and > 13/8.
> > The programming was all done in csound - the orc is derived from a > french horn sound downloadable from > http://members.fortunecity.com/odradek5/pp/csound/index.html, while > the score was typed entirely be hand (phew!). I am not so satisfied > with the expressivity yet - less the fault of the instrument than of > the fact that I have only partly mastered it so far! The piece is > also not finished yet (so don't worry about the sound quality and > its cureent rather abrupt ending). > Comments are welcome.
> > http://homepage.hispeed.ch/hsstraub/musik/zernez_pre_version_4.m3u
> http://homepage.hispeed.ch/hsstraub/musik/zernez_pre_version_4.mp3 > (3.4 MB)