people's perception of "microtonality"

The other interesting thing is that, people who don't know anything about
microtonality, think a microtonal scale like 17-EDO is going to sound
TOTALLY DIFFERENT from anything they've ever heard. They're shocked when
I tell/play them a major scale, and, sure there are the subtle
differences, but it sounds familiar.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Bailey <chris@m...>
wrote:
>
>
> The other interesting thing is that, people who don't know anything
about
> microtonality, think a microtonal scale like 17-EDO is going to sound
> TOTALLY DIFFERENT from anything they've ever heard. They're shocked
when
> I tell/play them a major scale, and, sure there are the subtle
> differences, but it sounds familiar.

Along these lines of stealth microtonality, Classical Music Archives
now has my version of the first two movements of the Brahms string
quartet #3 up, though sadly without any notification of the tuning
employed. I feel inspired by this to finish the piece. It's amazing
after all this time how many standard repertoire pieces don't seem to
have a good, or any, midi version, which gives scope for putting up
versions in something other than 12-et.

While my versions didn't get a recommended sticker, comparing them to
the other Brahms quartet movements on the archives is instructive.
Whatever my limitations as a sequencer, it seems to me that for a
piece like the Brahms, which is supposed to sound sweet, 12-et is
simply harsh and grating. By comparison the sound is downright ugly.
While the idea was not greeted with enthusiasm, it seems to me that it
is reasonable to suggest that 31-et versions are more worthy to be
considered authentic in a lot of music written after the meantone era,
such as string quartets by Brahms. The very style of the music
suggests the chords are supposed to sound sweetly harmonious, and it
hardly seems likely that performance practice was very close to
12-equal, which Schoenberg had to go to considerable lengths to get
people to play.

one of the reasons i stopped playing piano repertoire was brahms that to my ear just sounded terrible on the piano.
Is there any record of brahms possibly using something else as far as tuning.
especially in his chamber or solo music.
Even if he didn't he must have been hearing something different that what i would play

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

>
>
>Along these lines of stealth microtonality, Classical Music Archives
>now has my version of the first two movements of the Brahms string
>quartet #3 up, though sadly without any notification of the tuning
>employed. I feel inspired by this to finish the piece. It's amazing
>after all this time how many standard repertoire pieces don't seem to
>have a good, or any, midi version, which gives scope for putting up
>versions in something other than 12-et.
>
>While my versions didn't get a recommended sticker, comparing them to
>the other Brahms quartet movements on the archives is instructive.
>Whatever my limitations as a sequencer, it seems to me that for a
>piece like the Brahms, which is supposed to sound sweet, 12-et is
>simply harsh and grating. By comparison the sound is downright ugly.
>While the idea was not greeted with enthusiasm, it seems to me that it
>is reasonable to suggest that 31-et versions are more worthy to be
>considered authentic in a lot of music written after the meantone era,
>such as string quartets by Brahms. The very style of the music
>suggests the chords are supposed to sound sweetly harmonious, and it
>hardly seems likely that performance practice was very close to
>12-equal, which Schoenberg had to go to considerable lengths to get
>people to play. >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> Is there any record of brahms possibly using something else as far as
>tuning.
>especially in his chamber or solo music.

Ordinary composers do not specify the tuning of the ensembles
that play their music (unless they personally conduct or rehearse
the ensemble). In the various ensembles I was in in a past
life, we never used a piano to rehearse (though I'm sure some
do, this is, to my knowledge, very rare). The pianos of Brahms'
day were in mild well temperaments essentially equivalent to
12-equal unless you're listening for a difference.

-Carl

it is known that Chopin would tune his own instrument, possibly brahms,
in fact it seems most people would tune themselves if they were using it constantly.
Maybe he just tuned by ear, which means we will never know, unless someone reverse engineered the tuning

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>Is there any record of brahms possibly using something else as far as >>tuning.
>>especially in his chamber or solo music.
>> >>
>
>Ordinary composers do not specify the tuning of the ensembles
>that play their music (unless they personally conduct or rehearse
>the ensemble). In the various ensembles I was in in a past
>life, we never used a piano to rehearse (though I'm sure some
>do, this is, to my knowledge, very rare). The pianos of Brahms'
>day were in mild well temperaments essentially equivalent to
>12-equal unless you're listening for a difference.
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:

> Whatever my limitations as a sequencer, it seems to me that
> for a piece like the Brahms, which is supposed to sound sweet,
> 12-et is simply harsh and grating. By comparison the sound
> is downright ugly.
> While the idea was not greeted with enthusiasm, it seems to me
> that it is reasonable to suggest that 31-et versions are more
> worthy to be considered authentic in a lot of music written
> after the meantone era, such as string quartets by Brahms.
> The very style of the music suggests the chords are supposed
> to sound sweetly harmonious, and it hardly seems likely that
> performance practice was very close to 12-equal, which
> Schoenberg had to go to considerable lengths to get
> people to play.

I agree with you, Gene. I far prefer the 1/6-comma meantone
version i made of Beethoven's _Cavatina_, which you can
download here

http://tonalsoft.com/downloads/free-music.aspx

to the plain old 12-edo version. I've done small bits of
other Beethoven quartets in the same tuning -- and thanks
to Tonescape, i've also discovered that Beethoven had a
tendency, at least in his last set of quartets, to use
a 15-note pitch-set, according to the notation he used,
and that despite the wide variety of keys (Eb-major,
E-major, and Bb-minor) the structure of the tuning is
exactly the same in all the quartets movements i've done
so far.

I've also re-sequenced in Tonescape just a tiny piece of
Mahler's 7th, 1st movement, in 1/4-comma meantone, and
also far prefer that to the 12-edo version.

(I also prefer Gene's 12-tone bifrost retuning of the
Mahler 7th to 12-edo ... but Mahler's use of F-natural
and E-sharp within a few measures of each other in the
main theme convinces me that he intended for them to be
two different pitches, so a 12-tone set is not big enough.)

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:

> (I also prefer Gene's 12-tone bifrost retuning of the
> Mahler 7th to 12-edo ... but Mahler's use of F-natural
> and E-sharp within a few measures of each other in the
> main theme convinces me that he intended for them to be
> two different pitches, so a 12-tone set is not big enough.)

I may give a meantone version of Mahler a shot. If Wagner, why not Mahler?

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
.
> While the idea was not greeted with enthusiasm, it seems to me that it
> is reasonable to suggest that 31-et versions are more worthy to be
> considered authentic in a lot of music written after the meantone era,
> such as string quartets by Brahms. The very style of the music
> suggests the chords are supposed to sound sweetly harmonious, and it
> hardly seems likely that performance practice was very close to
> 12-equal, which Schoenberg had to go to considerable lengths to get
> people to play.

Performance practice could have been some form of adaptive JI or
adaptive tuning, at least for many instruments -- chords being sweetly
harmonious doesn't say anything about the horizontal (melodic)
intervals . . .

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

> Performance practice could have been some form of adaptive JI or
> adaptive tuning, at least for many instruments -- chords being sweetly
> harmonious doesn't say anything about the horizontal (melodic)
> intervals . . .

But the end result will probably be closer to 31 than 12.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...>
wrote:
>
> > Performance practice could have been some form of adaptive JI or
> > adaptive tuning, at least for many instruments -- chords being
sweetly
> > harmonious doesn't say anything about the horizontal (melodic)
> > intervals . . .
>
> But the end result will probably be closer to 31 than 12.

Not if the music makes use of enharmonic equivalence, which was very
common starting with Beethoven.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

> Not if the music makes use of enharmonic equivalence, which was very
> common starting with Beethoven.

Turning things into 31-et sometimes produces exotic results; a recent
example I've made is Hugo Reinhold's Impromptu Op 29 no 3:

http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/midi/impromptu.mid

I think this sounds very cool, but it doesn't sound authentic. You
know it's not a Romantic-era piano tuned in a way you'd expect. On the
other hand, sometimes the results are pretty stealth--the triads sound
smoother, but nothing exotic.

>> Not if the music makes use of enharmonic equivalence, which was very
>> common starting with Beethoven.
>
>Turning things into 31-et sometimes produces exotic results; a recent
>example I've made is Hugo Reinhold's Impromptu Op 29 no 3:
>
>http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/midi/impromptu.mid
>
>I think this sounds very cool, but it doesn't sound authentic. You
>know it's not a Romantic-era piano tuned in a way you'd expect. On the
>other hand, sometimes the results are pretty stealth--the triads sound
>smoother, but nothing exotic.

Though I enjoyed this, I think most classical listeners would tell
you it sounds out of tune.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
> wrote:
> >
> > But the end result will probably be closer to 31 than 12.
>
> Not if the music makes use of enharmonic equivalence, which
> was very common starting with Beethoven.

I've posted a comprehensive response to this on the
main tuning list.

/tuning/topicId_62918.html#62918

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software