Tonescape?

Is Tonescape still not available? I have written my own interface for
composing extended JI in Pure Data, which is fully functional. It
doesn't need any kind of scale to start out with, and any note can be
temporarily assigned to 1/1, so modulation, borrowed harmony, and
serial sequences are a piece of cake. I started it at the beginning
of this fall semester because Tonescape, which I was told would be
available in the summer, was still not released, and now I'm using it.
This is just my opinion, but I think the microtonal composing crowd
would be more interested in a useful interface that just works, even
if it doesn't have pretty knobs or it has a bug or two. If there was
some useful alternative, then I wouldn't mind waiting for bugs to be
fixed, but there isn't unless you want to write your own program,
which is what I did. It doesn't do backflips, but I can insert any
just ratio on any beat, at any tempo, and save it. How much more
difficult can it be?

-Chuckk

>Is Tonescape still not available? I have written my own interface for
>composing extended JI in Pure Data, which is fully functional. It
>doesn't need any kind of scale to start out with, and any note can be
>temporarily assigned to 1/1, so modulation, borrowed harmony, and
>serial sequences are a piece of cake. I started it at the beginning
>of this fall semester because Tonescape, which I was told would be
>available in the summer, was still not released, and now I'm using it.
>This is just my opinion, but I think the microtonal composing crowd
>would be more interested in a useful interface that just works, even
>if it doesn't have pretty knobs or it has a bug or two. If there was
>some useful alternative, then I wouldn't mind waiting for bugs to be
>fixed, but there isn't unless you want to write your own program,
>which is what I did. It doesn't do backflips, but I can insert any
>just ratio on any beat, at any tempo, and save it. How much more
>difficult can it be?

Screen shots?

-Carl

Hi Chuckk,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Chuckk Hubbard"
<BadMuthaHubbard@h...> wrote:

> Is Tonescape still not available?

It's still in alpha phase. We have a new alpha version coming
out very soon, probably by the end of December.

> I have written my own interface for composing extended JI
> in Pure Data, which is fully functional. It doesn't need
> any kind of scale to start out with, and any note can be
> temporarily assigned to 1/1, so modulation, borrowed harmony,
> and serial sequences are a piece of cake. I started it
> at the beginning of this fall semester because Tonescape,
> which I was told would be available in the summer, was
> still not released, and now I'm using it.

At the time you inquired about it, summer 2005 was my
estimate on when we'd have Tonescape out. As usual with
new projects, we're behind. But we do plan to release
version 1.0 by the end of February 2006, and we're working
hard to stick to that release date.

We want to have people on our alpha-test team who are
serious about using Tonescape to compose microtonal music
(as opposed to those who just want to play around with
tunings) -- so if that description fits you, contact me
off-list and we'll discuss getting you on the team.

> This is just my opinion, but I think the microtonal
> composing crowd would be more interested in a useful
> interface that just works, even if it doesn't have
> pretty knobs or it has a bug or two. If there was
> some useful alternative, then I wouldn't mind waiting
> for bugs to be fixed, but there isn't unless you want
> to write your own program, which is what I did. It
> doesn't do backflips, but I can insert any just ratio
> on any beat, at any tempo, and save it. How much more
> difficult can it be?

Tonescape does a lot more than allow you to insert
just ratios. It allows you to construct any kind
of tuning you can imagine, draws rotatable 3-D
lattice diagrams of the tuning, and allows you to
export your Tonescape native files to MIDI, mp3, Csound,
etc.

Anyway, as i said, if you (or anyone else here) are
seriously interested in being an alpha-tester, let me
know off-list and we'll go from there.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Monz,

{you wrote...}
>Tonescape does a lot more than allow you to insert just ratios. It allows >you to construct any kind of tuning you can imagine, draws rotatable 3-D >lattice diagrams of the tuning, and allows you to export your Tonescape >native files to MIDI, mp3, Csound, etc.

Since you've decided to add a lot of functionality that you hadn't initially mentioned for the first release, are you incorporating any form of MIDI input (i.e. anything other than piano roll to compose in)?

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...> wrote:

> Since you've decided to add a lot of functionality that you hadn't
> initially mentioned for the first release, are you incorporating any
form
> of MIDI input (i.e. anything other than piano roll to compose in)?

I'm planning on giving composing in Tonescape another shot with the
next release, and additions in the area of composing tools would be
interesting.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>
> Hi Chuckk,
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Chuckk Hubbard"
> <BadMuthaHubbard@h...> wrote:
>
> > I have written my own interface for composing extended JI
> > in Pure Data, which is fully functional. It doesn't need
> > any kind of scale to start out with, and any note can be
> > temporarily assigned to 1/1, so modulation, borrowed harmony,
> > and serial sequences are a piece of cake. I started it
> > at the beginning of this fall semester because Tonescape,
> > which I was told would be available in the summer, was
> > still not released, and now I'm using it.
>

>
> > This is just my opinion, but I think the microtonal
> > composing crowd would be more interested in a useful
> > interface that just works, even if it doesn't have
> > pretty knobs or it has a bug or two. If there was
> > some useful alternative, then I wouldn't mind waiting
> > for bugs to be fixed, but there isn't unless you want
> > to write your own program, which is what I did. It
> > doesn't do backflips, but I can insert any just ratio
> > on any beat, at any tempo, and save it. How much more
> > difficult can it be?
>
>
>
> Tonescape does a lot more than allow you to insert
> just ratios. It allows you to construct any kind
> of tuning you can imagine, draws rotatable 3-D
> lattice diagrams of the tuning, and allows you to
> export your Tonescape native files to MIDI, mp3, Csound,
> etc.

I haven't seen it yet, but if you need to construct a tuning before
composing, does that mean it doesn't allow you to insert any just
ratio...? This is what my Pure Data patch does, no predetermined
scale necessary.

>
> Anyway, as i said, if you (or anyone else here) are
> seriously interested in being an alpha-tester, let me
> know off-list and we'll go from there.

I'll contact you. What I was getting at was kind of that it would
be cool to at least have a working program, without all the bells
and whistles, rather than having to wait until it's just right
before one can use it. But, I'm not a software developer, just a
composer, so there are probably things I'm not considering.

-Chuckk

>
>
>
> -monz
> http://tonalsoft.com
> Tonescape microtonal music software
>

Chuckk Hubbard wrote:

>
>I haven't seen it yet, but if you need to construct a tuning before >composing, does that mean it doesn't allow you to insert any just >ratio...? This is what my Pure Data patch does, no predetermined >scale necessary.
> >
This brings up a question i have about composers in general, do they all work from top down ideas are are they composers who work from bottom up constructions.
This does not mean that a top down structure might not call upon a new tone or few ( although i have to admit i have never experienced this myself)

I am also curious if Monz too works top down also

>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

KG,

{you wrote...}
>This brings up a question i have about composers in general, do they all >work from top down ideas are are they composers who work from bottom up >constructions.

But don't you think there are a myriad of variations on how a composer might work (even what a composer really is)? Not just with tunings, but form, purpose, methods, etc, etc. Which is why I think it important to illuminate the many ways people go about doing this creative act, and trying to make the tools for composing as open-minded, if you will, as possible.

>I am also curious if Monz too works top down also

I'm willing to bet that the Tonescape paradigm is pretty much the way he has always wanted to work. Wish it worked for me, and I have hopes it might some day.

Cheers,
Jon

> This brings up a question i have about composers in general, do they all
> work from top down ideas are are they composers who work from bottom up
> constructions.

I don't know how to interpret "bottom-up" and "top-down" in this context.
What do you mean?

Rick

I am positive there are variations to composers and how they work, which is why i ask.
I am very interested in this
I don't know anyone who approaches it like me for instance.
But so far i have not ran across a composer who works
bottom up, completely. The idea of such is very fascinating as it would take a great act of will, to do so.
this is kind of what improvisation is, but more often than not people don't really improvise as much as they shuffle material that have worked out before. not to say that this act doesn't cause new things to happen
Jon Szanto wrote:

>KG,
>
>{you wrote...}
> >
>>This brings up a question i have about composers in general, do they all >>work from top down ideas are are they composers who work from bottom up >>constructions.
>> >>
>
>But don't you think there are a myriad of variations on how a composer >might work (even what a composer really is)? Not just with tunings, but >form, purpose, methods, etc, etc. Which is why I think it important to >illuminate the many ways people go about doing this creative act, and >trying to make the tools for composing as open-minded, if you will, as >possible.
>
> >
>>I am also curious if Monz too works top down also
>> >>
>
>I'm willing to bet that the Tonescape paradigm is pretty much the way he >has always wanted to work. Wish it worked for me, and I have hopes it might >some day.
>
>Cheers,
>Jon >
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Sorry to be obscure.
With top down one has a concept of a guiding plan as to how the composition will go.
or maybe the correct idea would be a priori ideas that might or might not wholly exist outside time. (structural forms in example)

with bottom up the composer would start with a germ of an idea ( such as a motif) that would grow like a seed into the full composition.
The latter i have never been able to do, as far as starting at the beginning and going all the way through, unless i already have some idea of where i am going.
Rick McGowan wrote:

>>This brings up a question i have about composers in general, do they all >>work from top down ideas are are they composers who work from bottom up >>constructions.
>> >>
>
>I don't know how to interpret "bottom-up" and "top-down" in this context. >What do you mean?
>
> Rick
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Hi Chuckk,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Chuckk Hubbard"
<BadMuthaHubbard@h...> wrote:
>
> I'll contact you. What I was getting at was kind of
> that it would be cool to at least have a working program,
> without all the bells and whistles, rather than having
> to wait until it's just right before one can use it.
> But, I'm not a software developer, just a composer,
> so there are probably things I'm not considering.

We've already corresponded off-list regarding Tonescape,
so i just wanted to address this here.

I've been working on creating my "dream" microtonal
composition software since 1984, so what has now become
Tonescape has been in development for over two decades now.

But along the way, i did create little programs which
could do small parts of the whole package, and one of
them is a handy little utility i wrote for Cakewalk
called "micro.cal":

http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/micro/micro.htm

It allows you to step-time enter just ratios into
a Cakewalk score.

Since really serious development of Tonescape got
under way in 2002, i haven't needed Cakewalk anymore,
so i never upgraded to its replacement Sonar, so i
don't have any idea if micro.cal works in Sonar or
indeed if Sonar even uses Cakewalk Application Language.
But if you have the old Cakewalk program from when the
company's name was Twelve Tone Systems, it will work.
I was using Cakewalk 9.0 and 9.3 when i developed micro.cal.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Hi Chuckk and Kraig,

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:

> Chuckk Hubbard wrote:
>
> >
> > I haven't seen it yet, but if you need to construct a
> > tuning before composing, does that mean it doesn't allow
> > you to insert any just ratio...? This is what my
> > Pure Data patch does, no predetermined scale necessary.
> >
> >
> This brings up a question i have about composers in general,
> do they all work from top down ideas are are they composers
> who work from bottom up constructions.
> This does not mean that a top down structure might not call
> upon a new tone or few ( although i have to admit i have
> never experienced this myself)

Even tho Tonescape has been under development for a long
time, and we are working hard to make version 1.0 a
really professional application, the initial offering
is still going to be a *long* way from what we plan to
eventually make it into.

So for version 1.0, the answer is yes, you must have
a tuning file already created in order to compose a piece.
For version 1.0, the tuning is embedded into the piece.
For later versions, we will allow changing the tuning,
and also working with multiple tunings in the same piece.

We will be bundling a whole pile of tunings with Tonescape,
so you'll have a lot of different tunings available to
work with as soon as you install the program. And if you
want to work with a small tuning which is a subset of a
larger one, it's a simple matter to opening the superset
tuning, delete the notes you don't need, and save the subset
as a separate tuning.

So, for example, if you want a certain 11-limit JI tuning
whose pitches are all included in Partch's 43-note tuning,
you can simply open the Partch tuning file and derive your
new JI tuning from that.

It's also easy to quickly create a tuning by having
Tonescape insert large blocks of notes (i.e., an Euler-genus),
then you can happily delete note from that.

> I am also curious if Monz too works top down also

It depends ... i compose music in lots of different ways.

Often, the idea comes to my mind, and i "compose" a
big chunk of the piece right in my head before i ever
make any of it audible.

Other times, i'll be practicing the piano and hit an
interesting chord (often by making a mistake) which then
triggers the creativity, and i'll just compose right at
the piano.

Other times, noodling around in Tonescape, i just open
up a certain tuning and start playing around with the
mouse.

And of course, i improvise sometimes too, with Jonathan
Glaser, Brink, Bill Wesley, etc.

I guess most often my musical ideas pop into my mind,
so i suppose i'm mostly a "top-down" composer.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@u...> wrote:
>
> > This brings up a question i have about composers in general,
> > do they all work from top down ideas are are they composers
> > who work from bottom up constructions.
>
> I don't know how to interpret "bottom-up" and "top-down" in
> this context.
> What do you mean?

Yes, i responded to Kraig's question by saying that my
composing style is probably mostly "top-down", but then
realized that i too wasn't sure how to interpret those
terms.

Anyway, i gave a full description of how i work.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:

> I guess most often my musical ideas pop into my mind,
> so i suppose i'm mostly a "top-down" composer.

Wouldn't that be more "bottom-up"? Or do the "musical ideas" that pop
into your mind consist of large-scale formal structures, with the small-
scale details waiting to be filled in?