PC-Keyboard music

The Thummtronics/Thumsolfa powerpoints got me pretty excited, but I'm
running into roadblocks built out of my own ignorance. What I want to
do is map the alphanumeric keys of my keyboard to pitches, be they
MIDI signals to my SB Live soundcard or samples in some hideous kluge
that I slap together in C.

AnalogX makes a program that alows PC-keyboard-to-midi mapping, and
FTS allows keyboard input, is there a way to combine the two, or
arbitrarily remap the keyboard in Scala or FTS? I'm jobless and in
school right now, so freeware/shareware/makeityourselfware would be
appreciated.

--
~Tristan Parker
http://www.myspace.com/rozencrantz
"Western music is fast because it's out of tune"
-- Terry Riley

> What I want to
> do is map the alphanumeric keys of my keyboard to pitches, be they
> MIDI signals to my SB Live soundcard or samples in some hideous kluge
> that I slap together in C.

I assume you're running windows? On linux, there's a great little
program called "vkeybd" which does the trick very nicely, and you can
configure it to assign any qwerty key to any midi note #. I did a
quick google, but couldn't find a windows port. I found a source
package:

http://www.altlinux.com/index.php?module=sisyphus&package=vkeybd

I don't know how hard it would be to port over. You would need a
windows port of X11 (I think that's not hard) and something like a
windows port of JACK (maybe harder) to route the midi to whatever
else.

If you're a jobless student... maybe it's time you gave linux a try anyway ;)

-Chris

>
> AnalogX makes a program that alows PC-keyboard-to-midi mapping, and
> FTS allows keyboard input, is there a way to combine the two, or
> arbitrarily remap the keyboard in Scala or FTS? I'm jobless and in
> school right now, so freeware/shareware/makeityourselfware would be
> appreciated.
>
> --
> ~Tristan Parker
> http://www.myspace.com/rozencrantz
> "Western music is fast because it's out of tune"
> -- Terry Riley

Rozencrantz the Sane (sez you!),

You wrote:
> > What I want to
> > do is map the alphanumeric keys of my keyboard to pitches, be they
> > MIDI signals to my SB Live soundcard or samples in some hideous kluge
> > that I slap together in C.

Chris answered:
> I assume you're running windows? On linux, there's a great little
> program called "vkeybd" which does the trick very nicely, and you can
> configure it to assign any qwerty key to any midi note #. I did a
> quick google, but couldn't find a windows port. I found a source
> package:
>
> http://www.altlinux.com/index.php?module=sisyphus&package=vkeybd
>
> I don't know how hard it would be to port over. You would need a
> windows port of X11 (I think that's not hard) and something like a
> windows port of JACK (maybe harder) to route the midi to whatever
> else.
>
> If you're a jobless student... maybe it's time you gave linux a try anyway
;)

Chris is right about the last!

Anyway, there's also midikb, which is freely available for Linux,
and used to be available for DOS (you can run it in a command
window under Windows XP), but I couldn't track one down just
now. Let me tell you, trying to 'perform' music on a keyboard
designed for typing is a REAL challenge! I may have a copy of
midikb for DOS around somewhere if you want me to hunt it up
- it's quite small.

Regards,
Yahya

--
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The main MMM page at Yahoo carries the following description:

Making Microtonal Music, a forum dedicated to just that, is
undergoing some changes. Still open, but in transformation...

I believe this description has been unchanged for at least several
months -- perhaps several years, for all I know. It strikes me as a
bit intimidating. Should it be updated?

- Rich Holmes

Rich,

{you wrote...}
>The main MMM page at Yahoo carries the following description:
>
> Making Microtonal Music, a forum dedicated to just that, is
> undergoing some changes. Still open, but in transformation...
>
>I believe this description has been unchanged for at least several
>months -- perhaps several years, for all I know. It strikes me as a
>bit intimidating. Should it be updated?

Not sure what is intimidating, but this dates back to when I handed the reins over to Prent. I know it was his intention to have a slightly different wording for the mission statement, but just fell through the cracks. The focus should always be, however, on the Making of Microtonal Music - there are other places for theory, history, research, etc.

Prent?

Cheers,
Jon

Jon Szanto wrote:

>Rich,
>
>{you wrote...}
> >
>>The main MMM page at Yahoo carries the following description:
>>
>> Making Microtonal Music, a forum dedicated to just that, is
>> undergoing some changes. Still open, but in transformation...
>>
>>I believe this description has been unchanged for at least several
>>months -- perhaps several years, for all I know. It strikes me as a
>>bit intimidating. Should it be updated?
>> >>
>
>Not sure what is intimidating, but this dates back to when I handed the >reins over to Prent. I know it was his intention to have a slightly >different wording for the mission statement, but just fell through the >cracks. The focus should always be, however, on the Making of Microtonal >Music - there are other places for theory, history, research, etc.
>
>Prent?
>
>Cheers,
>Jon >
It's a slow transformation. Works for me.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rozencrantz the Sane
<rozencrantz@g...> wrote:
> AnalogX makes a program that alows PC-keyboard-to-midi mapping, and
> FTS allows keyboard input, is there a way to combine the two, or
> arbitrarily remap the keyboard in Scala or FTS?

Yes it's possible in Scala, FTS too I think. To see how, open the
chromatic clavier, click on the help button and scroll to the bottom.
There's an example file keymap.par that you can edit. When you edit
the scala.ini file, you need to close the program first. So there's no
support for this feature in the user interface, because I wanted to
see if someone would use it in the first place.

Manuel

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> It's a slow transformation. Works for me.

Yeah, and you do all that slow-motion music, too. :)

Cheers,
Jon

Jon Szanto wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> >
>>It's a slow transformation. Works for me.
>> >>
>
>Yeah, and you do all that slow-motion music, too. :)
>
>Cheers,
>Jon
>

"Slow is good." - Pandit Pran Nath

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

db,

{you wrote...}
>"Slow is good." - Pandit Pran Nath

Ahhh, the competing sensibilities of art:

"Fast is good, loud is better, fast and loud is best!" - Prof. Peter Schikele

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:

Really. How long has the diamond marimba shot been up there? It's
cool!

BTW, I rather (!) liked Prent's little DM applet over at his site.
Check it out, man! If he gets that looper cookin', it's gonna be tons
of fun!

P

> It's a slow transformation. Works for me.
>
>
> --
> * David Beardsley
> * microtonal guitar
> * http://biink.com/db
>

Rich,
I didn't know we had a group description on the Yahoo page. I just updated it with something a bit more descriptive. Thanks for pointing this out. I was just playing around with the "Management" page on the group last week and found a way to post a photo. I put up one of the Partch Diamond Marimba. Now the description of the group reads as follows:

"Making Microtonal Music, a forum dedicated to composers, performers, and listeners of microtonal music. Microtonality explores tuning systems that are different from the 12-tone to the octave equal temperament that has dominated music for the last three centuries. This forum welcomes participation from all interested parties at any level of exploration."

I'd be happy to change it to something more descriptive. Suggestions welcome.

Prent Rodgers
List Mom

Music that's "Fake but Accurate"!
Web page: http://prodgers13.home.comcast.net
Podcast: http://podcast1024.libsyn.com
Another Podcast: http://BumperMusic.blogspot.com
Music: http://www.soundclick.com/PrentRodgers

-----------------------------------------------------
The main MMM page at Yahoo carries the following description:

Making Microtonal Music, a forum dedicated to just that, is
undergoing some changes. Still open, but in transformation...

I believe this description has been unchanged for at least several
months -- perhaps several years, for all I know. It strikes me as a
bit intimidating. Should it be updated?

>
> Yes it's possible in Scala, FTS too I think. To see how, open the
> chromatic clavier, click on the help button and scroll to the bottom.
> There's an example file keymap.par that you can edit. When you edit
> the scala.ini file, you need to close the program first. So there's no
> support for this feature in the user interface, because I wanted to
> see if someone would use it in the first place.
>
> Manuel

Thanks a lot, I'm going to try that out right now.

> If you're a jobless student... maybe it's time you gave linux a try anyway

That would be a great idea, and I've considered it often, but I'm
using the family computer and I'm the only one willing to learn a
whole new OS. Thanks for the advice though, and I'll remember it if
and when I get Linux.

--
~Tristan Parker
http://www.myspace.com/rozencrantz
"Western music is fast because it's out of tune"
-- Terry Riley

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Prent Rodgers
<prentrodgers@c...> wrote:
>
> Rich,
> I didn't know we had a group description on the Yahoo page. I just
> updated it with something a bit more descriptive. Thanks for
pointing
> this out. I was just playing around with the "Management" page on
the
> group last week and found a way to post a photo. I put up one of
the
> Partch Diamond Marimba. Now the description of the group reads as
follows:
>
> "Making Microtonal Music, a forum dedicated to composers,
performers,
> and listeners of microtonal music. Microtonality explores tuning
systems
> that are different from the 12-tone to the octave equal temperament
that
> has dominated music for the last three centuries.

I think it would be much more accurate to halve this number (150
years), and throw "Western" in there for good measure.

(Mozart taught his violin students how to play 20 different pitches
per octave, in accordance with the understanding of 'correct tuning'
(today we call it meantone) that had been in place for some three
centuries (really this time).)

> This forum welcomes
> participation from all interested parties at any level of
exploration."
>
> I'd be happy to change it to something more descriptive.
Suggestions
> welcome.
>
> Prent Rodgers
> List Mom
>
> Music that's "Fake but Accurate"!
> Web page: http://prodgers13.home.comcast.net
> Podcast: http://podcast1024.libsyn.com
> Another Podcast: http://BumperMusic.blogspot.com
> Music: http://www.soundclick.com/PrentRodgers
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> The main MMM page at Yahoo carries the following description:
>
> Making Microtonal Music, a forum dedicated to just that, is
> undergoing some changes. Still open, but in transformation...
>
> I believe this description has been unchanged for at least several
> months -- perhaps several years, for all I know. It strikes me as a
> bit intimidating. Should it be updated?
>

where is the reference for this

Paul Erlich wrote:

>
>
>(Mozart taught his violin students how to play 20 different pitches >per octave, in accordance with the understanding of 'correct tuning' >(today we call it meantone) that had been in place for some three >centuries (really this time).)
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Chesnut, John Hind. 1977.
"Mozart's teaching of intonation",
Journal of the American Musicological Society
vol. 30 no. 2 [summer], pp. 254-271.

I've lost count of how many times this has come up on the tuning list.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
> where is the reference for this
>
> Paul Erlich wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >(Mozart taught his violin students how to play 20 different
pitches
> >per octave, in accordance with the understanding of 'correct
tuning'
> >(today we call it meantone) that had been in place for some three
> >centuries (really this time).)
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

sorry somehow i missed it ,
is it pretty much accepted as fact or are there dissenting opinions of worth

Paul Erlich wrote:

>Chesnut, John Hind. 1977. >"Mozart's teaching of intonation", >Journal of the American Musicological Society >vol. 30 no. 2 [summer], pp. 254-271. >
>I've lost count of how many times this has come up on the tuning list.
>
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
> >
>>where is the reference for this
>>
>>Paul Erlich wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>(Mozart taught his violin students how to play 20 different >>> >>>
>pitches > >
>>>per octave, in accordance with the understanding of 'correct >>> >>>
>tuning' > >
>>>(today we call it meantone) that had been in place for some three >>>centuries (really this time).)
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>-- >>Kraig Grady
>>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>>The Wandering Medicine Show
>>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>>
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

It's pretty clear in the surviving notebook of one of Mozart's violin
students -- G# is to be played a little lower than Ab, etc., and
these differences are to be practiced. There's no real ambiguity
there. The article shows how this tidbit fits comfortably with the
teachings of Mozart's contemporaries and father. There were
dissenting opinions on how keyboards are to be tuned, and
particularly on whether or not certain figured-bass notes should be
omitted to avoid clashes with the string instruments, but for the
string instruments the idea of 'correct' intonation being what we now
call (some variety of) extended meantone appears to have been
universal at the time (but not for much longer).

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
> sorry somehow i missed it ,
> is it pretty much accepted as fact or are there dissenting
opinions of
> worth
>
> Paul Erlich wrote:
>
> >Chesnut, John Hind. 1977.
> >"Mozart's teaching of intonation",
> >Journal of the American Musicological Society
> >vol. 30 no. 2 [summer], pp. 254-271.
> >
> >I've lost count of how many times this has come up on the tuning
list.
> >
> >
> >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady
<kraiggrady@a...>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >>where is the reference for this
> >>
> >>Paul Erlich wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>(Mozart taught his violin students how to play 20 different
> >>>
> >>>
> >pitches
> >
> >
> >>>per octave, in accordance with the understanding of 'correct
> >>>
> >>>
> >tuning'
> >
> >
> >>>(today we call it meantone) that had been in place for some
three
> >>>centuries (really this time).)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>--
> >>Kraig Grady
> >>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> >>The Wandering Medicine Show
> >>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los
Angeles
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005, "Paul Erlich" wrote:
>
> It's pretty clear in the surviving notebook of one of Mozart's violin
> students -- G# is to be played a little lower than Ab, etc., ...

Fascinating! My violin teacher certainly never taught me
any such thing, yet that's exactly (*) what I always did as
an 11- to 12-year-old when playing a solo part, since that's
where my intuition lead me. Since that time, I haven't had a
playable violin, so I can't be sure what I'd play now.

As I see it, that 'G# is to be played a little lower than Ab, etc.'
is another way of saying that the chromatic alteration of any
note produces a pitch which is closer to the unaltered note
than to the exact midpoint between two nominals.

(*) of course, I don't know that the pitches I played were
exactly the ones that Mozart taught. I'd hazard a guess
that I was trying to play a rational interval, though.

> ... and
> these differences are to be practiced. There's no real ambiguity
> there. The article shows how this tidbit fits comfortably with the
> teachings of Mozart's contemporaries and father. There were
> dissenting opinions on how keyboards are to be tuned, and
> particularly on whether or not certain figured-bass notes should be
> omitted to avoid clashes with the string instruments, but for the
> string instruments the idea of 'correct' intonation being what we now
> call (some variety of) extended meantone ...

Paul, could you elaborate a little please? In particular, do
we know with any certainty what intervals Mozart taught
as G# and Ab?

> ... appears to have been
> universal at the time (but not for much longer).
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
> wrote:
> > sorry somehow i missed it ,
> > is it pretty much accepted as fact or are there dissenting
> opinions of
> > worth
> >
> > Paul Erlich wrote:
> > >Chesnut, John Hind. 1977.
> > >"Mozart's teaching of intonation",
> > >Journal of the American Musicological Society
> > >vol. 30 no. 2 [summer], pp. 254-271.
> > >
> > >I've lost count of how many times this has come up on the tuning
> list.
> > >
> > >--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady
> <kraiggrady@a...>
> > >wrote:
> > >>where is the reference for this
> > >>
> > >>Paul Erlich wrote:
> > >>>(Mozart taught his violin students how to play 20 different
> > >pitches
> > >>>per octave, in accordance with the understanding of 'correct
> > >tuning'
> > >>>(today we call it meantone) that had been in place for some
> three
> > >>>centuries (really this time).)

Regards,
Yahya

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.5/177 - Release Date: 21/11/05

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...>
wrote:

> Paul, could you elaborate a little please? In particular, do
> we know with any certainty what intervals Mozart taught
> as G# and Ab?

If we take certain theoretical statements literally, presumably more
literally than Mozart took them, you can conclude that C:G# should be
an interval of 2^(36/55), and C:Ab an interval of 2^(37/55), a
difference of 2^(1/55), which is a commas worth. Probably the intent
was a meantone around 1/6 comma, as closing the circle of fifths at 55
notes was not a consideration.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz"
<yahya@m...> wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005, "Paul Erlich" wrote:
> >
> > It's pretty clear in the surviving notebook of one of Mozart's
violin
> > students -- G# is to be played a little lower than Ab, etc., ...
>
> Fascinating! My violin teacher certainly never taught me
> any such thing,

Unless you are well over 150 years old, this is no surprise! So-
called 'expressive' intonation, which reverses these directions, has
been far more common pedagogy since.

> yet that's exactly (*) what I always did as
> an 11- to 12-year-old when playing a solo part, since that's
> where my intuition lead me. Since that time, I haven't had a
> playable violin, so I can't be sure what I'd play now.
>
> As I see it, that 'G# is to be played a little lower than Ab, etc.'
> is another way of saying that the chromatic alteration of any
> note produces a pitch which is closer to the unaltered note
> than to the exact midpoint between two nominals.
>
> (*) of course, I don't know that the pitches I played were
> exactly the ones that Mozart taught. I'd hazard a guess
> that I was trying to play a rational interval, though.

Well, E-G#-B is going to be a lot closer to a 4:5:6 chord than E-Ab-B
if you follow Mozart's (meantone) instructions.

> > ... and
> > these differences are to be practiced. There's no real ambiguity
> > there. The article shows how this tidbit fits comfortably with
the
> > teachings of Mozart's contemporaries and father. There were
> > dissenting opinions on how keyboards are to be tuned, and
> > particularly on whether or not certain figured-bass notes should
be
> > omitted to avoid clashes with the string instruments, but for the
> > string instruments the idea of 'correct' intonation being what we
now
> > call (some variety of) extended meantone ...
>
> Paul, could you elaborate a little please? In particular, do
> we know with any certainty what intervals Mozart taught
> as G# and Ab?

These are pitches, not intervals. We know that the difference between
the two was supposed to be a 'comma' (we don't know which kind of
comma), so the relevant variety of extended meantone would have to be
fairly close to 1/6-comma meantone. This was also how Telemann
reckoned enharmonic intervals:

http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Ehuygensf/doc/telemann.html

Maybe we should move this discussion to the tuning list?

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, "Gene Ward Smith" wrote:
>
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com,
> "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:
>
> > Paul, could you elaborate a little please? In particular, do
> > we know with any certainty what intervals Mozart taught
> > as G# and Ab?
>
> If we take certain theoretical statements literally, presumably more
> literally than Mozart took them, you can conclude that C:G# should be
> an interval of 2^(36/55), and C:Ab an interval of 2^(37/55), a
> difference of 2^(1/55), which is a commas worth. Probably the intent
> was a meantone around 1/6 comma, as closing the circle of fifths at 55
> notes was not a consideration.

Thank you, Gene.

It's interesting that a sixth-comma meantone would
lead to a comma difference between the two. If I've
got my facts straight, a cycle of 12 perfect fifths
leads to a similar difference:

(Name?:)
3^12 / 2^19 = 531441 / 524288 = 1.0136432
cents(3^12 / 2^19) = 1200 * log2(1.0136432)
= 23.4598998

Pythagorean Comma:
81 / 80 = 1.0125
cents(81 / 80) = 1200 *log2(1.0125)
= 21.5062896

These two ratios differ by just under 2 cents.

Regards,
Yahya

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.7/180 - Release Date: 23/11/05

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...>
wrote:

> It's interesting that a sixth-comma meantone would
> lead to a comma difference between the two. If I've
> got my facts straight, a cycle of 12 perfect fifths
> leads to a similar difference:
>
> (Name?:)
> 3^12 / 2^19 = 531441 / 524288 = 1.0136432
> cents(3^12 / 2^19) = 1200 * log2(1.0136432)
> = 23.4598998

This is actually the Pythagorean comma, or diatonic comma.

> Pythagorean Comma:
> 81 / 80 = 1.0125
> cents(81 / 80) = 1200 *log2(1.0125)
> = 21.5062896

This is the comma of Didymus, or syntonic comma.

> These two ratios differ by just under 2 cents.

Which is the shisma; its also very close to the amount by which the
fifth of 12-equal is flat.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz"
<yahya@m...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005, "Gene Ward Smith" wrote:
> >
> > --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com,
> > "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:
> >
> > > Paul, could you elaborate a little please? In particular, do
> > > we know with any certainty what intervals Mozart taught
> > > as G# and Ab?
> >
> > If we take certain theoretical statements literally, presumably
more
> > literally than Mozart took them, you can conclude that C:G#
should be
> > an interval of 2^(36/55), and C:Ab an interval of 2^(37/55), a
> > difference of 2^(1/55), which is a commas worth. Probably the
intent
> > was a meantone around 1/6 comma, as closing the circle of fifths
at 55
> > notes was not a consideration.
>
> Thank you, Gene.
>
> It's interesting that a sixth-comma meantone would
> lead to a comma difference between the two. If I've
> got my facts straight, a cycle of 12 perfect fifths
> leads to a similar difference:

But in the opposite direction!

> (Name?:)

This is the Pythagorean comma:

> 3^12 / 2^19 = 531441 / 524288 = 1.0136432
> cents(3^12 / 2^19) = 1200 * log2(1.0136432)
> = 23.4598998
>
> Pythagorean Comma:

This is not the Pythagorean comma, it's the syntonic comma:

> 81 / 80 = 1.0125
> cents(81 / 80) = 1200 *log2(1.0125)
> = 21.5062896
>
> These two ratios differ by just under 2 cents.]

Slow down, Yahya. In Pythagorean tuning, G# is *higher* than Ab by
the Pythagorean comma, which you calculated above as ~23.46 cents. If
you subtract 1/6 syntonic comma from each of the 12 fifths, hence
effecting 1/6-comma meantone, the difference will be reduced by 2
syntonic commas, so G# will now be higher than Ab by

23.4598998 - 2*21.5062896 = -19.55 cents;

in other words, Ab is now *higher* than G# by +19.55 cents (ratio
2048/2025, the "diaschisma").

So in the context we were discussing, the difference is not 2 cents
as you said but two syntonic commas or about 43 cents! A big
difference.

Perhaps we should continue this on one of the other lists . . .

P,

{you wrote...}
>Perhaps we should continue this on one of the other lists . . .

Boffo.

Cheers,
Jon

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005, Jon Szanto wrote:
>
> P,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >Perhaps we should continue this on one of the other lists . . .
>
> Boffo.

???

Jon, was that agreement, disagreement or just some
'interpersonal dynamics' ...?

Me personally, I've had enough of numbers for a while;
except as they change or explain the music I make and
enjoy.

Regards,
Yahya

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On Thu, 24 Nov 2005, Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com,
> "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:
>
> > It's interesting that a sixth-comma meantone would
> > lead to a comma difference between the two. If I've
> > got my facts straight, a cycle of 12 perfect fifths
> > leads to a similar difference:
> >
> > (Name?:)
> > 3^12 / 2^19 = 531441 / 524288 = 1.0136432
> > cents(3^12 / 2^19) = 1200 * log2(1.0136432)
> > = 23.4598998
>
> This is actually the Pythagorean comma, or diatonic comma.
>
> > Pythagorean Comma:
> > 81 / 80 = 1.0125
> > cents(81 / 80) = 1200 *log2(1.0125)
> > = 21.5062896
>
> This is the comma of Didymus, or syntonic comma.
>
> > These two ratios differ by just under 2 cents.
>
> Which is the shisma; its also very close to the amount by which the
> fifth of 12-equal is flat.

Thanks for the correction and filling the gaps, Gene.
I'm embarrassed to say: I KNEW that! :-) but
clearly it's been a while since I had to name these
intervals.

BTW, which is now the commonest form in English:
skhisma (best matches the Greek), schisma (perhaps
best matches a Latin borrowing), or shisma?

Regards,
Yahya

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Yahya,

{you wrote...}
>On Fri, 25 Nov 2005, Jon Szanto wrote:
> > Boffo.
>
>???
>
>Jon, was that agreement, disagreement or just some 'interpersonal >dynamics' ...?

Sorry, my fault. Even though I don't mean to be insensitive, I sometimes forget that this is a very international readership, and little phrases like the above might not translate. "Boffo" is a term that signifies "yeah, great idea!" or something similar. It was meant as a light-hearted expression to Paul, that, yes indeed the topic had veered far from the focus of this forum, certainly strayed from the subject line.

Not a big deal, however.

Cheers,
Jon