ThumbSolfa

(cross-posted from Tuning)

http://www.thummer.com/

Paul Vandervoort sent me this link. It's an
transpositionally-invariant keyboard proposal
with corresponding notation.

In this PowerPoint presentation...

http://www.thummer.com/PPT/Isomorphism.ppt

...he mentions 19-tET and 5-limit JI.

He also mentions that he worked in marketing
for Microsoft for 8 years.

He promises ThumbSolfa will at least achieve the
popularity of guitar tab. The reason similar
proposals have failed, he says, is because they
failed to understand network effecst and lock-in.
In which case I'm sure he's the man for the job! ;)

. Interestingly, though
. he doesn't seem
. to have a clue how to
. use PowerPoint.

;)

The effort is apparently to be software-driven,
with computer keyboards as the input device. It's
all meant to be open source. Well howabout that!

-Carl

there has been allot of attempts to patent different 19 tone keyboards over the last few years, by yamaha and others behind the scenes
i am sure they are egged on by the british proponents of this system too. But Yasser and 19 did not attract that many followers, even Mandlebaum moved away from it quite quickly as well as Erv.

But if we were going to push for one such thing 22 would be much better. giving us Paul's 22 Etto start with, then you could retune each step, the 22 shutis of india, erv's 22 tone 7 limit, the 1-3-7-9-11-15 eikosany +2 blanks, a feast of 17 tone subsets, and i am sure Gene would also have tons of stuff to fill into this.. 22 easily accomadates a slew of 9 and 13 tone subsets.

I say if Paul and I agree on something (the 22 family as being special) , then the world oughtto stand up and take notice.:)
lets see if he agrees!

Carl Lumma wrote:

>(cross-posted from Tuning)
>
>http://www.thummer.com/
>
>Paul Vandervoort sent me this link. It's an
>transpositionally-invariant keyboard proposal
>with corresponding notation.
>
>In this PowerPoint presentation...
>
>http://www.thummer.com/PPT/Isomorphism.ppt
>
>...he mentions 19-tET and 5-limit JI.
>
>He also mentions that he worked in marketing
>for Microsoft for 8 years.
>
>He promises ThumbSolfa will at least achieve the
>popularity of guitar tab. The reason similar
>proposals have failed, he says, is because they
>failed to understand network effecst and lock-in.
>In which case I'm sure he's the man for the job! ;)
>
>. Interestingly, though
>. he doesn't seem
>. to have a clue how to
>. use PowerPoint.
>
>;)
>
>The effort is apparently to be software-driven,
>with computer keyboards as the input device. It's
>all meant to be open source. Well howabout that!
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

> there has been allot of attempts to patent different 19 tone
keyboards

I read in this nice entry,

Rubenson, R. "Temperatur." Nordisk familjebok. Uggleupplagan, 1919
http://runeberg.org/nfch/0437.html

"The 19-tone system has most frequently been discovered; Praetorius
(1614) has already been mentioned and at more recent times by Swedish
P. S. Munck af Rosenschoeld (1847) as well as German F. W. Opelt
(1852). Munck af Rosenschoeld (b.1804, d.1860, adjunct to the
university at Lund) wrote about his 'tempered enharmonic tone system'
in Vet. akad:s preceedings and afterwards had a harmonium prepared
(now in the Musikhistoriska museum [ie http://tinyurl.com/9n5cx ]).
Helmholtz .. remarked against all 19-tone theories that they only
addressed the pythagorean comma, but not the syntonic in that they
don't distinguish between third and fifth tones (e is not the same
pitch as fifth to a and third to c...)."

Here's a neat article by Denzil Wraight about the famous Zarlino
design, 'Zarlino's 24-note Harpsichord built by Domenico da Pesaro,
1548.' http://www.denzilwraight.com/24note.htm
You can see a 19-tone Zarlino embodiment at http://www.jackpeters.com/

> But if we were going to push for one such thing 22 would be much
better.

I almost missed seeing a 22-tone harpsichord Willard Martin exhibited
at the Early Music Festival (soon before closing I met Jack Peters who
said to go check out the split keys clavichords he kept in one of the
smaller rooms). He brought two 22 tone keyboards - one that was more
authentic and the other played easier, as well as many diagrams and he
demonstrated a little music (including Beatles).

Clark

Kraig,

{you wrote...}
>I say if Paul and I agree on something (the 22 family as being special), >then the world oughtto stand up and take notice.:)

I'm standing while I type this. It isn't comfortable, but I'm willing to go the extra mile... :)

Cheers,
Jon

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
> there has been allot of attempts to patent different 19 tone
keyboards
> over the last few years, by yamaha and others behind the scenes
> i am sure they are egged on by the british proponents of this
system
> too. But Yasser and 19 did not attract that many followers, even
> Mandlebaum moved away from it quite quickly as well as Erv.
>
> But if we were going to push for one such thing 22 would be much
> better. giving us Paul's 22 Etto start with, then you could retune
each
> step, the 22 shutis of india, erv's 22 tone 7 limit, the 1-3-7-9-11-
15
> eikosany +2 blanks, a feast of 17 tone subsets, and i am sure Gene
would
> also have tons of stuff to fill into this.. 22 easily accomadates a
slew
> of 9 and 13 tone subsets.

I don't know why you'd say that (last sentence). Yes, one pair of 9
and 13 tone subsets come from "Orwell" or "Orson" (using a subminor
third generator and octave period), which 22 is a decent but pretty
rough representation of to begin with. But a pair is certainly not
a "slew". The 10 and 12 tone subsets in my old paper are very special
IMO, but the new paper also suggests for example "Doublewide" 10 and
14 tone subsets, "Hedgehog" 8 and 14 tone subsets, "Magic" 10 and 13
tone subsets, "Porcupine" 7, 8 and 15 tone subsets, and of course
the "Superpyth" 7 and 12 tone subsets. Any of these subsets can be
detempered partially to the tunings in the new paper, or all the way
to JI. And all this is without even going to the 11-limit, where 22
happens to excel.

> I say if Paul and I agree on something (the 22 family as being
special)
> , then the world oughtto stand up and take notice.:)
> lets see if he agrees!

Sure! Unlike 19, 22 forces you away from diatonic, common-practice
thinking, so as an agent of change it has a lot of potential. There
are a lot of novel, non-diatonic approaches to 19 too, though, and my
new paper implies some of these. My old paper does claim 22 as
something special, but only because it contains the particular 10
note subsets that form the main topic of that paper.

Paul Erlich wrote:

>
>>. 22 easily accomadates a >> >>
>slew > >
>>of 9 and 13 tone subsets.
>> >>
>
>I don't know why you'd say that (last sentence). Yes, one pair of 9 >and 13 tone subsets come from "Orwell" or "Orson" (using a subminor >third generator and octave period), which 22 is a decent but pretty >rough representation of to begin with. But a pair is certainly not >a "slew". >
I was referring to the non ETS ones also as i would use these allot out of the eikosany for instance which would often work well outside of the structure from which it came

>The 10 and 12 tone subsets in my old paper are very special >IMO, but the new paper also suggests for example "Doublewide" 10 and >14 tone subsets, "Hedgehog" 8 and 14 tone subsets, "Magic" 10 and 13 >tone subsets, "Porcupine" 7, 8 and 15 tone subsets, and of course >the "Superpyth" 7 and 12 tone subsets. Any of these subsets can be >detempered partially to the tunings in the new paper, or all the way >to JI. And all this is without even going to the 11-limit, where 22 >happens to excel.
> >
good to point these out to

> > >
>>I say if Paul and I agree on something (the 22 family as being >> >>
>special) > >
>>, then the world oughtto stand up and take notice.:)
>> lets see if he agrees!
>> >>
>
>Sure! Unlike 19, 22 forces you away from diatonic, common-practice >thinking, so as an agent of change it has a lot of potential. There >are a lot of novel, non-diatonic approaches to 19 too, though, and my >new paper implies some of these. My old paper does claim 22 as >something special, but only because it contains the particular 10 >note subsets that form the main topic of that paper.
> >
I think that sounds like as much as we do agree! i too recognize what 19 can do

>-- > >
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> Paul Erlich wrote:
>
> >
> >>. 22 easily accomadates a
> >>
> >>
> >slew
> >
> >
> >>of 9 and 13 tone subsets.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I don't know why you'd say that (last sentence). Yes, one pair of
9
> >and 13 tone subsets come from "Orwell" or "Orson" (using a
subminor
> >third generator and octave period), which 22 is a decent but
pretty
> >rough representation of to begin with. But a pair is certainly not
> >a "slew".
> >
> I was referring to the non ETS ones

I didn't have ET specifically in mind myself . . .

> also as i would use these allot out
> of the eikosany for instance which would often work well outside of
the
> structure from which it came

Might the same not be true of other subsets as well?

Anyway, I do enjoy our general agreement here!

Paul Erlich wrote:

>
>
>Might the same not be true of other subsets as well?
>
>Anyway, I do enjoy our general agreement here!
> >
i agree, sometimes the melodic integrity is stong enough to carry the music forward especially if one is not using harmony.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

I submitted info on their feedback form, asking for a price quote on
the prototype and have yet to receive a response.

Has any one else heard from them?

Paolo

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> (cross-posted from Tuning)
>
> http://www.thummer.com/
>
> Paul Vandervoort sent me this link. It's an
> transpositionally-invariant keyboard proposal
> with corresponding notation.
>
> In this PowerPoint presentation...
>
> http://www.thummer.com/PPT/Isomorphism.ppt
>
> ...he mentions 19-tET and 5-limit JI.
>
> He also mentions that he worked in marketing
> for Microsoft for 8 years.
>
> He promises ThumbSolfa will at least achieve the
> popularity of guitar tab. The reason similar
> proposals have failed, he says, is because they
> failed to understand network effecst and lock-in.
> In which case I'm sure he's the man for the job! ;)
>
> . Interestingly, though
> . he doesn't seem
> . to have a clue how to
> . use PowerPoint.
>
> ;)
>
> The effort is apparently to be software-driven,
> with computer keyboards as the input device. It's
> all meant to be open source. Well howabout that!
>
> -Carl
>

On 11/1/05, paolovalladolid <phv40@...> wrote:
> I submitted info on their feedback form, asking for a price quote on
> the prototype and have yet to receive a response.

I did too, haven't heard back from them yet. I may build one myself,
though, if I ever find the time and resources. It sounds like a great
idea.

--
~Tristan Parker
http://www.myspace.com/rozencrantz
"Western music is fast because it's out of tune"
-- Terry Riley