Re: [MMM] Re: Microtuning the orchestra

Carl & Aaron --

Oops, the "reply off list" that *was* in the subject line isn't current.
Sorry, I just let the subject line come in when I replied. Sorry. I've
reset it here.

Anyway... Yes, I'm encouraged by the results so far with GPO.

And I'm very thankful to Robert Walker & Manuel Op de Coul for their work
on the relay programs that make it possible.

Also, if I understand some of what I see in FTS, it has some facilities
for doing JI, but I don't know if it can do JI relaying as well. The Help
file doesn't seem to cover it...

Rick

Rick,

{you wrote...}
>Anyway... Yes, I'm encouraged by the results so far with GPO.

Due to utter chaos in our house, I am not going to be able to be working on music for the next few weeks, but I am really glad you are delving into this and solving problems - problems that many people might have. It would be great when you end up in a 'good place' (even though I know this is temporary, and improves or degrades when products and technology changes), I'd love to see a final blow-by-blow of how you achieved musical results with samples and relaying.

>And I'm very thankful to Robert Walker & Manuel Op de Coul for their work >on the relay programs that make it possible.

Unsung heroes they are. Or, if not completely unsung, then certainly not on the play list often enough!

Cheers,
Jon

Rick,

{you wrote...}
>Here is an orchestra of 5 winds, 4 brass, and strings in GPO. I also added >a piano using one channel of Wusik in 15-tet.

Wow, you are really making progress! This is one of the best non-12 semi-orchestral things I've heard. I've got more open time in January, and I might be interested in helping the beta work with FTS (Robert, you out there?); I am assuming it could work with any standalone sampler as it does with GPO.

>Balance and panning leave something to be desired...

How about burning one with just a little less verb?

>... but you get the basic idea.

Yep, so much better than a midi file!

>Next time I'll probably throw in some timpani.

Oh, don't go ruining it for me... :)

Cheers,
Jon

Hey Jon --

Thanks for listening!

> >Balance and panning leave something to be desired...
> How about burning one with just a little less verb?

Right... The output is through "GPO Studio" which is a standalone app that
has an "Ambience" reverb module built in. It tends to come adjusted for a
*really* we signal, and I haven't messed with it yet, just as I haven't
messed with the instrumental panning. I'm just a sloppy conductor I
guess... ;-) I will be making both of those adjustments as I go along.

Cheers,
Rick

Jon asked,

> How about burning one with just a little less verb?

OK... I had some time, so I just uploaded again, with less reverb and with
some of the panning adjusted for better layout.
http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/temp/GPO-FTS-15tet-Test4.mp3

Rick

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...> wrote:

> Wow, you are really making progress! This is one of the best non-12
> semi-orchestral things I've heard.

The sound is terrific, but is it really 15-et? It doesn't sound like
it to me.

i quite enjoy this. it is in a very strange world

Rick McGowan wrote:

>Jon asked,
>
> >
>>How about burning one with just a little less verb?
>> >>
>
>OK... I had some time, so I just uploaded again, with less reverb and with >some of the panning adjusted for better layout.
>http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/temp/GPO-FTS-15tet-Test4.mp3
>
> Rick
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

At 10:25 PM 1/1/2006, you wrote:
>Jon asked,
>
>> How about burning one with just a little less verb?
>
>OK... I had some time, so I just uploaded again, with less reverb and with
>some of the panning adjusted for better layout.
>http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/temp/GPO-FTS-15tet-Test4.mp3
>
> Rick

Sounds like there's an unsteadiness of pitch here -- a mouse
on the bend wheel?

-Carl

Howdy Yahya,

Thanks for your kind comments.

> You wrote, earlier, that you used: "GPO relayed
> through the latest FTS beta." Was this hard or
> expensive to set up? And do you have to be a beta
> tester for FTS?

I think if you write to Robert Walker he could tell you. He has a 30-day
free trial, which would help you determine if FTS meets your needs. FTS is
not very expensive anyway. GPO itself, however, is pretty expensive. You
also need a MIDI loop driver like "Midi Yoke" to do any of this, because
you have to connect the output of some MIDI player to FTS, and then connect
FTS to GPO.

FTS: http://www.robertinventor.com
GPO: http://www.garritan.com
MIDI Yoke: http://www.midiox.com

It is a bit of a hassle to set up FTS with all of the right options and
windows to do this, but once you've done it, the software remembers your
settings, and then all you have to do is point it at different tuning
files. At some point, when Robert releases the next FTS version, I had
planned to write up some pointers about how to set up FTS properly for this
kind of re-tuning.

Rick

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@u...> wrote:
>
> Jon asked,
>
> > How about burning one with just a little less verb?
>
> OK... I had some time, so I just uploaded again, with less reverb and
with
> some of the panning adjusted for better layout.
> http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/temp/GPO-FTS-15tet-Test4.mp3
>
> Rick

I'm pretty sure some of the intervals here don't exist in 15-equal --
particularly a really small "wide unison" almost halfway through. Do
you have a way of independently measuring the pitches this system is
producing?

Paul asked:

> I'm pretty sure some of the intervals here don't exist in 15-equal
> particularly a really small "wide unison" almost halfway through. Do
> you have a way of independently measuring the pitches this system is
> producing?

You are correct that some notes aren't quite right. The clarinet, in
particular, is actually way *out of tune* with the rest of the ensemble,
and I've since replaced it with a patch that is in-tune, so next go-round
will sound better in that regard. (Note, however, that this could also be
related to the following bug; it's not quite clear yet.) I'm also not
really sure the piano is as in-tune as it could be with the other
instruments.

The 2nd violins are probably the cause of the audible so-called "wide
unisons". The violins are victims of a gnarly bug in FTS which is rendering
incorrect notes in some conditions. This is a note on/off tracking problem
somewhere, and the pitch-bend gets set incorrectly. Those will be fixed as
soon as Robert can find the bug! Some of these bugs only occur when using
more than one MIDI device, so it's also sometimes a matter of being able to
isolate problems in a way that can be probed with debugging tools.

Rick

Paul,

{you wrote...}
>I'm pretty sure some of the intervals here don't exist in 15-equal -- >particularly a really small "wide unison" almost halfway through. Do you >have a way of independently measuring the pitches this system is producing?

Before going to the grunt work of measuring, I'm willing to bet that some of this may come from either a difference in the response of pitch bends from different samples, or from some mistuning of the samples as they exist in the 12tet version (I've heard things that were rendered with the better sample libraries - Garritan, Vienna, etc - that weren't completely in tune [for 12tet, that is]).

On the other hand, having a piece in a particular tuning that ends up with some anomalies makes it all the more realistic! :)

But I think that the FTS schemes for pitch relaying _should_ be checked with a variety of tunings. Me? I'll try and do some work with Robert in January, but it won't be exhaustive, nor will I be interested in inordinately arcane or theoretical tunings. Just a few good test cases, as one would do in first passes of software testing...

Cheers,
Jon

Jon wrote,

> I'm willing to bet that some of this may come from either a
> difference in the response of pitch bends from different samples,
> or from some mistuning of the samples as they exist in the 12tet
> version

I agree. I played the "solo clarinet" in 12-tet against the oboe and
flute. They sound in-tune enough. But when you switch them all into 15-tet
by applying pitch-bends, suddenly the clarinet becomes really sour and
out-of tune with the other two instruments. The "clarinet player 1" patch,
however, doesn't go out of tune that way.

> On the other hand, having a piece in a particular tuning that ends
> up with some anomalies makes it all the more realistic! :)

Yeah... like the bowed string sections sliding around all over the place
trying to "hear" their 15-tetty way through the score...! Heh heh! ;-)
Isn't that realistic!?

> But I think that the FTS schemes for pitch relaying _should_ be
> checked with a variety of tunings.

I've checked some FTS re-tuned patches a bit ad-hoc against what Rhino
gives for the same .tun files, and for the most part, it's in the ballpark.

Rick

In our last episode, there were some problems with sliding pitches, and
not getting quite to the desired pitches in my demo piece (15 tet).

It turns out there is a parameter in Finale that governs how GPO handle
the onset of pitch-bends, and for some strange reason, changing this
parameter -- even though the MIDI data is going to a relay! -- sort of
fixes the major problems that were apparent in the previous demo. (For
those who may have Finale, the parameter is "Delay if possible" next to the
pitch-bend gliss parameter, in the Human Playback options dialog. Set it
to "off", or uncheck the box.)

Here is an update of the music:

http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/temp/GPO-FTS-15tet-Test4.mp3

Those who heard the thing before will notice that it sounds more crisp and
certain. No more sloppy strings who can't quite find their pitches...

People on this list who might be interested in beta testing FTS for
relaying can contact Robert Walker; he mentioned this to me. At this point
the features seem to be stable enough that it could use some others to test
them out & try some music.

Cheers,

Rick

Hi Rick,

I'm not sure if you've solved all the problems with sliding pitches
(this time it wasn't the strings) and the like, but already this clip
sounds awesome! The prospect of a skilled orchestra playing in 15-
equal, or its electronic equivalent, is suddenly a lot closer than I
had imagined. The implications for the future of music are very
exciting. Keep up the good work and I'll keep listening!!

-P

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@u...> wrote:
>
> In our last episode, there were some problems with sliding pitches,
and
> not getting quite to the desired pitches in my demo piece (15 tet).
>
> It turns out there is a parameter in Finale that governs how GPO
handle
> the onset of pitch-bends, and for some strange reason, changing
this
> parameter -- even though the MIDI data is going to a relay! -- sort
of
> fixes the major problems that were apparent in the previous demo.
(For
> those who may have Finale, the parameter is "Delay if possible"
next to the
> pitch-bend gliss parameter, in the Human Playback options dialog.
Set it
> to "off", or uncheck the box.)
>
> Here is an update of the music:
>
> http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/temp/GPO-FTS-15tet-Test4.mp3
>
> Those who heard the thing before will notice that it sounds more
crisp and
> certain. No more sloppy strings who can't quite find their
pitches...
>
> People on this list who might be interested in beta testing FTS
for
> relaying can contact Robert Walker; he mentioned this to me. At
this point
> the features seem to be stable enough that it could use some others
to test
> them out & try some music.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rick
>

At 03:27 PM 1/10/2006, you wrote:
>Hi Rick,
>
>I'm not sure if you've solved all the problems with sliding pitches
>(this time it wasn't the strings) and the like, but already this clip
>sounds awesome! The prospect of a skilled orchestra playing in 15-
>equal, or its electronic equivalent, is suddenly a lot closer than I
>had imagined. The implications for the future of music are very
>exciting. Keep up the good work and I'll keep listening!!
>
>-P

Ditto.

-C.

Rick,

{Paul wrote...}
>... but already this clip sounds awesome! The implications for the future of music are very exciting. Keep up the good work and I'll keep listening!!

I second this reaction. Completely.

Cheers,
Jon

Paul Erlich wrote,

> I'm not sure if you've solved all the problems with sliding pitches
> (this time it wasn't the strings) and the like, but already this clip
> sounds awesome!

Thanks for listening. I still have more experiments to do, to convince
myself that it's always doing the right thing, and the pitches are solid.
And I have some more questions for the developers, but it's looking more
promising all the time.

> The prospect of a skilled orchestra playing in 15-equal, or
> its electronic equivalent, is suddenly a lot closer than I
> had imagined.

Right, same for me. It's rather exciting.

Cheers,
Rick

Well... It's been a while since we've had an installment of this thread,
so I thought I'd take the opportunity, since Jon Szanto has been discussing
samples.

Robert Walker has been busily

I finally have a preliminary document about Garritan Personal Orchestra
and Fractal Tune Smithy. You can find it here:

http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/FTS-HowTo/MicroOrchestra.html

(Comments and suggestions are welcome, but I hope people would make them
off-list so we don't have a lot of "fix this please" and "what about X"
chatter here.)

If people here on MMM are interested in doing beta-testing work with FTS
(whether for GPO or for other synth systems), you could contact Robert
Walker off-list. There is a 14-day demo version of FTS that you could try,
but you'll need to get the latest FTS from him, along with a demo key.

There are two musical samples available also, here. The first is the
completion of a short movement that was posted in similar form here before.
This version has a much cleaner sound. The second example is a companion
to the other. (And someday there may be more.) I haven't integrated these
into the document. In future I also hope to add a few other short tutorial
examples.

http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/FTS-HowTo/FTS-15tet-1.mp3
http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/FTS-HowTo/FTS-15tet-2.mp3

Cheers,
Rick

Sorry, hit the "send" button too soon. I meant to complete that thought...

Robert Walker has been busily working through a lot of issues and adding
new options to FTS.

Rick

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Rick McGowan <rick@...> wrote:
>
> Well... It's been a while since we've had an installment of this
thread,
> so I thought I'd take the opportunity, since Jon Szanto has been
discussing
> samples.
>
> Robert Walker has been busily
>
> I finally have a preliminary document about Garritan Personal
Orchestra
> and Fractal Tune Smithy. You can find it here:
>
> http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/FTS-HowTo/MicroOrchestra.html
>
> (Comments and suggestions are welcome, but I hope people would make
them
> off-list so we don't have a lot of "fix this please" and "what
about X"
> chatter here.)
>
> If people here on MMM are interested in doing beta-testing work
with FTS
> (whether for GPO or for other synth systems), you could contact
Robert
> Walker off-list. There is a 14-day demo version of FTS that you
could try,
> but you'll need to get the latest FTS from him, along with a demo
key.
>
> There are two musical samples available also, here. The first is
the
> completion of a short movement that was posted in similar form here
before.
> This version has a much cleaner sound.

I don't know -- I hear a lot more of what sound like unintentional
pitch glides in FTS-15tet-1.mp3 than in the last version of the
movement I remember. It seems to me that the previous version was
much more successful.

> The second example is a companion
> to the other. (And someday there may be more.) I haven't integrated
these
> into the document. In future I also hope to add a few other short
tutorial
> examples.
>
> http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/FTS-HowTo/FTS-15tet-1.mp3
> http://rm-and-jo.laughingsquid.org/FTS-HowTo/FTS-15tet-2.mp3
>
> Cheers,
> Rick

Both of these pieces have a weird moment when it sounds like a human
voice but with a very unnatural vibrato, almost like a broken record
or tape.