Wandering thoughts

Ok, so I thought I'd be more poetic with my titles... :)

This is my first foray into the Eikosany, with generous help from
Kraig. I started with sine waves, but I kept toying with it, until
now it's something completely different! The static sounds were
derived from trumpets, and the percussive sounds came from a gamelan
instrument. The chordal progression is one of the ones documented by
Kraig. One of the cool things I found with the tetrad cycles is that
they have interesting patterns alternating between otonal and utonal
harmonies, which you can listen for.

Let me know what you think! I'm considering these as "study" works,
that I may be able to incorporate into something more substantial later.

http://tinyurl.com/doe8r

-Chris

quite nice combination of textures that fits the nature of the structure. i like the contrast with the understatement by the short sounds with the more bolder glides. good inversions of these chords as well as an unpredictability of just which way one is going to go.
The effect is quite different than i am used too which is saying allot

Chris Bryan wrote:

>Ok, so I thought I'd be more poetic with my titles... :)
>
>This is my first foray into the Eikosany, with generous help from
>Kraig. I started with sine waves, but I kept toying with it, until
>now it's something completely different! The static sounds were
>derived from trumpets, and the percussive sounds came from a gamelan
>instrument. The chordal progression is one of the ones documented by
>Kraig. One of the cool things I found with the tetrad cycles is that
>they have interesting patterns alternating between otonal and utonal
>harmonies, which you can listen for.
>
>Let me know what you think! I'm considering these as "study" works,
>that I may be able to incorporate into something more substantial later.
>
>http://tinyurl.com/doe8r
>
>-Chris
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Thanks! All the inversions are in prime order (1-3-5-7-9-11) from bottom to
top, although there are only 4 present in any chord, of course. It would be
interesting to make some crazy changes, like bringing the 11 down or
something!

On 9/20/05, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> quite nice combination of textures that fits the nature of the
> structure. i like the contrast with the understatement by the short
> sounds with the more bolder glides. good inversions of these chords as
> well as an unpredictability of just which way one is going to go.
>
> The effect is quite different than i am used too which is saying allot
>
> Chris Bryan wrote:
>
> >Ok, so I thought I'd be more poetic with my titles... :)
> >
> >This is my first foray into the Eikosany, with generous help from
> >Kraig. I started with sine waves, but I kept toying with it, until
> >now it's something completely different! The static sounds were
> >derived from trumpets, and the percussive sounds came from a gamelan
> >instrument. The chordal progression is one of the ones documented by
> >Kraig. One of the cool things I found with the tetrad cycles is that
> >they have interesting patterns alternating between otonal and utonal
> >harmonies, which you can listen for.
> >
> >Let me know what you think! I'm considering these as "study" works,
> >that I may be able to incorporate into something more substantial later.
> >
> >http://tinyurl.com/doe8r
> >
> >-Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What is the intended effect on the listener? The long glides are hard for me to get used to, especially since they end in relatively sharp higher-limit chords. I guess I'm just not 100% used to higher limits than 7 when used in harmony (as opposed to when used in melody). I like
the organ and harp going on in the background.

-Magnus

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005, Kraig Grady wrote:

> quite nice combination of textures that fits the nature of the
> structure. i like the contrast with the understatement by the short
> sounds with the more bolder glides. good inversions of these chords as
> well as an unpredictability of just which way one is going to go.
>
> The effect is quite different than i am used too which is saying allot
>
> Chris Bryan wrote:
>
>> Ok, so I thought I'd be more poetic with my titles... :)
>>
>> This is my first foray into the Eikosany, with generous help from
>> Kraig. I started with sine waves, but I kept toying with it, until
>> now it's something completely different! The static sounds were
>> derived from trumpets, and the percussive sounds came from a gamelan
>> instrument. The chordal progression is one of the ones documented by
>> Kraig. One of the cool things I found with the tetrad cycles is that
>> they have interesting patterns alternating between otonal and utonal
>> harmonies, which you can listen for.
>>
>> Let me know what you think! I'm considering these as "study" works,
>> that I may be able to incorporate into something more substantial later.
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/doe8r
>>
>> -Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

On 9/20/05, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...> wrote:
>
> What is the intended effect on the listener? The long glides are
> hard for me to get used to, especially since they end in relatively
> sharp higher-limit chords. I guess I'm just not 100% used to higher limits
>
> than 7 when used in harmony (as opposed to when used in melody). I like
> the organ and harp going on in the background.

Actually, these chords only go to 11 (Spinal Tap, anyone? ;D ), and not all
the chords have that member. The only time I get weirded out is when the
glisses take really long... like the movement to the final chord, which is a
smooth 1-3-5-7. It starts out so dissonant, and you can't even really tell
when it becomes consonant.

I'm not sure if I could verbalize an "intended effect"... but a lot of JI
chordal textures have Steve Reich-ish abrupt changes, which I like too, but
I just thought I'd try something different.

Maybe I like it because the transition period is suspenseful, and it makes
me wonder where it will end. Sometimes a long gliss will move past something
more consonant on it's way to something more dissonant... but it's never too
dissonant (to me), so it's a pleasant surprise.

If you happen to listen to this or other 11-limit stuff more, I'd be
interested to know how your ear adjusts. I struggle with 11 too, but I like
it now, especially at the top of the chord.

-Chris

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

11's definitely pushes us away from the 12 tone matrix, which makes them hard to take at first.
I have gotten used to them yet i find a rather urgent foreboding in them sometimes.
The eikosany , since it has no real tonal center, or if one is formed it is easily undermined by just moving anywhere a step or two, that it tends to have a certain " ungroundedness" to it.
It reminds me more of Bitches Brew in a weird way, which was done at the time this structure came about.
a constant becoming and unbecoming.
i imagine Tibetan might like it as preparatory for dealing with the bardo.
one is standing nowhere but surrounded by or standing inside a great jewel.
A myriad of facets
Chris & Melissa Bryan wrote:

>On 9/20/05, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...> wrote:
> >
>> What is the intended effect on the listener? The long glides are >>hard for me to get used to, especially since they end in relatively >>sharp higher-limit chords. I guess I'm just not 100% used to higher limits >>
>>than 7 when used in harmony (as opposed to when used in melody). I like
>>the organ and harp going on in the background.
>> >>
>
>
>Actually, these chords only go to 11 (Spinal Tap, anyone? ;D ), and not all >the chords have that member. The only time I get weirded out is when the >glisses take really long... like the movement to the final chord, which is a >smooth 1-3-5-7. It starts out so dissonant, and you can't even really tell >when it becomes consonant.
>
>I'm not sure if I could verbalize an "intended effect"... but a lot of JI >chordal textures have Steve Reich-ish abrupt changes, which I like too, but >I just thought I'd try something different.
>
>Maybe I like it because the transition period is suspenseful, and it makes >me wonder where it will end. Sometimes a long gliss will move past something >more consonant on it's way to something more dissonant... but it's never too >dissonant (to me), so it's a pleasant surprise.
>
>If you happen to listen to this or other 11-limit stuff more, I'd be >interested to know how your ear adjusts. I struggle with 11 too, but I like >it now, especially at the top of the chord.
>
>-Chris
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

I'll have to this piece later . . . A lot of the material in _Bitches
Brew_ was derived from the Augmented (3-1-3-1-3-1) scale; one of the
few instructions given by Miles to the players had to do with
combining the E major, Ab major, and C major triads. Clearly this
scale has no inherent tonal center either. The same structure can be
derived from 5-limit JI if the 128:125 'diesis' is understood or
tempered to vanish and octave equivalence is assumed. For those who
don't have my 'Middle Path' paper, a way of tuning this scale which
does 'minimal damage' in the 5-prime-limit is

0
305.87
399.02
704.89
798.04
1103.91
(1197.06)

Which one can understand as having an interval of equivalence of
1197.06 cents, a period one third of that (399.02 cents), and a
generator of 305.87 cents, if one wishes. Unfortunately, this is
going to sound awfully close to the 12-equal version, so it's not
very "microtonal" I guess . . .

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> 11's definitely pushes us away from the 12 tone matrix, which makes
them
> hard to take at first.
> I have gotten used to them yet i find a rather urgent foreboding
in
> them sometimes.
>
> The eikosany , since it has no real tonal center, or if one is
formed it
> is easily undermined by just moving anywhere a step or two, that
it
> tends to have a certain " ungroundedness" to it.
> It reminds me more of Bitches Brew in a weird way, which was done
at the
> time this structure came about.
> a constant becoming and unbecoming.
> i imagine Tibetan might like it as preparatory for dealing with
the bardo.
> one is standing nowhere but surrounded by or standing inside a
great jewel.
> A myriad of facets
>
>
> Chris & Melissa Bryan wrote:
>
> >On 9/20/05, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@s...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> What is the intended effect on the listener? The long glides are
> >>hard for me to get used to, especially since they end in
relatively
> >>sharp higher-limit chords. I guess I'm just not 100% used to
higher limits
> >>
> >>than 7 when used in harmony (as opposed to when used in melody).
I like
> >>the organ and harp going on in the background.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >Actually, these chords only go to 11 (Spinal Tap, anyone? ;D ),
and not all
> >the chords have that member. The only time I get weirded out is
when the
> >glisses take really long... like the movement to the final chord,
which is a
> >smooth 1-3-5-7. It starts out so dissonant, and you can't even
really tell
> >when it becomes consonant.
> >
> >I'm not sure if I could verbalize an "intended effect"... but a
lot of JI
> >chordal textures have Steve Reich-ish abrupt changes, which I like
too, but
> >I just thought I'd try something different.
> >
> >Maybe I like it because the transition period is suspenseful, and
it makes
> >me wonder where it will end. Sometimes a long gliss will move past
something
> >more consonant on it's way to something more dissonant... but it's
never too
> >dissonant (to me), so it's a pleasant surprise.
> >
> >If you happen to listen to this or other 11-limit stuff more, I'd
be
> >interested to know how your ear adjusts. I struggle with 11 too,
but I like
> >it now, especially at the top of the chord.
> >
> >-Chris
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

I would always use this scale to play along with it.
Miles is my favorite Music Minus 1
Paul Erlich wrote:

>I'll have to this piece later . . . A lot of the material in _Bitches >Brew_ was derived from the Augmented (3-1-3-1-3-1) scale; one of the >few instructions given by Miles to the players had to do with >combining the E major, Ab major, and C major triads. Clearly this >scale has no inherent tonal center either. The same structure can be >derived from 5-limit JI if the 128:125 'diesis' is understood or >tempered to vanish and octave equivalence is assumed. For those who >don't have my 'Middle Path' paper, a way of tuning this scale which >does 'minimal damage' in the 5-prime-limit is
>
>0
>305.87
>399.02
>704.89
>798.04
>1103.91
>(1197.06)
>
>Which one can understand as having an interval of equivalence of >1197.06 cents, a period one third of that (399.02 cents), and a >generator of 305.87 cents, if one wishes. Unfortunately, this is >going to sound awfully close to the 12-equal version, so it's not >very "microtonal" I guess . . .
>
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
> >
>>11's definitely pushes us away from the 12 tone matrix, which makes >> >>
>them > >
>>hard to take at first.
>> I have gotten used to them yet i find a rather urgent foreboding >> >>
>in > >
>>them sometimes.
>> >>The eikosany , since it has no real tonal center, or if one is >> >>
>formed it > >
>>is easily undermined by just moving anywhere a step or two, that >> >>
>it > >
>>tends to have a certain " ungroundedness" to it.
>>It reminds me more of Bitches Brew in a weird way, which was done >> >>
>at the > >
>>time this structure came about.
>> a constant becoming and unbecoming.
>> i imagine Tibetan might like it as preparatory for dealing with >> >>
>the bardo.
> >
>> one is standing nowhere but surrounded by or standing inside a >> >>
>great jewel.
> >
>> A myriad of facets
>> >>
>>Chris & Melissa Bryan wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>On 9/20/05, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@s...> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>>>What is the intended effect on the listener? The long glides are >>>>hard for me to get used to, especially since they end in >>>> >>>>
>relatively > >
>>>>sharp higher-limit chords. I guess I'm just not 100% used to >>>> >>>>
>higher limits > >
>>>>than 7 when used in harmony (as opposed to when used in melody). >>>> >>>>
>I like
> >
>>>>the organ and harp going on in the background.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>Actually, these chords only go to 11 (Spinal Tap, anyone? ;D ), >>> >>>
>and not all > >
>>>the chords have that member. The only time I get weirded out is >>> >>>
>when the > >
>>>glisses take really long... like the movement to the final chord, >>> >>>
>which is a > >
>>>smooth 1-3-5-7. It starts out so dissonant, and you can't even >>> >>>
>really tell > >
>>>when it becomes consonant.
>>>
>>>I'm not sure if I could verbalize an "intended effect"... but a >>> >>>
>lot of JI > >
>>>chordal textures have Steve Reich-ish abrupt changes, which I like >>> >>>
>too, but > >
>>>I just thought I'd try something different.
>>>
>>>Maybe I like it because the transition period is suspenseful, and >>> >>>
>it makes > >
>>>me wonder where it will end. Sometimes a long gliss will move past >>> >>>
>something > >
>>>more consonant on it's way to something more dissonant... but it's >>> >>>
>never too > >
>>>dissonant (to me), so it's a pleasant surprise.
>>>
>>>If you happen to listen to this or other 11-limit stuff more, I'd >>> >>>
>be > >
>>>interested to know how your ear adjusts. I struggle with 11 too, >>> >>>
>but I like > >
>>>it now, especially at the top of the chord.
>>>
>>>-Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>-- >>Kraig Grady
>>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>>The Wandering Medicine Show
>>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Kraig Grady wrote:

>I would always use this scale to play along with it.
> Miles is my favorite Music Minus 1
>
> >
Always fun, always sounds out.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

Chris,
This is wonderful. Could you document the specific chordal progression in the piece? I'd love to include this in a future podcast, if you give your permission.

The bass at 4:30 is like the elephant in the room suddenly moves. Nice.

Prent Rodgers

> > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:03:20 -0000
> From: "Chris Bryan" <melandchris@...>
> Subject: Wandering thoughts
> > Ok, so I thought I'd be more poetic with my titles... :)
> > This is my first foray into the Eikosany, with generous help from
> Kraig. I started with sine waves, but I kept toying with it, until
> now it's something completely different! The static sounds were
> derived from trumpets, and the percussive sounds came from a gamelan
> instrument. The chordal progression is one of the ones documented by
> Kraig. One of the cool things I found with the tetrad cycles is that
> they have interesting patterns alternating between otonal and utonal
> harmonies, which you can listen for.
> > Let me know what you think! I'm considering these as "study" works,
> that I may be able to incorporate into something more substantial later.
> > http://tinyurl.com/doe8r
> > -Chris
>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Prent Rodgers
<prentrodgers@c...> wrote:
> Chris,
> This is wonderful. Could you document the specific chordal progression
> in the piece? I'd love to include this in a future podcast, if you give
> your permission.

Thanks! It's nice to get an e-mail to tickle your ego every once in a
while ;) And of course you're welcome to podcast it. The chords are
a cycle of 30 tetrads that was documented by Kraig Grady, so I can't
take credit for that. Inspection reveals that each tetrad shares 2
pitches in common with its neighbors, and that the progression
alternates between otonal and utonal harmonies. The pitch factors, in
no particular inversion, are as follows:

3-9-11 3-7-11 3-7-9 7-9-11
7-9-11 1-7-11 3-7-11 5-7-11
1-9-11 1-7-11 1-7-9 7-9-11
1-7-9 1-7-11 1-3-7 1-5-7
1-5-7 5-7-11 1-7-11 1-5-11
5-7-9 5-7-11 3-5-7 1-5-7
3-5-11 3-7-11 5-7-11 3-5-7
3-5-11 1-5-11 5-9-11 5-7-11
1-3-11 1-5-11 1-3-5 3-5-11
1-3-11 1-5-11 1-7-11 1-9-11
1-9-11 5-9-11 1-5-11 1-5-9
3-9-11 5-9-11 7-9-11 1-9-11
7-9-11 5-9-11 5-7-11 5-7-9
5-7-9 1-5-9 5-9-11 3-5-9
1-7-9 1-5-9 1-5-7 5-7-9
1-5-7 1-5-9 1-5-11 1-3-5
1-3-5 3-5-9 1-5-9 1-3-9
3-5-7 3-5-9 3-5-11 1-3-5
3-9-11 5-9-11 3-5-9 3-5-11
3-9-1 1-3-9 3-5-9 3-7-9
1-3-11 1-3-9 1-9-11 3-9-11
1-9-11 1-3-9 1-5-9 1-7-9
1-7-9 3-7-9 1-3-9 1-3-7
7-9-11 3-7-9 5-7-9 1-7-9
5-7-9 3-7-9 3-5-9 3-5-7
3-5-7 1-3-7 3-7-9 3-7-11
1-5-7 1-3-7 1-3-5 3-5-7
1-3-5 1-3-7 1-3-9 1-3-11
1-3-11 3-7-11 3-9-11 1-3-11
3-9-11 3-7-11 3-7-9 7-9-11
7-9-11 1-7-11 3-7-11 5-7-11

Thanks again!

-Chris

> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:03:20 -0000
> > From: "Chris Bryan" <melandchris@g...>
> > Subject: Wandering thoughts
> >
> > Ok, so I thought I'd be more poetic with my titles... :)
> >
> > This is my first foray into the Eikosany, with generous help from
> > Kraig. I started with sine waves, but I kept toying with it, until
> > now it's something completely different! The static sounds were
> > derived from trumpets, and the percussive sounds came from a gamelan
> > instrument. The chordal progression is one of the ones documented by
> > Kraig. One of the cool things I found with the tetrad cycles is that
> > they have interesting patterns alternating between otonal and utonal
> > harmonies, which you can listen for.
> >
> > Let me know what you think! I'm considering these as "study" works,
> > that I may be able to incorporate into something more substantial
later.
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/doe8r
> >
> > -Chris
> >

there are quite a few variations to this.
if one replaces each one these factors with A,B,C,D,E,F as variables then one could use the permutations of the 6 factors of 1,3,5,7,9,11. you have 6x5x4x3x2x1 permutation of 6. 360 variations.
a sixth being starting the same pattern at a different point. another half retrogrades
of course one could also use different eikosanies based on different number and harmonics
giving on endless variations. one could start with the 28 eikosanies found within the hebdomekontany

Chris Bryan wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Prent Rodgers
><prentrodgers@c...> wrote:
> >
>>Chris,
>>This is wonderful. Could you document the specific chordal progression >>in the piece? I'd love to include this in a future podcast, if you give >>your permission.
>> >>
>
>
>Thanks! It's nice to get an e-mail to tickle your ego every once in a
>while ;) And of course you're welcome to podcast it. The chords are
>a cycle of 30 tetrads that was documented by Kraig Grady, so I can't
>take credit for that. Inspection reveals that each tetrad shares 2
>pitches in common with its neighbors, and that the progression
>alternates between otonal and utonal harmonies. The pitch factors, in
>no particular inversion, are as follows:
>
>3-9-11 3-7-11 3-7-9 7-9-11
>7-9-11 1-7-11 3-7-11 5-7-11
>1-9-11 1-7-11 1-7-9 7-9-11
>1-7-9 1-7-11 1-3-7 1-5-7
>1-5-7 5-7-11 1-7-11 1-5-11
>5-7-9 5-7-11 3-5-7 1-5-7
>3-5-11 3-7-11 5-7-11 3-5-7
>3-5-11 1-5-11 5-9-11 5-7-11
>1-3-11 1-5-11 1-3-5 3-5-11
>1-3-11 1-5-11 1-7-11 1-9-11
>1-9-11 5-9-11 1-5-11 1-5-9
>3-9-11 5-9-11 7-9-11 1-9-11
>7-9-11 5-9-11 5-7-11 5-7-9
>5-7-9 1-5-9 5-9-11 3-5-9
>1-7-9 1-5-9 1-5-7 5-7-9
>1-5-7 1-5-9 1-5-11 1-3-5
>1-3-5 3-5-9 1-5-9 1-3-9
>3-5-7 3-5-9 3-5-11 1-3-5
>3-9-11 5-9-11 3-5-9 3-5-11
>3-9-1 1-3-9 3-5-9 3-7-9
>1-3-11 1-3-9 1-9-11 3-9-11
>1-9-11 1-3-9 1-5-9 1-7-9
>1-7-9 3-7-9 1-3-9 1-3-7
>7-9-11 3-7-9 5-7-9 1-7-9
>5-7-9 3-7-9 3-5-9 3-5-7
>3-5-7 1-3-7 3-7-9 3-7-11
>1-5-7 1-3-7 1-3-5 3-5-7
>1-3-5 1-3-7 1-3-9 1-3-11
>1-3-11 3-7-11 3-9-11 1-3-11
>3-9-11 3-7-11 3-7-9 7-9-11
>7-9-11 1-7-11 3-7-11 5-7-11
>
>Thanks again!
>
>-Chris
>
>
> >
>>>Message: 1 >>> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:03:20 -0000
>>> From: "Chris Bryan" <melandchris@g...>
>>>Subject: Wandering thoughts
>>>
>>>Ok, so I thought I'd be more poetic with my titles... :)
>>>
>>>This is my first foray into the Eikosany, with generous help from
>>>Kraig. I started with sine waves, but I kept toying with it, until
>>>now it's something completely different! The static sounds were
>>>derived from trumpets, and the percussive sounds came from a gamelan
>>>instrument. The chordal progression is one of the ones documented by
>>>Kraig. One of the cool things I found with the tetrad cycles is that
>>>they have interesting patterns alternating between otonal and utonal
>>>harmonies, which you can listen for.
>>>
>>>Let me know what you think! I'm considering these as "study" works,
>>>that I may be able to incorporate into something more substantial
>>> >>>
>later.
> >
>>>http://tinyurl.com/doe8r
>>>
>>>-Chris
>>>
>>> >>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:

> Miles is my favorite Music Minus 1

What does that mean?

P,

{you wrote...}
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
>wrote:
>
> > Miles is my favorite Music Minus 1
>
>What does that mean?

Could it be that Miles was so spare in his solos that it is almost like playing along with a band that has the solo gone (like in the "Music Minus 1" recordings)?

Cheers,
Jon

there used to be these records that had music minus one part that you read and played along with the records.
Miles music always leave enough space, that it has always been my favorite music to play along with.
I think they still have these records/cds somewhere as i remembering seeing bartok duo violin music on it.
First with only one part, then with both. almost pre karoke in a way

Paul Erlich wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
>
> >
>> Miles is my favorite Music Minus 1
>> >>
>
>What does that mean?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Kraig,

{you wrote...}
>Miles music always leave enough space, that it has always been my
>favorite music to play along with.

Aha, I was correct in my assumption.

J

exactly.
if you haven't played to this stuff you have missed allot . in fact i don't know how one can listen to it and NOT want to play along!

Jon Szanto wrote:

>P,
>
>{you wrote...}
> >
>>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
>>wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>> Miles is my favorite Music Minus 1
>>> >>>
>>What does that mean?
>> >>
>
>Could it be that Miles was so spare in his solos that it is almost like >playing along with a band that has the solo gone (like in the "Music Minus >1" recordings)?
>
>Cheers,
>Jon >
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Kraig Grady wrote:
> if you haven't played to this stuff you have missed allot . in fact i
> don't know how one can listen to it and NOT want to play along!
>
> Jon Szanto wrote:
> >{you wrote...}
> > >... Kraig Grady ... wrote:
> > > > Miles is my favorite Music Minus 1
> > > >
[Paul Erlich wrote:]
> > >What does that mean?
> > >
> >Could it be that Miles was so spare in his solos that it is almost
> >like playing along with a band that has the solo gone (like in the
> >"Music Minus 1" recordings)?
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Jon

I _love_ it when people make music that "leaves enough space" that
the listener (well, this one, anyway) just _has_ to fill the space
with improvised additions. Conversely, I detest any music that is
_so_ full-blown that there's no space left to improvise even one
part without doubling notes that already exist. I find the open-
ness, the potential, of such "spacy" works very appealing.

Regards,
Yahya

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.5/110 - Release Date: 22/9/05

>> > > > Miles is my favorite Music Minus 1
>> > >
>> > >What does that mean?
>> >
>> >Could it be that Miles was so spare in his solos that it is almost
>> >like playing along with a band that has the solo gone (like in the
>> >"Music Minus 1" recordings)?
>
>I _love_ it when people make music that "leaves enough space" that
>the listener (well, this one, anyway) just _has_ to fill the space
>with improvised additions. Conversely, I detest any music that is
>_so_ full-blown that there's no space left to improvise even one
>part without doubling notes that already exist. I find the open-
>ness, the potential, of such "spacy" works very appealing.

I, on the other hand, never cared for Bitches Brew very much. I
find sparseness in music boring. This doesn't mean I insist on
busy music. There is plenty of uncluttered music that cannot be
improved by adding to it. It means, if I can blow a part that
makes it better without even trying, I consider it unfinished.

-Carl

you are outnumbered on this one. his only gold record.

on the other hand there is all this complex stuff where i can take out half of it and the content remains the same

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>
>
>I, on the other hand, never cared for Bitches Brew very much. I
>find sparseness in music boring. This doesn't mean I insist on
>busy music. There is plenty of uncluttered music that cannot be
>improved by adding to it. It means, if I can blow a part that
>makes it better without even trying, I consider it unfinished.
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

>>I, on the other hand, never cared for Bitches Brew very much. I
>>find sparseness in music boring. This doesn't mean I insist on
>>busy music. There is plenty of uncluttered music that cannot be
>>improved by adding to it. It means, if I can blow a part that
>>makes it better without even trying, I consider it unfinished.

>you are outnumbered on this one.

Don't I know it.

>his only gold record.

I'd hate to hear the others.

>on the other hand there is all this complex stuff where i can take
>out half of it and the content remains the same

No doubt. It's the utility of what's there (Karl Richter spoke
of Mozart as the supreme master in this regard, and that's a good
observation though I don't think I quite agree) that matters.

-Carl

you might like
On the Corner , his most accessible one touted as the most extreme
or the stuff from the 50's especially
Filles de Kilimanjaro

My favorite is still Big Fun.
the tune Great Expectation where you hear the beginning of this haunting melody , it pauses for a minute and then starts again.
one expects it to go on but never does.
Or Go Ahead John
with a guitar solo by Mc laughlin
that is shorting out the whole way through like he has a bad connection.
The flip flopping of the drums on this track is the ultimate mix of any drums ever.
teo makes one drummer sound like two answering each other.
the time it must of taken to get just this one part right must of been staggering

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>>I, on the other hand, never cared for Bitches Brew very much. I
>>>find sparseness in music boring. This doesn't mean I insist on
>>>busy music. There is plenty of uncluttered music that cannot be
>>>improved by adding to it. It means, if I can blow a part that
>>>makes it better without even trying, I consider it unfinished.
>>> >>>
>
> >
>>you are outnumbered on this one.
>> >>
>
>Don't I know it.
>
> >
>>his only gold record.
>> >>
>
>I'd hate to hear the others.
>
> >
>>on the other hand there is all this complex stuff where i can take
>>out half of it and the content remains the same
>> >>
>
>No doubt. It's the utility of what's there (Karl Richter spoke
>of Mozart as the supreme master in this regard, and that's a good
>observation though I don't think I quite agree) that matters.
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Oh, you meant "gold" literally... yes, we'll I'd love to
hear these others, of course. Thanks for the notes.
But I haven't been listening to (or playing) much music
lately. :(

-Carl

At 02:00 PM 9/24/2005, you wrote:
>you might like
>On the Corner , his most accessible one touted as the most extreme
> or the stuff from the 50's especially
>Filles de Kilimanjaro
>
>My favorite is still Big Fun.
> the tune Great Expectation where you hear the beginning of this
>haunting melody , it pauses for a minute and then starts again.
> one expects it to go on but never does.
> Or Go Ahead John
>with a guitar solo by Mc laughlin
> that is shorting out the whole way through like he has a bad connection.
> The flip flopping of the drums on this track is the ultimate mix of any
>drums ever.
> teo makes one drummer sound like two answering each other.
> the time it must of taken to get just this one part right must of been
>staggering
>
>Carl Lumma wrote:
>
>>>>I, on the other hand, never cared for Bitches Brew very much. I
>>>>find sparseness in music boring. This doesn't mean I insist on
>>>>busy music. There is plenty of uncluttered music that cannot be
>>>>improved by adding to it. It means, if I can blow a part that
>>>>makes it better without even trying, I consider it unfinished.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>you are outnumbered on this one.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Don't I know it.
>>
>>
>>
>>>his only gold record.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I'd hate to hear the others.
>>
>>
>>
>>>on the other hand there is all this complex stuff where i can take
>>>out half of it and the content remains the same
>>>
>>>
>>
>>No doubt. It's the utility of what's there (Karl Richter spoke
>>of Mozart as the supreme master in this regard, and that's a good
>>observation though I don't think I quite agree) that matters.
>>
>>-Carl
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>Kraig Grady
>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>The Wandering Medicine Show
>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Kraig Grady wrote:

> you might like
> On the Corner , his most accessible one touted as the most extreme
> or the stuff from the 50's especially
> Filles de Kilimanjaro

Filles is from the same era as In A Silent Way.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

yes forgot that one which also is a good starting place.
i hear that the whole silent way sessions are rather disappointing

David Beardsley wrote:

>Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> >
>>you might like
>>On the Corner , his most accessible one touted as the most extreme
>>or the stuff from the 50's especially
>>Filles de Kilimanjaro
>> >>
>
>Filles is from the same era as In A Silent Way.
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Kraig--is Bachs music what you would consider too busy?

Carl--is Mompou's music what you would consider too sparse? (or if you don't
know that, how about Debussy's 'Footprints in the Snow' from the preludes)

Debussy and Mompou's sparser works would be ruined if you added notes, and
some of Bach's would be ruined if you took notes away.

I love it all for different reasons. I'm glad that there are different moods.

There's even music I love that's hypercomplex that I'm not sure I would notice
if layers were removed--eg Messien 'Chronchromie'. Although, please, give me
this type of thing in *small* doses.

Typical Stockhausen-type complexity, or Elliot Carter-type complexity gives me
the heebie-geebies. No thanks. And I have to be in the mood to indulge some
of Ives' textures. Nancarrow half the time is parse-able, half not it seems.
(in case anyone wants to attack me--I do dig both Ives and Nancarrow very
much)

On the other end of things, the sparser end, I can only listen to much
minimalism for so long, than I get sleepy.

What works for me personally is an adequate tension between the opposite
aesthetics of simplicity and complexity....Sibelius comes to mind as being
right at the sweet spot for me, I rarely get sick of hearing his symphonies
and tone poems.

Although I can get sick of anything after too long, even stuff I love. One
needs a break from anything.

-Aaron.

i actually listening to Carre (stockhausen) at the moment. tyrying to and imagining i can hear the difference between him and Cardew, who did much , if not all the details.
yes this sounds more communistic, oh no that is really is imperialistic etc.

Bach appears to be just the right amount . but when one hears it say on a pipe organ in a church it does become a big texture, a very fine one at that and am sure that JSB was well aware of what this music does in resonant places.
possibly taking this music out of those environments does it a misservice.
true one can hear the different lines better, but maybe he wrote those only for the gods to contmplate.
Bach may be busy but his rhytmn is usually pretty simple and what he rights is essential to his compositions.

i was thinking more along the lines of Free improv while there are some fine artist doing this, tends to be the group that offends my sensibility on this issue the most.

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:

>Kraig--is Bachs music what you would consider too busy?
>
>Carl--is Mompou's music what you would consider too sparse? (or if you don't >know that, how about Debussy's 'Footprints in the Snow' from the preludes)
>
>Debussy and Mompou's sparser works would be ruined if you added notes, and >some of Bach's would be ruined if you took notes away.
>
>I love it all for different reasons. I'm glad that there are different moods.
>
>There's even music I love that's hypercomplex that I'm not sure I would notice >if layers were removed--eg Messien 'Chronchromie'. Although, please, give me >this type of thing in *small* doses.
>
>Typical Stockhausen-type complexity, or Elliot Carter-type complexity gives me >the heebie-geebies. No thanks. And I have to be in the mood to indulge some >of Ives' textures. Nancarrow half the time is parse-able, half not it seems. >(in case anyone wants to attack me--I do dig both Ives and Nancarrow very >much)
>
>On the other end of things, the sparser end, I can only listen to much >minimalism for so long, than I get sleepy.
>
>What works for me personally is an adequate tension between the opposite >aesthetics of simplicity and complexity....Sibelius comes to mind as being >right at the sweet spot for me, I rarely get sick of hearing his symphonies >and tone poems. >
>Although I can get sick of anything after too long, even stuff I love. One >needs a break from anything.
>
>-Aaron.
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

>Kraig--is Bachs music what you would consider too busy?
>
>Carl--is Mompou's music what you would consider too sparse? (or if you
>don't know that, how about Debussy's 'Footprints in the Snow' from the
>preludes)
>
>Debussy and Mompou's sparser works would be ruined if you added notes,
>and some of Bach's would be ruined if you took notes away.

I don't know Mompou very well, but what I've heard seemed pretty
efficient to me. Debussy I like less because it just sounds like sassy
pop-tune arrangements, but I recognize that he was a good composer and
probably his stuff is fairly efficient also. Kraig's own music is
something of a milestone in sparse efficiency, I think. But unsurpassed
in the Western canon is Beethoven. The slow movements of his late
sonatas are simply unbelievable. Second to him, is actually Bach. His
slow movements are also right up there. Easily the equal of these
masters in terms of sparse efficiency is much traditional music,
especially that of the Middle-East and India. As for Davis, it just
sounds like bad lounge music to me. But whatever.

>Typical Stockhausen-type complexity, or Elliot Carter-type complexity
>gives me the heebie-geebies. No thanks.

Carter is an interesting case. It's about as 'out there' as I can
imagine going and still having even a slight hope of being non-garbage.
Maybe even brilliant. I would have dismissed it entirely if not for
Norman Henry, who played me some Carter that really did blow my mind.
But his enjoyment might have been rubbing off on me (that's inseparable
from music, though, isn't it?).

>And I have to be in the mood to indulge some of Ives' textures.

Ives certainly is good, but seems like a one-trick pony to me. Though
perhaps all composers are one-trick ponies...

>Nancarrow half the time is parse-able, half not it seems.

Nancarrow is absolutely one of my favorite composers, and I think one
of the few most significant composers of the previous millennium. It's
100% passable for me, and completely blows Ives out of the water (not
that they were after the same thing).

>On the other end of things, the sparser end, I can only listen to much
>minimalism for so long, than I get sleepy.

It's an interesting question... what is minimal? Is trance (as in,
the techno subgenre) minimal?

>What works for me personally is an adequate tension between the
>opposite aesthetics of simplicity and complexity...

I like both slow/sparse and fast/complex music; I think there's a
place for both. What I'm thinknig is that in either, there can be
efficiency or not...

>Sibelius comes to mind as being right at the sweet spot for me, I
>rarely get sick of hearing his symphonies and tone poems.

Sibelius is a little slap-happy for me sometimes. Do I really mean
that? Maybe I mean 'emotionally forward'.

-Carl

Funny, I was just having a similar discussion about minimalism vs.
complexity as it relates to pitch content with another microtonal composer.
His ideal is a completely "free" Just environment, with any ratio, and any
modulation to any ratio, available at any given time, subject only to his
the intuition. I much prefer an economy of pitch, picking a set beforehand
and sticking to it, whether it be derived from a diamond or mandala or
whatever. I was concerned about his approach that it would be more or less
undecipherable to the listener. But he's written some cool stuff. So maybe
it proves the afore-mentioned point that the complexity balance matters less
than the composer's ability to work within whatever balance is chosen. It's
interesting, my unscientific observations suggest that a person's preference
for complexity or minimality is pretty strongly defined... perhaps it has
its root in personality traits or worldview. I think and respond pretty
slowly, and I tend to prefer minimalism... Hmmm...

:)

-Chris

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Filles De Kilimanjaro is, like, the last 'Quintet' record, to me. In
a Silent Way is the first large group "experiment", on the ramp up to
the real wacky stuff, and progenitor of Weather Report, et al. No?

I like just about ALL of it, Live-Evil, Agharta (which tour I saw),
&c. I recently dug out Get Up With It, and tripped on Red China Blues
with King Curtis' rhythm section..awesome! I never liked it before,
dunno why...except I started working with this blues guy recently, and
the way Miles 'deconstructs' that groove was exactly what I needed to
hear.

Cheers.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> > you might like
> > On the Corner , his most accessible one touted as the most extreme
> > or the stuff from the 50's especially
> > Filles de Kilimanjaro
>
> Filles is from the same era as In A Silent Way.
>
>
>
> --
> * David Beardsley
> * microtonal guitar
> * http://biink.com/db

{you wrote...}
>Filles De Kilimanjaro is, like, the last 'Quintet' record, to me. In a >Silent Way is the first large group "experiment", on the ramp up to the >real wacky stuff, and progenitor of Weather Report, et al. No?

Well put. It is *all* a continuum.

And lost in the shuffle are the two "Live at the Blackhawk" recordings, an obscure but important mark on the jazz landscape of the US at large, and SF in particular. As well as documenting Miles smack-dab in the middle between his revolutionary groups, it captures the group-ness he was so able to develop with his sidemen. Wanna be a witness to history? There it is.

I swear, if I could live in any time/place, I'd be alive in that era, with enough time and cash to go between the Village Vanguard and the Blackhawk (and maybe, later, Shelly's Manne-hole in LA) to watch the revolution in progress.

And the "Working..." and "Steaming..." recordings? Also important.

Human-powered music: we experience so little of it anymore...

Cheers,
Jon

Kraig Grady wrote:

>yes forgot that one which also is a good starting place.
> i hear that the whole silent way sessions are rather disappointing
> >
I think I've only listened to it all the way through once. It's
a bit odd to hear the unedited versions. The original is the best.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

Jon Szanto wrote:

>Human-powered music: we experience so little of it anymore...
>
Yeah, so much is done on a computer these days. And I'm just getting back to
using one for music creation again, to sketch some things out. It's just that
once I got the JI gtr, after spending all day on the computer with the day job,
it was nice to just play guitar.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

db,

{you wrote...}
>It's just that once I got the JI gtr, after spending all day on the >computer with the day job, it was nice to just play guitar.

I don't ever stop being thankful for what I can do with that box of circuit boards, but sometimes when I'm playing live and acoustic I think to myself "this feels so good and so right, why would I ever...?"

Oh well.

Along those lines, I was thinking about Miles' many incredible partners/sidemen, and while I was doing some packing and other stuff, I pulled out a wonderful recording to listen to. In 1978 Herbie Hancock made a solo piano, direct-to-disc (vinyl, obviously) recording in Japan entitled "The Piano" (it was only released outside of Japan in recent years). Just Herbie, a beautiful Steinway, some great tunes, and one gifted human.

Damn.

Cheers,
Jon

ambassadorbob wrote:

>Filles De Kilimanjaro is, like, the last 'Quintet' record, to me. In >a Silent Way is the first large group "experiment", on the ramp up to >the real wacky stuff, and progenitor of Weather Report, et al. No?
> >
You can look at it that way. Sounds good to me.

>I like just about ALL of it, Live-Evil, Agharta (which tour I saw), >&c. I recently dug out Get Up With It, and tripped on Red China Blues >with King Curtis' rhythm section..awesome! I never liked it before, >dunno why...except I started working with this blues guy recently, and >the way Miles 'deconstructs' that groove was exactly what I needed to >hear.
> >
Oh, I love all of it. But I'd say the group with Wayne, Herbie, Tony and Ron is the favorite.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

Jon Szanto wrote:

>And lost in the shuffle are the two "Live at the Blackhawk" recordings, an >obscure but important mark on the jazz landscape of the US at large, and SF >in particular. As well as documenting Miles smack-dab in the middle between >his revolutionary groups, it captures the group-ness he was so able to >develop with his sidemen. Wanna be a witness to history? There it is.
> >
I've heard this, but do not own it.

>I swear, if I could live in any time/place, I'd be alive in that era, with >enough time and cash to go between the Village Vanguard and the Blackhawk >(and maybe, later, Shelly's Manne-hole in LA) to watch the revolution in >progress.
> >
I'd love to go back in time and hear bands. Oh to hear Coltrane's 65-66-67 bands!

As fer the VV, I heard the Paul Motian trio with Bill Frisell and Joe Lavano there
a few weeks ago. Frisell knocks me out. How do you feel about Motian? Have you heard these guys?

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

Jon Szanto wrote:

>db,
>
>{you wrote...}
> >
>>It's just that once I got the JI gtr, after spending all day on the >>computer with the day job, it was nice to just play guitar.
>> >>
>
>I don't ever stop being thankful for what I can do with that box of circuit >boards, but sometimes when I'm playing live and acoustic I think to myself >"this feels so good and so right, why would I ever...?"
>
>Oh well.
>
>Along those lines, I was thinking about Miles' many incredible >partners/sidemen, and while I was doing some packing and other stuff, >
Moving? Some kind of product fulfillment?

>I >pulled out a wonderful recording to listen to. In 1978 Herbie Hancock made >a solo piano, direct-to-disc (vinyl, obviously) recording in Japan entitled >"The Piano" (it was only released outside of Japan in recent years). Just >Herbie, a beautiful Steinway, some great tunes, and one gifted human.
> >
Not familiar with that one. I'd like to hear the one he made with Wayne a few years ago, 1+1?
When it came out I wasn't listening to too much jazz and now it seems to be out of print.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

From the Republicrats/Democans, to musical taste, USA is a very centrist
country. Nothing extreme is tolerated.

On Sunday 25 September 2005 7:57 am, Christopher Bailey wrote:
> From the Republicrats/Democans, to musical taste, USA is a very centrist
> country. Nothing extreme is tolerated.

Actually, the US is quite conservative (the bible belt) as well as being
free-wheeling liberal (Berkeley). The latter is rarer. I see the US as being
*about* polarized extremes, mostly the far right, and nothing in the middle
is considered sensible.

...maybe we're both right about this.

This should go to metatuning.

Hi all,

Carl Lumma wrote:
> >Kraig--is Bachs music what you would consider too busy?
> >
> >Carl--is Mompou's music what you would consider too sparse? (or if you
> >don't know that, how about Debussy's 'Footprints in the Snow' from the
> >preludes)
> >
> >Debussy and Mompou's sparser works would be ruined if you added notes,
> >and some of Bach's would be ruined if you took notes away.

I'd agree with respect to Debussy, but can't comment on Mompou.

> I don't know Mompou very well, but what I've heard seemed pretty
> efficient to me. Debussy I like less because it just sounds like sassy
> pop-tune arrangements, but I recognize that he was a good composer and
> probably his stuff is fairly efficient also. Kraig's own music is
> something of a milestone in sparse efficiency, I think. But unsurpassed
> in the Western canon is Beethoven. The slow movements of his late
> sonatas are simply unbelievable.

OK! Well spotted, that man! :-) But I've gotta say, for mine, I really
very
much prefer his early string quartets - particularly the Cminor (Op 18 No4),
which seems to me to ring the death-knell for classicism. That for me is
about the sweet spot of complexity; it has just enough repetition to feel
formally classical, while at the same time delivering enough emotion to be
decidedly outspoken. But I doubt you could really call it either sparse or
efficient. Much of Mozart seems remarkably sparse to me - I've been
studying the Eb Quintet KV 407 for Horn and strings recently, and it looks
like the reputed complaint of "too many notes, Herr Mozart!" is here totally
unjustified - it's hard to see how such sparse textures can generate the
impression of so much sound. I think he's the bee's knees when it comes to
an eloquent simplicity.

> ... Second to him, is actually Bach. His
> slow movements are also right up there.

You know, after several decades, I'm still learning new things about
voicing and part-writing every time I work through Bach's Two-Part
Inventions - proof positive that "less is more".

> Easily the equal of these
> masters in terms of sparse efficiency is much traditional music,
> especially that of the Middle-East and India.

Seconded! I may have mentioned before that I'm also partial to
Bollywood music. While much of it is overblown, some of it is way
up there with the best of classical Indian music for the skill of the
artists in setting a beautiful melody simply. When combined with
the power and beauty of a voice like Lata Mangeshkar's, the result
is as good as it gets.

> As for Davis, it just
> sounds like bad lounge music to me. But whatever.

Haven't heard enough Miles Davis to know. The jazz my parents
knew and loved ended sometime during WWII; the only jazz I've
paid much attention to since then is the Dave Brubeck quartet,
basically because of their rhythmic innovations. (Paul Desmond
is the MAN!) Some of their stuff seems close to perfect for me,
eg Waltz Limp.

>
> >Typical Stockhausen-type complexity, or Elliot Carter-type complexity
> >gives me the heebie-geebies. No thanks.

Stockhausen makes no musical sense to me. And I doubt he ever
will.

>
> Carter is an interesting case. It's about as 'out there' as I can
> imagine going and still having even a slight hope of being non-garbage.
> Maybe even brilliant. I would have dismissed it entirely if not for
> Norman Henry, who played me some Carter that really did blow my mind.
> But his enjoyment might have been rubbing off on me (that's inseparable
> from music, though, isn't it?).

It helps if you're already enjoying yourself when you first hear
a new piece - you're much more likely to want to hear it again.

>
> >And I have to be in the mood to indulge some of Ives' textures.
>
> Ives certainly is good, but seems like a one-trick pony to me. Though
> perhaps all composers are one-trick ponies...

No way! You're just being provoking, Carl ... :-) In case you were
serious, let me again instance the late great WA Mozart.

> >Nancarrow half the time is parse-able, half not it seems.
>
> Nancarrow is absolutely one of my favorite composers, and I think one
> of the few most significant composers of the previous millennium. It's
> 100% passable for me, and completely blows Ives out of the water (not
> that they were after the same thing).

Hmmm ... don't know Nancarrow - what should I listen to first?

> >On the other end of things, the sparser end, I can only listen to much
> >minimalism for so long, than I get sleepy.
>
> It's an interesting question... what is minimal? Is trance (as in,
> the techno subgenre) minimal?

Seems that way to me - I can hardly tell the pieces apart :-)
But for another recent popular genre that, to my mind, better
qualifies for the title "minimal music", consider Drum & Bass.
Done well, it has that steady foward momentum that gives music
a sense of inevitability, while being sparse enough to leave the
occasional strategically-placed aching hole in the texture - a
sweet balance between tension and release. (Please don't ask me to
name any works or composers; I just recognise what works when I'm
dancing to it.)

> >What works for me personally is an adequate tension between the
> >opposite aesthetics of simplicity and complexity...
>
> I like both slow/sparse and fast/complex music; I think there's a
> place for both. What I'm thinknig is that in either, there can be
> efficiency or not...

Why is efficiency important? For me, one note too many begins
to take on the character of noise - it interferes with the purity
and clarity of the musical "message". It's like driving your shiny
new Jaguar through the rain and splashing it with mud - not pretty.

> >Sibelius comes to mind as being right at the sweet spot for me, I
> >rarely get sick of hearing his symphonies and tone poems.
>
> Sibelius is a little slap-happy for me sometimes. Do I really mean
> that? Maybe I mean 'emotionally forward'.

I don't "get" Sibelius. What I've heard of his works simply didn't
hold my attention. I guess I could say that his music seems rather
obvious. In fact, I'd label it "wallpaper music" - it's impossible to
keep one's attention on it, and as it fades in to the background,
one finds onself looking around for someone to strike up a REAL
conversation with. Of course, I could be entirely wrong!

Regards,
Yahya

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.6/111 - Release Date: 23/9/05

Yahya,

{you wrote...}
>Seconded! I may have mentioned before that I'm also partial to Bollywood >music. While much of it is overblown, some of it is way up there with the >best of classical Indian music for the skill of the artists in setting a >beautiful melody simply. When combined with the power and beauty of a >voice like Lata Mangeshkar's, the result is as good as it gets.

Could you recommend a couple of recordings, or maybe a site to do some exploration? This is one of those very large musical worlds (and film, obviously) that I am at a point of almost complete ignorance. What little I've heard has certainly seemed like there must be some very cool stuff, but I am overwhelmed.

>Hmmm ... don't know Nancarrow - what should I listen to first?

I don't know how you would listen to it 'first', that is a hard one. I'm guessing you might know that virtually all of his work was for player piano, that he developed his own punching machines to create piano rolls of inhuman complexity, allowing for things that there aren't enough fingers (and fingers fast enough) to play. I don't know if there are small collections of his recordings, as I until recently only had an old double-LP of some of the pieces, but in the last couple of years Wergo released a box set of all the player piano music with very deep and extensive notes by James Tenney:

http://tinyurl.com/79tav

You can also get a good start on the composer by seeing Kyle Gann's page:

http://www.kylegann.com/index2.html

Cheers,
Jon

On Sunday 25 September 2005 10:28 am, Yahya Abdal-Aziz wrote:

> I don't "get" Sibelius. What I've heard of his works simply didn't
> hold my attention. I guess I could say that his music seems rather
> obvious. In fact, I'd label it "wallpaper music" - it's impossible to
> keep one's attention on it, and as it fades in to the background,
> one finds onself looking around for someone to strike up a REAL
> conversation with. Of course, I could be entirely wrong!

In my opinion, you are.

Sibelius' true inspiration is nature, in particular the nature of Northern
Scandanavia. If you are in bliss on a mountain hike, or in the winter forest,
you 'get' Sibelius, because he conjures up that non-human world so
beautifully. It is music by and of solitude. I don't think one can say that
any other composer's music is so in tune with the idea of northern wilderness
as Sibelius'.

Of course, I'm Scandanavian-American, maybe it's genetic! ;) What can I say? I
agree with Glenn Gould when he says "I couldn't go on living with Sibelius'
5th symphony". For me, ditto the 3rd, 4th, 6th......

And my God, have you ever heard 'Tapiola'? I think that is the most stunning
piece of music ever written in terms of sheer imagination of the sound-world.
So different than anything trendy that was going on elsewhere in Europe.
That's what I love about Sibelius: he stands alone, outside of any 'school'.
For starters, listern to Karajan (not someone I like in general, but he
*really* understands Sibelius very well) conduct Tapiola, on of the 1960's
recordings. Karajan so loved Sibelius that he insisted on conducting the 4th
at his inaugural at a time when the German public was lukewarm at best
towards his music. (It wasn't continental 'German' enough for them like the
dazzle of Richard Strauss, I suppose)

I hope you can really start listening with the largest mind and heart
possible, and not skip over or dismiss the music of this true master.

Best,
Aaron.

On Saturday 24 September 2005 7:31 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >Kraig--is Bachs music what you would consider too busy?
> >
> >Carl--is Mompou's music what you would consider too sparse? (or if you
> >don't know that, how about Debussy's 'Footprints in the Snow' from the
> >preludes)
> >
> >Debussy and Mompou's sparser works would be ruined if you added notes,
> >and some of Bach's would be ruined if you took notes away.
>
> I don't know Mompou very well, but what I've heard seemed pretty
> efficient to me. Debussy I like less because it just sounds like sassy
> pop-tune arrangements, but I recognize that he was a good composer and
> probably his stuff is fairly efficient also.

What Debussy could you possibly be referring to? Ok, the Golliwog's Cake-walk,
but that's hardly representative. Have you heard for instance, all of the
piano Etudes? Listen to the last one, 'Pour les Accords'. It's a stunningly
kick-ass piece that thrills me everytime. One of my favorite piano pieces to
play as an encore-type thing is 'L'Isle Joyeuse', a goose-bump explosion of
joy and color.

Let's not forget what an amazing, amazing innovator and orchestrator Debussy
was. He invented modernity in music with 'L'Apres-midi d'un Faun'

> Kraig's own music is
> something of a milestone in sparse efficiency, I think.

Kraig is certainly a master at what he does, and his beautiful stuff stands
apart and deserves more attention.

> But unsurpassed
> in the Western canon is Beethoven. The slow movements of his late
> sonatas are simply unbelievable.

You won't hear me argue with you...!

> Second to him, is actually Bach.

I'm not sure I would rank anything at this very high level as being 'best' or
'better'. Let's just say I think life would be a mistake without either Bach
or Beethoven.

> His
> slow movements are also right up there. Easily the equal of these
> masters in terms of sparse efficiency is much traditional music,
> especially that of the Middle-East and India.

Yes...

> As for Davis, it just
> sounds like bad lounge music to me. But whatever.

I like his space, and he's certainly been jazz's greatest innovator, but my
enthusiasm for most jazz lately is not great. Jazz is much too conservative a
medium, and much too cocky with its personalities. It hasn't done anything
really new in a long time. And the egos of the players turn me off; they act
like sports stars. Most of it is drenching in sickly sentimentality. How many
more times do we need to hear something like 'Autumn Leaves'? Yuk.

Anything that chooses as a main source of inspiration the likes of cheesy
Broadway music is bound to suck ass.

BTW, I read Miles' biography, and he was a racist prick. I'll grant his
importance, but what an asshole.

>
> >Nancarrow half the time is parse-able, half not it seems.
>
> Nancarrow is absolutely one of my favorite composers, and I think one
> of the few most significant composers of the previous millennium. It's
> 100% passable for me, and completely blows Ives out of the water (not
> that they were after the same thing).

I love Nancarrow, like I said, but I think it's probably not very constructive
to even compare him to Ives, although they were both rhythmic innovators.

Do you have the Mischakoff-Ensemble Modern arrangement album of Nancarrow's
stuff? It's amazing.

I think I prefer Ives' solo piano music to any of his orchestral works...

> >On the other end of things, the sparser end, I can only listen to much
> >minimalism for so long, than I get sleepy.
>
> It's an interesting question... what is minimal? Is trance (as in,
> the techno subgenre) minimal?

Well, I love things like Aphex Twin. It's so good, it becomes compositional.
Most of that type of thing seems kind of trashy to me, though.

And I have little patience for music whose main purpose is political
statement. The word 'genius' gets used all too liberally for those types.

> >What works for me personally is an adequate tension between the
> >opposite aesthetics of simplicity and complexity...
>
> I like both slow/sparse and fast/complex music; I think there's a
> place for both. What I'm thinknig is that in either, there can be
> efficiency or not...
>
> >Sibelius comes to mind as being right at the sweet spot for me, I
> >rarely get sick of hearing his symphonies and tone poems.
>
> Sibelius is a little slap-happy for me sometimes. Do I really mean
> that? Maybe I mean 'emotionally forward'.

What do you mean by 'slap-happy'. See my response re:Sibelius elsewhere.

-Aaron.

AKJ,

{you wrote...}
>On Saturday 24 September 2005 7:31 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> > Debussy I like less because it just sounds like sassy
> > pop-tune arrangements, but I recognize that he was a good composer and
> > probably his stuff is fairly efficient also.
>
>What Debussy could you possibly be referring to?

Well, my word, he certainly has never heard "La Mer". Seeing as you like Sibelius and his portrayal of the natural world, this piece seems an emblem of capturing the environment, much as the Impressionists did.

>Kraig is certainly a master at what he does, and his beautiful stuff >stands apart and deserves more attention.

Deserves a MacArthur grant, AFAIC.

>I like his space, and he's certainly been jazz's greatest innovator, but my
>enthusiasm for most jazz lately is not great. Jazz is much too conservative a
>medium

I guess I won't even touch that. It appears all you've been listening to are the young lion artists that only the record companies promote (from Wynton on down). I go to hear as much live as I can, and continue to be inspired by not only the language but the skillful artistry of a great improvisor, something most classical 'performers' should give their eye-teeth for. Just last week heard Carla Bley - it's been 20 years since she played here - with only a quartet (instead of her usual big band/large ensembles), and it was as good as sounds in the air get. Conservative? She came out and, in her completely dorky (and disarming) way, announced "Tonight won't be any different from any other night. We'll start with the National Anthem". Pause. "It is in seven movements."

Then followed a suite, with motifs taken from fragments of the melody and harmony and then completely turned inside out. Recognizable, but not. And a rather big gamble to start, as this wasn't easy listening. Ended in a stroke of brilliance on solo piano, and brought down the house. It went up from there.

I could be wrong, but at least your written comments give as short a shrift to the challenging and talented jazz artists of today as Carl's did to the music of Debussy. Oh well, that's why mileages vary...

Cheers,
Jon

>> From the Republicrats/Democans, to musical taste, USA is a very
>> centrist country. Nothing extreme is tolerated.
>
>Actually, the US is quite conservative (the bible belt) as well as being
>free-wheeling liberal (Berkeley). The latter is rarer. I see the US as
>being *about* polarized extremes, mostly the far right, and nothing in
>the middle is considered sensible.
>
>...maybe we're both right about this.
>
>This should go to metatuning.

The country is definitely more polarized than it's been in my
lifetime. But I think the comparison of music and politics is
unwarranted here (though in principle it's a valid kind of
comparison).

-Carl

>> I don't know Mompou very well, but what I've heard seemed pretty
>> efficient to me. Debussy I like less because it just sounds like sassy
>> pop-tune arrangements, but I recognize that he was a good composer and
>> probably his stuff is fairly efficient also. Kraig's own music is
>> something of a milestone in sparse efficiency, I think. But unsurpassed
>> in the Western canon is Beethoven. The slow movements of his late
>> sonatas are simply unbelievable.
>
>OK! Well spotted, that man! :-) But I've gotta say, for mine, I really
>very much prefer his early string quartets - particularly the
>Cminor (Op 18 No4), which seems to me to ring the death-knell for
>classicism.

That's a great quartet.

>Much of Mozart seems remarkably sparse to me - I've been
>studying the Eb Quintet KV 407 for Horn and strings recently, and it looks
>like the reputed complaint of "too many notes, Herr Mozart!" is here totally
>unjustified - it's hard to see how such sparse textures can generate the
>impression of so much sound.

I'm not familiar with that quintet off the top of my head, but I do
agree that the "too many notes" thing is way off-base.

>> ... Second to him, is actually Bach. His
>> slow movements are also right up there.
>
>You know, after several decades, I'm still learning new things about
>voicing and part-writing every time I work through Bach's Two-Part
>Inventions - proof positive that "less is more".

Yup.

>> Easily the equal of these
>> masters in terms of sparse efficiency is much traditional music,
>> especially that of the Middle-East and India.
>
>Seconded! I may have mentioned before that I'm also partial to
>Bollywood music. While much of it is overblown, some of it is way
>up there with the best of classical Indian music for the skill of
>the artists in setting a beautiful melody simply.

I'm not familiar with Bollywood music... I've always assumed
(unfairly, it seems) it did a tremendous disservice to the classical
forms.

>> >Typical Stockhausen-type complexity, or Elliot Carter-type complexity
>> >gives me the heebie-geebies. No thanks.
>
>Stockhausen makes no musical sense to me. And I doubt he ever
>will.

Ditto.

>> >And I have to be in the mood to indulge some of Ives' textures.
>>
>> Ives certainly is good, but seems like a one-trick pony to me. Though
>> perhaps all composers are one-trick ponies...
>
>No way! You're just being provoking, Carl ... :-) In case you were
>serious, let me again instance the late great WA Mozart.

What does Mozart have to do with Ives?

>> >Nancarrow half the time is parse-able, half not it seems.
>>
>> Nancarrow is absolutely one of my favorite composers, and I think one
>> of the few most significant composers of the previous millennium. It's
>> 100% passable for me, and completely blows Ives out of the water (not
>> that they were after the same thing).
>
>Hmmm ... don't know Nancarrow - what should I listen to first?

There's only 1 thing... the player piano studies. Actually, there
may be more stuff these days... I think some groups have attempted
to perform some of those studies and/or his (very rare) early
instrumental music... anybody know more about this?

>> >What works for me personally is an adequate tension between the
>> >opposite aesthetics of simplicity and complexity...
>>
>> I like both slow/sparse and fast/complex music; I think there's a
>> place for both. What I'm thinknig is that in either, there can be
>> efficiency or not...
>
>Why is efficiency important? For me, one note too many begins
>to take on the character of noise - it interferes with the purity
>and clarity of the musical "message". It's like driving your shiny
>new Jaguar through the rain and splashing it with mud - not pretty.

By efficiency I mean doing a lot with a little.

>> >Sibelius comes to mind as being right at the sweet spot for me, I
>> >rarely get sick of hearing his symphonies and tone poems.
>>
>> Sibelius is a little slap-happy for me sometimes. Do I really mean
>> that? Maybe I mean 'emotionally forward'.
>
>I don't "get" Sibelius. What I've heard of his works simply didn't
>hold my attention. I guess I could say that his music seems rather
>obvious. In fact, I'd label it "wallpaper music" - it's impossible to
>keep one's attention on it, and as it fades in to the background,
>one finds onself looking around for someone to strike up a REAL
>conversation with. Of course, I could be entirely wrong!

I thought so too, but some of the Sibelius lovers on these lists
forced me to take another listen... there's more going on than
that, but maybe I'm just too old a dog to learn nen composers at
this point!

-Carl

>> >Kraig--is Bachs music what you would consider too busy?
>> >
>> >Carl--is Mompou's music what you would consider too sparse? (or if you
>> >don't know that, how about Debussy's 'Footprints in the Snow' from the
>> >preludes)
>> >
>> >Debussy and Mompou's sparser works would be ruined if you added notes,
>> >and some of Bach's would be ruined if you took notes away.
>>
>> I don't know Mompou very well, but what I've heard seemed pretty
>> efficient to me. Debussy I like less because it just sounds like sassy
>> pop-tune arrangements, but I recognize that he was a good composer and
>> probably his stuff is fairly efficient also.
>
>What Debussy could you possibly be referring to?

All of it. Even some of the more heady etudes.

>Have you heard for instance, all of the piano Etudes?

I swear I didn't read this before I wrote the above.

>Let's not forget what an amazing, amazing innovator and
>orchestrator Debussy was.

Yeah, he gets credit for that.

>> As for Davis, it just sounds like bad lounge music to me. But whatever.
>
>I like his space, and he's certainly been jazz's greatest innovator, but my
>enthusiasm for most jazz lately is not great. Jazz is much too conservative a
>medium, and much too cocky with its personalities. It hasn't done anything
>really new in a long time. And the egos of the players turn me off; they act
>like sports stars. Most of it is drenching in sickly sentimentality. How many
>more times do we need to hear something like 'Autumn Leaves'? Yuk.

I dunno... Thelonious Monk's sounds remain, after years of hard use,
among my favorite.

>Anything that chooses as a main source of inspiration the likes of cheesy
>Broadway music is bound to suck ass.

I think you've got that the wrong way 'round.

>BTW, I read Miles' biography, and he was a racist prick. I'll grant his
>importance, but what an asshole.

One of my best friends read that and liked it. Go figure. I just
think his music wasn't very good.

>Do you have the Mischakoff-Ensemble Modern arrangement album of Nancarrow's
>stuff? It's amazing.

Aha!

>I think I prefer Ives' solo piano music to any of his orchestral works...

Ditto. I have a ton of it, including the Ives plays Ives thing. And
all his symphonies. And ultra-hard-to-get recordings of his string
quartets.

>> >On the other end of things, the sparser end, I can only listen to much
>> >minimalism for so long, than I get sleepy.
>>
>> It's an interesting question... what is minimal? Is trance (as in,
>> the techno subgenre) minimal?
>
>Well, I love things like Aphex Twin. It's so good, it becomes compositional.
>Most of that type of thing seems kind of trashy to me, though.

I am pretty blown-away by some of the cutting edge electronica I've
heard. You NYers, check out Brian Charrette for one... incredible
musician with an incredible range... everything from Jazz-infused
Drums 'n Bass to straight ahead jazz (but with a twist). Squarepusher,
but even that is so 1999. Some of the "glitch" stuff that was
flying around Keyboard and on this list, even, is just insane.
I love it!

>And I have little patience for music whose main purpose is political
>statement. The word 'genius' gets used all too liberally for those types.

DJs?

>> I like both slow/sparse and fast/complex music; I think there's a
>> place for both. What I'm thinknig is that in either, there can be
>> efficiency or not...
>>
>> >Sibelius comes to mind as being right at the sweet spot for me, I
>> >rarely get sick of hearing his symphonies and tone poems.
>>
>> Sibelius is a little slap-happy for me sometimes. Do I really mean
>> that? Maybe I mean 'emotionally forward'.
>
>What do you mean by 'slap-happy'. See my response re:Sibelius elsewhere.

New-agey?

-Carl

On Sunday 25 September 2005 3:00 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >> >Kraig--is Bachs music what you would consider too busy?
> >> >
> >> >Carl--is Mompou's music what you would consider too sparse? (or if you
> >> >don't know that, how about Debussy's 'Footprints in the Snow' from the
> >> >preludes)
> >> >
> >> >Debussy and Mompou's sparser works would be ruined if you added notes,
> >> >and some of Bach's would be ruined if you took notes away.
> >>
> >> I don't know Mompou very well, but what I've heard seemed pretty
> >> efficient to me. Debussy I like less because it just sounds like sassy
> >> pop-tune arrangements, but I recognize that he was a good composer and
> >> probably his stuff is fairly efficient also.
> >
> >What Debussy could you possibly be referring to?
>
> All of it. Even some of the more heady etudes.
>
> >Have you heard for instance, all of the piano Etudes?
>
> I swear I didn't read this before I wrote the above.

Listen again to the last etude, for instance. If that's a 'sassy pop-tune
arrangement', then I guess 'sassy pop-tune arrangement' carry the potential
to be some of the best music out there.
>
> >Let's not forget what an amazing, amazing innovator and
> >orchestrator Debussy was.
>
> Yeah, he gets credit for that.

<phew>

>
> >> As for Davis, it just sounds like bad lounge music to me. But whatever.
> >
> >I like his space, and he's certainly been jazz's greatest innovator, but
> > my enthusiasm for most jazz lately is not great. Jazz is much too
> > conservative a medium, and much too cocky with its personalities. It
> > hasn't done anything really new in a long time. And the egos of the
> > players turn me off; they act like sports stars. Most of it is drenching
> > in sickly sentimentality. How many more times do we need to hear
> > something like 'Autumn Leaves'? Yuk.
>
> I dunno... Thelonious Monk's sounds remain, after years of hard use,
> among my favorite.

Yes, I love Monk. But he stands apart, don't you think?

> >> I like both slow/sparse and fast/complex music; I think there's a
> >> place for both. What I'm thinknig is that in either, there can be
> >> efficiency or not...
> >>
> >> >Sibelius comes to mind as being right at the sweet spot for me, I
> >> >rarely get sick of hearing his symphonies and tone poems.
> >>
> >> Sibelius is a little slap-happy for me sometimes. Do I really mean
> >> that? Maybe I mean 'emotionally forward'.
> >
> >What do you mean by 'slap-happy'. See my response re:Sibelius elsewhere.
>
> New-agey?

That's not the word I would use to describe Sibelius one whit. What have you
actually heard really well? Listen to 'Tapiola', close your eyes as you do
so, and tell me that that is not the most magical piece of music. The
transcendent depth of it is astounding....how could you even say 'New Age' so
glibly? Yanni is 'New Age'. Sibelius is just a Scandanavian musical Buddha.

It takes a bit to dig into what he has done, but it is well known that
underneath his music's rare and ethereal beauty and originality lies some of
the most sophisticated sense of musical form to have emerged from any
composer at any time, period. Nothing in Sibelius' finest work is at all
superficial, hence the problem many have relating to it: you have to go into
it, enter its world fully.

He was subtle, and didn't put his music into pre-defined formal molds such as
sonata form without a whole lot of organic feeling-out. In this way as a
formal innovator he perhaps even surpasses Beethoven, who was no slouch at
the same thing. One could spend hours studying the subtle stuff going on in
any of his works. Analysis of 'Tapiola' reveals that the entire length of it
is organically derived from the opening couple of measures. It never even
leaves B minor, but still creates a vast and magnificent canvas. There are
harmonies in there that are so original and alien to anything else that was
happening in Europe at the time. Furthermore, he had the good sense not to go
into megomaniacal proportions and length, like some other Germanic composers
who shall remain nameless, but instead, stuck to saying what needed to be
said with concision, without sacrificing a sense of cosmic time.

That having been said, he *did* write some trite salon-type pieces, and some
of his earlier tone poems don't do it for me. But his best music ranks up
there with anything by anyone else, and puts him in the top drawer of all
composers ever for me. I could live without Stravinsky on a desert isle for
sure, if I could keep Sibelius.

Brilliant composer, one of my favorite spirits that the Earth ever produced.

-Aaron.

On Sunday 25 September 2005 1:06 pm, Jon Szanto wrote:
> AKJ,
>
> {you wrote...}
>
> >On Saturday 24 September 2005 7:31 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> > > Debussy I like less because it just sounds like sassy
> > > pop-tune arrangements, but I recognize that he was a good composer and
> > > probably his stuff is fairly efficient also.
> >
> >What Debussy could you possibly be referring to?
>
> Well, my word, he certainly has never heard "La Mer". Seeing as you like
> Sibelius and his portrayal of the natural world, this piece seems an emblem
> of capturing the environment, much as the Impressionists did.

Agreed....Debussy's 'La Mer' is to the sea what Sibelius' 'Tapiola' is to the
forest is an oft-quoted comparison.

> >Kraig is certainly a master at what he does, and his beautiful stuff
> >stands apart and deserves more attention.
>
> Deserves a MacArthur grant, AFAIC.

Yes.

> >I like his space, and he's certainly been jazz's greatest innovator, but
> > my enthusiasm for most jazz lately is not great. Jazz is much too
> > conservative a medium
>
> I guess I won't even touch that. It appears all you've been listening to
> are the young lion artists that only the record companies promote (from
> Wynton on down). I go to hear as much live as I can, and continue to be
> inspired by not only the language but the skillful artistry of a great
> improvisor, something most classical 'performers' should give their
> eye-teeth for. Just last week heard Carla Bley - it's been 20 years since
> she played here - with only a quartet (instead of her usual big band/large
> ensembles), and it was as good as sounds in the air get. Conservative? She
> came out and, in her completely dorky (and disarming) way, announced
> "Tonight won't be any different from any other night. We'll start with the
> National Anthem". Pause. "It is in seven movements."
>
> Then followed a suite, with motifs taken from fragments of the melody and
> harmony and then completely turned inside out. Recognizable, but not. And a
> rather big gamble to start, as this wasn't easy listening. Ended in a
> stroke of brilliance on solo piano, and brought down the house. It went up
> from there.
>
> I could be wrong, but at least your written comments give as short a shrift
> to the challenging and talented jazz artists of today as Carl's did to the
> music of Debussy. Oh well, that's why mileages vary...

Well, in my defense, I do love *some* jazz artists immensely: Oscar Peterson,
Monk, Coltrane, Brad Meldau, Tatum, Stan Getz.

What I should say is that these days, I don't find myself in the mood to
listen to a lot of jazz, period. That's all. I shouldn't have slammed it at
all, unfairly....

Best,
Aaron.

such a thing would be more beneficial now than at any other time i must say.

but i don't know if i deserve my name in the same sentence as Debussy,
who i picture my relationship with best paraphrased from Breton as a " bird soaring above, that i can only hope to barely amuse from my uppermost tower."
Jon Szanto wrote:

>
> >
>>Kraig is certainly a master at what he does, and his beautiful stuff >>stands apart and deserves more attention.
>> >>
>
>Deserves a MacArthur grant, AFAIC.
>
> >
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

>>> What Debussy could you possibly be referring to?
>>
>> All of it. Even some of the more heady etudes.
>>
>>> Have you heard for instance, all of the piano Etudes?
>>
>> I swear I didn't read this before I wrote the above.
>
>Listen again to the last etude, for instance. If that's a 'sassy
>pop-tune arrangement', then I guess 'sassy pop-tune arrangement'
>carry the potential to be some of the best music out there.

I think I heard it performed live not long ago. Lessee, I have
it here; Mitsuko Uchida. Nope, this is a different one.
Pour les Accords? A very bland and mechanical performance, here,
unfortunately. I think I have another version but this'll do.
Sounds like Liszt, only less German (that's bad).

>> >> As for Davis, it just sounds like bad lounge music to me. But
>> >> whatever.
>> >
>> >I like his space, and he's certainly been jazz's greatest innovator,
>> >but my enthusiasm for most jazz lately is not great.
>>
>> I dunno... Thelonious Monk's sounds remain, after years of hard use,
>> among my favorite.
>
>Yes, I love Monk. But he stands apart, don't you think?

I guess I do. But I like pretty much all bop, and groups like
The Bad Plus wet my whistle (have you seen Violet Cavern?).

>> >> I like both slow/sparse and fast/complex music; I think there's a
>> >> place for both. What I'm thinknig is that in either, there can be
>> >> efficiency or not...
>> >>
>> >> >Sibelius comes to mind as being right at the sweet spot for me, I
>> >> >rarely get sick of hearing his symphonies and tone poems.
>> >>
>> >> Sibelius is a little slap-happy for me sometimes. Do I really mean
>> >> that? Maybe I mean 'emotionally forward'.
>> >
>> >What do you mean by 'slap-happy'. See my response re:Sibelius
>> >elsewhere.
>>
>> New-agey?
>
>That's not the word I would use to describe Sibelius one whit. What have
>you actually heard really well? Listen to 'Tapiola', close your eyes as
>you do so, and tell me that that is not the most magical piece of music.
>The transcendent depth of it is astounding....how could you even say
>'New Age' so glibly? Yanni is 'New Age'. Sibelius is just a Scandanavian
>musical Buddha.

:)

I'm familiar with the 4th symphony, the C Maj piano trio, Eb string
quartet, and G min quintet. This is stuff I picked up since hearing
your high opinion of him, and I like it fairly well. I sold my 1st
round of Sibelius CDs... I had the complete symphonies, which felt
like, if I played them on a DX-7 I could sell it to Windham Hill.
On the other hand, I was a 19-year-old little snot at the time.

>Brilliant composer, one of my favorite spirits that the Earth ever
>produced.

I have notes here from the last time this came up on metatuning...

Sibelius
7 symphonies and some tone poems
Paavo Berglund with the Helsinki and Bournemouth orchestras
Jukka-Pekka Saraste with Finnish Radio Symphony

The 4th symphony and Tapiola are perhaps his most radically
modern works. For pure joyous emotional impact, it's hard to top
the 5th symphony finale.

...I've pretty-much stopped buying CDs, but if I ever do again I'll
pick these up.

-Carl

On Sunday 25 September 2005 5:01 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >>> What Debussy could you possibly be referring to?
> >>
> >> All of it. Even some of the more heady etudes.
> >>
> >>> Have you heard for instance, all of the piano Etudes?
> >>
> >> I swear I didn't read this before I wrote the above.
> >
> >Listen again to the last etude, for instance. If that's a 'sassy
> >pop-tune arrangement', then I guess 'sassy pop-tune arrangement'
> >carry the potential to be some of the best music out there.
>
> I think I heard it performed live not long ago. Lessee, I have
> it here; Mitsuko Uchida. Nope, this is a different one.
> Pour les Accords? A very bland and mechanical performance, here,
> unfortunately. I think I have another version but this'll do.
> Sounds like Liszt, only less German (that's bad).

Oh, whatever, there's no pleasing you.

> >> >> As for Davis, it just sounds like bad lounge music to me. But
> >> >> whatever.
> >> >
> >> >I like his space, and he's certainly been jazz's greatest innovator,
> >> >but my enthusiasm for most jazz lately is not great.
> >>
> >> I dunno... Thelonious Monk's sounds remain, after years of hard use,
> >> among my favorite.
> >
> >Yes, I love Monk. But he stands apart, don't you think?
>
> I guess I do. But I like pretty much all bop, and groups like
> The Bad Plus wet my whistle (have you seen Violet Cavern?).

Nope.

> >> >> I like both slow/sparse and fast/complex music; I think there's a
> >> >> place for both. What I'm thinknig is that in either, there can be
> >> >> efficiency or not...
> >> >>
> >> >> >Sibelius comes to mind as being right at the sweet spot for me, I
> >> >> >rarely get sick of hearing his symphonies and tone poems.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sibelius is a little slap-happy for me sometimes. Do I really mean
> >> >> that? Maybe I mean 'emotionally forward'.
> >> >
> >> >What do you mean by 'slap-happy'. See my response re:Sibelius
> >> >elsewhere.
> >>
> >> New-agey?
> >
> >That's not the word I would use to describe Sibelius one whit. What have
> >you actually heard really well? Listen to 'Tapiola', close your eyes as
> >you do so, and tell me that that is not the most magical piece of music.
> >The transcendent depth of it is astounding....how could you even say
> >'New Age' so glibly? Yanni is 'New Age'. Sibelius is just a Scandanavian
> >musical Buddha.
> >
> :)
>
> I'm familiar with the 4th symphony, the C Maj piano trio, Eb string
> quartet, and G min quintet. This is stuff I picked up since hearing
> your high opinion of him, and I like it fairly well. I sold my 1st
> round of Sibelius CDs... I had the complete symphonies, which felt
> like, if I played them on a DX-7 I could sell it to Windham Hill.
> On the other hand, I was a 19-year-old little snot at the time.

Playing anything on a DX-7 is pretty lame. Are we to judge music by how well
it comes off on a DX-7?

> >Brilliant composer, one of my favorite spirits that the Earth ever
> >produced.
>
> I have notes here from the last time this came up on metatuning...
>
> Sibelius
> 7 symphonies and some tone poems
> Paavo Berglund with the Helsinki and Bournemouth orchestras
> Jukka-Pekka Saraste with Finnish Radio Symphony
>
> The 4th symphony and Tapiola are perhaps his most radically
> modern works. For pure joyous emotional impact, it's hard to top
> the 5th symphony finale.
>
> ...I've pretty-much stopped buying CDs, but if I ever do again I'll
> pick these up.

Well, when you're out here, we'll have to do some listening.

-Aaron.

>> I have notes here from the last time this came up on metatuning...
>>
>> Sibelius
>> 7 symphonies and some tone poems
>> Paavo Berglund with the Helsinki and Bournemouth orchestras
>> Jukka-Pekka Saraste with Finnish Radio Symphony
>>
>> The 4th symphony and Tapiola are perhaps his most radically
>> modern works. For pure joyous emotional impact, it's hard to top
>> the 5th symphony finale.
>>
>> ...I've pretty-much stopped buying CDs, but if I ever do again I'll
>> pick these up.
>
>Well, when you're out here, we'll have to do some listening.

Def!

-Carl

>> I'm familiar with the 4th symphony, the C Maj piano trio, Eb string
>> quartet, and G min quintet. This is stuff I picked up since hearing
>> your high opinion of him, and I like it fairly well. I sold my 1st
>> round of Sibelius CDs... I had the complete symphonies, which felt
>> like, if I played them on a DX-7 I could sell it to Windham Hill.
>> On the other hand, I was a 19-year-old little snot at the time.
>
>Playing anything on a DX-7 is pretty lame.

I don't think I can agree with that.

>Are we to judge music by how well it comes off on a DX-7?

I judge music on a 3-dimensional scale: notes, performance, and
intent. The composer (in the classical sense) is only in complete
control of the first, but retains a majority holding in the last
and a contribution to the middle one as far as specifying
instrumentation. Debussy didn't specify a DX-7, so the idea *is*
a bit unfair, but as far as notes alone go... one of the only ways
to assess notes *is to imagine a transcription*.

-Carl

Carl Lumma wrote:

>Are we to judge music by how well it comes off on a DX-7?
> >
>
>I judge music on a 3-dimensional scale: notes, performance, and
>intent. >

At least no one will call Carl one dimensional.

--

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

Jon,

You wrote:
> Yahya,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >Seconded! I may have mentioned before that I'm also partial to Bollywood
> >music. While much of it is overblown, some of it is way up there with
the
> >best of classical Indian music for the skill of the artists in setting a
> >beautiful melody simply. When combined with the power and beauty of a
> >voice like Lata Mangeshkar's, the result is as good as it gets.
>
> Could you recommend a couple of recordings, or maybe a site to do some
> exploration? This is one of those very large musical worlds (and film,
> obviously) that I am at a point of almost complete ignorance. What little
> I've heard has certainly seemed like there must be some very cool stuff,
> but I am overwhelmed.

Please forgive me; the only recordings I have are now decades old, on
reel-to-reel tape (transcribed for me by friends in Malaysia in the early
70s, when I first lived there) and I haven't looked for any since, certainly
not on the net. Tho I did happen across a stall selling Indian CDs in a
market some years ago, and bought one on spec, called Best of '96 - Sabse
Badkar - which was definitely not up to the standard I remembered;
partly, I think, due to the CD being a low-quality pirate copy, despite its
apparently good packaging.

What I would suggest, tho, is to take your musical sensibilities with you
and go visit your nearest Indian grocery (food, spices & video) store. Or
go and watch one or two of the Bollywood films - any of them. There's
some dross, of course, but there is also much beauty and power. If that
is not practical, please bear with me a while until I can the tapes and the
recorder out of storage - it may be in a week or two.

>
> >Hmmm ... don't know Nancarrow - what should I listen to first?
>
> I don't know how you would listen to it 'first', that is a hard one. I'm
> guessing you might know that virtually all of his work was for player
> piano, that he developed his own punching machines to create piano rolls
of
> inhuman complexity, allowing for things that there aren't enough fingers
> (and fingers fast enough) to play. I don't know if there are small
> collections of his recordings, as I until recently only had an old
> double-LP of some of the pieces, but in the last couple of years Wergo
> released a box set of all the player piano music with very deep and
> extensive notes by James Tenney:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/79tav
>
> You can also get a good start on the composer by seeing Kyle Gann's page:
>
> http://www.kylegann.com/index2.html
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

Thanks for this information! I'll look at the links and see if I can find
some
affordable recordings to listen to.

Regards,
Yahya

--
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Aaron,

You wrote:
> > I don't "get" Sibelius. What I've heard of his works simply didn't
> > hold my attention. I guess I could say that his music seems rather
> > obvious. In fact, I'd label it "wallpaper music" - it's impossible to
> > keep one's attention on it, and as it fades in to the background,
> > one finds onself looking around for someone to strike up a REAL
> > conversation with. Of course, I could be entirely wrong!
>
> In my opinion, you are.
>
> Sibelius' true inspiration is nature, in particular the nature of Northern
> Scandanavia. If you are in bliss on a mountain hike, or in the winter
forest,
> you 'get' Sibelius, because he conjures up that non-human world so
> beautifully. It is music by and of solitude. I don't think one can say
that
> any other composer's music is so in tune with the idea of northern
wilderness
> as Sibelius'.

Thank you for the correction.

> Of course, I'm Scandanavian-American, maybe it's genetic! ;) What can I
> say? I agree with Glenn Gould when he says "I couldn't go on living with
> Sibelius' 5th symphony". For me, ditto the 3rd, 4th, 6th......

I guess we can forgive you your prejudices, then :-).

> And my God, have you ever heard 'Tapiola'? I think that is the most
stunning
> piece of music ever written in terms of sheer imagination of the
sound-world.

Then I must certainly find a copy and listen to it.

> So different than anything trendy that was going on elsewhere in Europe.
> That's what I love about Sibelius: he stands alone, outside of any
'school'.
> For starters, listern to Karajan (not someone I like in general, but he
> *really* understands Sibelius very well) conduct Tapiola, on of the 1960's
> recordings. Karajan so loved Sibelius that he insisted on conducting the
4th
> at his inaugural at a time when the German public was lukewarm at best
> towards his music. (It wasn't continental 'German' enough for them like
the
> dazzle of Richard Strauss, I suppose)
>
> I hope you can really start listening with the largest mind and heart
> possible, and not skip over or dismiss the music of this true master.

I promise to do my very best!

> Best,
> Aaron.

Likewise,
Yahya

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no version of the 4th i can find comes close to this.

a funny thing about the score. In Particular the first movement.
every line or sustained sound in the entire movement starts and ends on the upbeat.
being so heavy it could have been notated on the down beat as it is almost heard this way.
I assume he wanted to keep everything floating so to speak. from this he is quite successful

>
>
> >
>>For starters, listern to Karajan (not someone I like in general, but he
>>*really* understands Sibelius very well) conduct Tapiola, on of the 1960's
>>recordings. Karajan so loved Sibelius that he insisted on conducting the
>> >>
>4th
> >
>
> >
>>Best,
>>Aaron.
>> >>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

On Monday 26 September 2005 10:08 am, Kraig Grady wrote:
> no version of the 4th i can find comes close to this.
>
> a funny thing about the score. In Particular the first movement.
> every line or sustained sound in the entire movement starts and ends on
> the upbeat.
> being so heavy it could have been notated on the down beat as it is
> almost heard this way.
> I assume he wanted to keep everything floating so to speak. from this
> he is quite successful

That's a cool observation...did you notice that, or was it pointed out to you?

> >>For starters, listern to Karajan (not someone I like in general, but he
> >>*really* understands Sibelius very well) conduct Tapiola, on of the
> >> 1960's recordings. Karajan so loved Sibelius that he insisted on
> >> conducting the 4th
> >
> >>Best,
> >>Aaron.
>

i actually noticed that as somehow it is the type of things i pick up on. Notation is a funny thing and how it is used.
Some of feldman pieces could be notated way easier. i assume he wanted to make the player think in a certain way.

Shostakovitch often does these weird tricks of changing meters in a way that is quite divorced from the way you hear it. making it easier on the player in a way while the audience grabbles for the downbeat and or the meter. or things like cymbal crashes on the second beat after a strong down beat, to almost give the feeling to tripping .
Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:

>
>
>That's a cool observation...did you notice that, or was it pointed out to you?
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Just curious... Is there any place on-line to sample some Nancarrow MP3s?

Rick

Jon Szanto wrote:

> Could you recommend a couple of recordings, or maybe a site to do some > exploration? This is one of those very large musical worlds (and film, > obviously) that I am at a point of almost complete ignorance. What little > I've heard has certainly seemed like there must be some very cool stuff, > but I am overwhelmed.

Try The Rough Guide to Bollywood. It's part of the Rough Guide series, and so should be easy to find. There's also a very small range of Lata Mangeshkar compliations, so you can't really go wrong with them.

Graham

Rick,

{you wrote...}
>Just curious... Is there any place on-line to sample some Nancarrow MP3s?

Not well-labeled, and in RealAudio, but a bunch here:
http://tinyurl.com/e3ucr

There is also this radio program that has a number of his pieces included in the spoken script:
http://tinyurl.com/8438v

Its possible some more searching will come up with actual mp3 files, but thats a start.

Cheers,
Jon

>Just curious... Is there any place on-line to sample some Nancarrow MP3s?

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/199710/29_bakera_nancarrow/

-Carl

>Just curious... Is there any place on-line to sample some Nancarrow MP3s?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003F9B/

-Carl

> Shostakovitch often does these weird tricks of changing meters in a way
> that is quite divorced from the way you hear it.

Not to mention Stravinsky...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

somehow my biggest collection of records of single artist was tied between igor and miles
i even have a one sided record of 'the flood' by the former

Chris Bryan wrote:

>
>
>Not to mention Stravinsky...
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

What instrument do you use to play along with Miles, Kraig? Is it
microtonal?

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:
> exactly.
> if you haven't played to this stuff you have missed allot . in fact
i
> don't know how one can listen to it and NOT want to play along!
>
> Jon Szanto wrote:
>
> >P,
> >
> >{you wrote...}
> >
> >
> >>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady
<kraiggrady@a...>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Miles is my favorite Music Minus 1
> >>>
> >>>
> >>What does that mean?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Could it be that Miles was so spare in his solos that it is almost
like
> >playing along with a band that has the solo gone (like in
the "Music Minus
> >1" recordings)?
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Jon
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

i guess we should say 'did' play along with as i haven't done so in quite a while.
i admit using my centaur tuning on a reed organ being the closest i had to a 12 ET tuning in my house. the band never seem too stuck in 12 ET to cause much problem.
Maybe some bass parts in Bb might raise a hair.

as one can often get reeds easier than organs , that organ is now my slendro organ , having 5 tones in common with it.
and then when i had another one it ended up in a metameantoone, which i actually don't like as much as centaur, but haven't switched this back nor brought the instrument upstairs, due to lack of room.

i already got rid of any eating table, most chairs, have shelves that go to the ceiling to hold books,scores,records,cds so can only have some much accessable at a time. a small TV that only plays Young's DVD of the well tuned piano
i think i got all out of miles i am going to get for a while

Paul Erlich wrote:

>What instrument do you use to play along with Miles, Kraig? Is it >microtonal?
>
>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
> >
>>exactly.
>>if you haven't played to this stuff you have missed allot . in fact >> >>
>i > >
>>don't know how one can listen to it and NOT want to play along!
>>
>>Jon Szanto wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>>P,
>>>
>>>{you wrote...}
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>>>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady >>>> >>>>
><kraiggrady@a...>
> >
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>>>Miles is my favorite Music Minus 1
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>What does that mean?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>Could it be that Miles was so spare in his solos that it is almost >>> >>>
>like > >
>>>playing along with a band that has the solo gone (like in >>> >>>
>the "Music Minus > >
>>>1" recordings)?
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>Jon >>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>-- >>Kraig Grady
>>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
>>The Wandering Medicine Show
>>KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>> >>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> As for Davis, it just
> sounds like bad lounge music to me.

Bitches Brew? Live-Evil? Or . . . ?

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> >BTW, I read Miles' biography, and he was a racist prick. I'll grant
his
> >importance, but what an asshole.
>
> One of my best friends read that and liked it. Go figure.

It's a great book, regardless of whether you're uncomfortable with a
little venting against a *lot* of racism. Even well into his career,
Miles' blackness still meant he was a punching bag for white police
officers, for one thing.

> I just
> think his music wasn't very good.

Come back to it in 10 years.

And -- looks like you said you'd never heard Live-Evil? So what exactly
are you basing this on?

> I just think his music wasn't very good.

Sounds to me like you just haven't dropped enough acid.
;-)

Rick

>> As for Davis, it just
>> sounds like bad lounge music to me.
>
>Bitches Brew? Live-Evil? Or . . . ?

Bitches Brew. I need to get Live-Evil.

-Carl

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> >> As for Davis, it just
> >> sounds like bad lounge music to me.
> >
> >Bitches Brew? Live-Evil? Or . . . ?
>
> Bitches Brew. I need to get Live-Evil.
>
> -Carl

Wow! No offense -- just curious: Which part of Bitches Brew
sounds "loungy" to you? You're certainly hearing something I'm not, and
I want to hear it too! To my ears, Bitches Brew explores some very
difficult emotions, ones that we tend to avoid in our
daily, "civilized" lives, and are far too disturbing for us to "lounge"
to. Timbrally, rhythmically, harmonically, even melodically. There's no
conventional common-practice tonality or blues or anything even
remotely familiar on there that I can imagine relaxing to. What am I
missing?

>> >> As for Davis, it just sounds like bad lounge music to me.
>> >
>> >Bitches Brew? Live-Evil? Or . . . ?
>>
>> Bitches Brew. I need to get Live-Evil.
>>
>> -Carl
>
>Wow! No offense -- just curious: Which part of Bitches Brew
>sounds "loungy" to you? You're certainly hearing something I'm not,
>and I want to hear it too! To my ears, Bitches Brew explores some
>very difficult emotions, ones that we tend to avoid in our daily,
>"civilized" lives, and are far too disturbing for us to "lounge"
>to. Timbrally, rhythmically, harmonically, even melodically.
>There's no conventional common-practice tonality or blues or
>anything even remotely familiar on there that I can imagine
>relaxing to. What am I missing?

I need to listen to this again and get back to you.

-Carl

The strongest emotion I get from BB, specifically Pharao's Dance, is
spookyness. Not in a John Williams "you are scared" way but more of a
creeping unease, something is wrong but you don't quite know what, and
until you figure out what you're completely vulnerable to it.

Now, the first time I heard Pharao's Dance, my immediate impression
was that it sounded like elevator music. It seemed thin, and the
rhodes was the most flaccid sounding instrument I had ever heard. But
I came back to it in a different mood months later, and it felt like a
different record. The Rhodes now seemed eerie and alien, the throbbing
bass clarinet so dark, and the call-and-responce patterns felt like
the built on eachother in amazing ways.

It was spooky in much the same way as "On a Japanese Theme" by Harry
Partch (Delusions of the Fury), and it made me wonder if there was any
way to make an 11 limit Rhodes. As far as I know, the forks are too
bulky to file down as you would a reed, but I've seen tuning forks
with dampers on them to change the pitch.

--
~Tristan Parker
http://www.myspace.com/rozencrantz
"Western music is fast because it's out of tune"
-- Terry Riley

I do think the forks are adjustable on a fender Rhodes and like reeds think you can shift them up or down a semitone in range.
always easier to go down though

Rozencrantz the Sane wrote:

>The strongest emotion I get from BB, specifically Pharao's Dance, is
>spookyness. Not in a John Williams "you are scared" way but more of a
>creeping unease, something is wrong but you don't quite know what, and
>until you figure out what you're completely vulnerable to it.
>
>Now, the first time I heard Pharao's Dance, my immediate impression
>was that it sounded like elevator music. It seemed thin, and the
>rhodes was the most flaccid sounding instrument I had ever heard. But
>I came back to it in a different mood months later, and it felt like a
>different record. The Rhodes now seemed eerie and alien, the throbbing
>bass clarinet so dark, and the call-and-responce patterns felt like
>the built on eachother in amazing ways.
>
>It was spooky in much the same way as "On a Japanese Theme" by Harry
>Partch (Delusions of the Fury), and it made me wonder if there was any
>way to make an 11 limit Rhodes. As far as I know, the forks are too
>bulky to file down as you would a reed, but I've seen tuning forks
>with dampers on them to change the pitch.
>
>--
>~Tristan Parker
>http://www.myspace.com/rozencrantz
>"Western music is fast because it's out of tune"
>-- Terry Riley
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >> >> As for Davis, it just sounds like bad lounge music to me.
> >> >
> >> >Bitches Brew? Live-Evil? Or . . . ?
> >>
> >> Bitches Brew. I need to get Live-Evil.
> >>
> >> -Carl
> >
> >Wow! No offense -- just curious: Which part of Bitches Brew
> >sounds "loungy" to you? You're certainly hearing something I'm not,
> >and I want to hear it too! To my ears, Bitches Brew explores some
> >very difficult emotions, ones that we tend to avoid in our daily,
> >"civilized" lives, and are far too disturbing for us to "lounge"
> >to. Timbrally, rhythmically, harmonically, even melodically.
> >There's no conventional common-practice tonality or blues or
> >anything even remotely familiar on there that I can imagine
> >relaxing to. What am I missing?
>
> I need to listen to this again and get back to you.

I'd appreciate that -- not because I want to prove you wrong or
debate you, but because we do share a lot of musical tastes in common
and you're my friend, so your musical experiences mean a lot to me.

Personally, I get the sense that Bitches Brew while being one of
Miles' first electric albums, was one of the last of his albums that
was truly revolutionary (or ahead of its time) in terms of harmony,
form, and all that -- in a way that few, if any, of his successors
have even touched. But what do I know? I still have a much easier
time listening to what he was doing in 1959 or even 1975.

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:

> I do think the forks are adjustable on a fender Rhodes

That's correct -- just as a Rhodes needs to be periodically tuned for
normal use, so it can be "detuned" to a custom tuning system.

If I wanted to be pedantic, I'd mention that they're tines, not forks.

Paul Erlich wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> >wrote:
>
> >
>>I do think the forks are adjustable on a fender Rhodes
>> >>
>
>That's correct -- just as a Rhodes needs to be periodically tuned for >normal use, so it can be "detuned" to a custom tuning system.
>
>If I wanted to be pedantic, I'd mention that they're tines, not forks.
>
Tines it is.

When I retuned mine a few years ago, I had to start over after using A=1/1
and tune it to Ab=1/1 because at one point the spring slid off the tine.

I never play it anymore, it probably needs to be tuned. Just didn't really work well,
but I don't know what else to tune it to.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

>> >> Bitches Brew. I need to get Live-Evil.
>> >
>> >Wow! No offense -- just curious: Which part of Bitches Brew
>> >sounds "loungy" to you? You're certainly hearing something I'm not,
>> >and I want to hear it too! To my ears, Bitches Brew explores some
>> >very difficult emotions, ones that we tend to avoid in our daily,
>> >"civilized" lives, and are far too disturbing for us to "lounge"
>> >to. Timbrally, rhythmically, harmonically, even melodically.
>> >There's no conventional common-practice tonality or blues or
>> >anything even remotely familiar on there that I can imagine
>> >relaxing to. What am I missing?
>>
>> I need to listen to this again and get back to you.
>
>I'd appreciate that -- not because I want to prove you wrong or
>debate you, but because we do share a lot of musical tastes in common
>and you're my friend, so your musical experiences mean a lot to me.
>
>Personally, I get the sense that Bitches Brew while being one of
>Miles' first electric albums, was one of the last of his albums that
>was truly revolutionary (or ahead of its time) in terms of harmony,
>form, and all that -- in a way that few, if any, of his successors
>have even touched. But what do I know? I still have a much easier
>time listening to what he was doing in 1959 or even 1975.

I will do that. I listened to BB in high school once or twice
and shelved it, then heard it from my coworker's office at Keyboard,
along with some other Miles, last year.

I'm headed to Chicago for the weekend; maybe I can listen on
the plane. Er, no, that never works with the headphones I have.
I'll listen when I get back.

Of course, you are talking to someone who doesn't care for
Debussy. :0

-Carl