Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic mapping into harmonic sounds...

Hi All,

I've been working on mapping procedures to take the
partials (overtones) from a sound (the source) and move them
somewhere else (the destination).
The application is to create sounds (currently planning
on using Kontakt) that have spectra specially designed
for particular tunings.

As I've been playing with the algorithms, I have been
"trying them out" on complete mixes and have some
interesting sounding results... for these two
pieces, the destination was set as all integer multiples
of 65 Hz. So all of the "notes" are squished down to
one big harmonic sound. They are at:

http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/SlowTick65.mp3

and

http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/SlowExplode65.mp3

Comments/thoughts/questions welcome...

--Bill Sethares

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

It sounds like you are directing source sounds that are high in noise with a result that mistakenly might at first be heard as what happens when a filter is resonating at particular spots.
One application i could see of what you are going for would be that one could takes something high in noise and direct it toward a variety of tonal gambit, hence each time the same thing would be heard differently.
Even tough one is extracting these focus pitches out of the original sound source, i am not sure how well one will perceive it as such without knowing.
but it is not unusual to tell the audience the process before one presents it these days. after the first gap, it definitely gets close to some vocal sounds. i thought for sure it said "peace now" at one point but some how could quite make out past that point..
i know that the vocoder in Logic 7 has a device that stretches and compresses the harmonic spectrum which might or might not resemble the process you are doing.
that i got voice out of what you are doing, also makes me think that this type of mechanism happens with voice?

I take it this is the type of feedback you were wanting on this?

now i go download second

Bill Sethares wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>I've been working on mapping procedures to take the
>partials (overtones) from a sound (the source) and move them
>somewhere else (the destination).
>The application is to create sounds (currently planning
>on using Kontakt) that have spectra specially designed >for particular tunings.
>
>As I've been playing with the algorithms, I have been
>"trying them out" on complete mixes and have some >interesting sounding results... for these two >pieces, the destination was set as all integer multiples
>of 65 Hz. So all of the "notes" are squished down to
>one big harmonic sound. They are at:
>
>http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/SlowTick65.mp3
>
>and
>
>http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/SlowExplode65.mp3
>
>Comments/thoughts/questions welcome...
>
>--Bill Sethares
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

I kind of like the more aggressive use of say the harmonic series here. It sounds like what de Sade might have done with it, with what sounds so much like whipping going on.

"But the just intonationalist is dead"
"Continue with the lashes Mr. Christian"

the sounds that happen when you are resting are also quite interesting also BTW and could hold it own i think

Bill Sethares wrote:

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

Jon Szanto wrote, in reply to Bill Sethares:
> Hey Bill,
>
> {you wrote...}
> >So all of the "notes" are squished down to one big harmonic sound. They
> >are at:
> >
> >http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/SlowTick65.mp3
> >
> >and
> >
> >http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/SlowExplode65.mp3
> >
> >Comments/thoughts/questions welcome...
>
> I can't readily imagine how this expands into more wide-spread
> compositions. But even while I know your particular realm of writing, the
> static nature of the "one big harmonic sound" that you have going in those
> two examples really begs for an ambient-style setting. To my ears, really
> smooth transitions, overlapping textures, along those lines. Just a
thought...

Bill,

Here's an alternative approach - diametrically opposed to Jon's "ambient"
idea - punching very rhythmical "holes" in a static "wall of sound" chord
comprising all of a defined set of partials. The idea is to have a
continuing
sound rich enough to defy easy analysis into particular pitches; and from
this sound, to periodically subtract one or more of the partials. This is
the
opposite of the usual compositional procedure, whereby we add sounds to
silence. It's a negative, rather than a positive composition. In a wall of
sound rich enough, I suspect it may take quite a bit of practice to even
begin hearing a "negative melody" or "anti-melody" - and even more to hear
"anti-harmonies".

Regards,
Yahya

--
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🔗Bill Sethares <sethares@...>

Thanks to Jon and Kraig and Yahya (among others)
who replied with thoughts about the mappings to 65 Hz...
Jon wrote:
> I can't readily imagine how this expands into more wide-spread
> compositions. But even while I know your particular realm of
writing, the
> static nature of the "one big harmonic sound" that you have going in
those
> two examples really begs for an ambient-style setting. To my ears,
really
> smooth transitions, overlapping textures, along those lines. Just a
thought...

while Yahya suggested the oppposite:

> punching very rhythmical "holes" in a static "wall of sound" chord
> comprising all of a defined set of partials. The idea is to have a
> continuing sound rich enough to defy easy analysis into
> particular pitches; and from this sound, to periodically
> subtract one or more of the partials.

leading towards a "negative melody" or "anti-melody."

Nice ideas, both, and both worth trying out. Stay tuned...

Kraig responded more technically:

> i know that the vocoder in Logic 7 has a device that stretches and
> compresses the harmonic spectrum which might or might not resemble the
> process you are doing.

I don't use Logic, but am guessing that this must be a channel
vocoder (as opposed to a phase vocoder)? You can tell the difference
because the channel vocoder uses two sounds (the carrier and
the modulator) and basically multiplies their spectra, meaning
that the partials common to the two sounds are emphasized while the
partials that are different are attenuated. So, in the cricket
piece (very nice, BTW) you must have used a very rich sound
in conjunction with a harmonic sound -- what is in common is
the harmonic sound shaped by the rich one.

This is farily different from the mappings I'm working with.
To see the difference, consider two examples...
(1) the channel vocoder with:
(a) a harmonic sound consisting of all
partials of 65 Hz is the carrier
(b) some rich modulator

(2) The spectral mapping with
(a) a destination of all partials of 65 Hz
(b) the same rich modulator (now called the source)

The output of (1) is all the elements of the rich sound
that happen to lie on the 65 Hz grid... this is why Kraig's
cricket piece is composed noticeably of a sum of sinusoids
(I'm guessing, of course, so please correct me if I'm wrong about
any of this).

The output of (2) can be quite rich even if the modulator/source
contains nothing in the 65 Hz lattice, because the partials
are mapped to the nearest location... for example a partial
at 75 Hz might be mapped downwards to the nearby 65
Hz while a partial at 125 Hz might be mapped upwards
to the nearby 130 Hz destination.

Here are a couple of other examples, this time using something
familiar as the modulator/source: Joplin's maple leaf rag
(as performed by Jelly Roll Morton). In the first, all
the partials are moved (as before) to multiples of 65 Hz.
The piece is also slowed down significantly. Can you
still hear the Maple leaf rag in there?

http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/SlowMaple65.mp3

In the second version, I mapped all the partials to
n-tet for n=2, 3, 5, and 7. What you hear as "chord changes"
is the changing between the various tets. Again, the
rag is still in there somewhere. This one is at:

http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/MapleManytet.mp3

Just to fess up -- Kraig wrote:

> after the first gap, it definitely gets close to
> some vocal sounds. i thought for sure it said "peace now" at one point
> but some how could quite make out past that point..

this actually began as a piece with vocals (though of course
you couldn't have known that). What it is "actually" saying
is "tick tock the grandfathers clock at grandmas."

--Bill Sethares

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@...>

Bill,

{you wrote...}
>Nice ideas, both, and both worth trying out. Stay tuned...

Always.

>Here are a couple of other examples...

You know something, you are really weird. I like that in a person.

>In the second version

My word, that one is Really Bizarre! What an extraordinary sound world!! You know what might be fun, in some piece that had some kind of programmatic bent to it, would be to have the original recording in one track of a mixer, and this second kind in another, and do some slow cross-fades betwixt the two, as the real world slowly slides into an alternate universe.

>What it is "actually" saying is "tick tock the grandfathers clock at >grandmas."

If I get around to it in late summer, I'm transferring a lot of my early tape and other compositions from 4-track reel-to-reel into digital and doing new mixes. One of the pieces WAY pre-dated ambient: it was a soundtrack I built, played in a quad setup in the auditorium as people entered before a concert. I recorded for about an hour at a clock shop that had dozens of big grandfather clocks, and I set up multiple recorders. I did four different tracks, and this sound world of ticking and occasional chimes surrounded the listener. As I recall, it was awfully cool.

But it could have been the drugs...

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Hi Bill!
Thanks for the explanation of the vocorder and how it works. i assumed there was a difference, but didn't know what it was and it always help to know exactly what is going on.
i can't say i hear the rag in the first one, but the second one reminds a bit of the stretching and compressing i have heard with short ways that is just slightly out of tune.
Although here it is easy to hear that there is some sort of either or choices being made.
In Example how some of the different notes in the original get compressed into unisons. Having recordings of music with limited palettes by various people on the globe, it makes me think how thing likewise get compressed into their own scales.
Not that more notes are always better and often it is remarkable how much expression can be done by a few.

Bill Sethares wrote:

> Kraig responded more technically:
>
> >
>>i know that the vocoder in Logic 7 has a device that stretches and
>>compresses the harmonic spectrum which might or might not resemble the
>>process you are doing.
>> >>
>
>I don't use Logic, but am guessing that this must be a channel
>vocoder (as opposed to a phase vocoder)? You can tell the difference
>because the channel vocoder uses two sounds (the carrier and >the modulator) and basically multiplies their spectra, meaning
>that the partials common to the two sounds are emphasized while the
>partials that are different are attenuated. So, in the cricket >piece (very nice, BTW) you must have used a very rich sound
>in conjunction with a harmonic sound -- what is in common is
>the harmonic sound shaped by the rich one.
>
>This is farily different from the mappings I'm working with.
>To see the difference, consider two examples... >(1) the channel vocoder with:
> (a) a harmonic sound consisting of all
> partials of 65 Hz is the carrier
> (b) some rich modulator
>
>(2) The spectral mapping with
> (a) a destination of all partials of 65 Hz
> (b) the same rich modulator (now called the source)
>
>The output of (1) is all the elements of the rich sound
>that happen to lie on the 65 Hz grid... this is why Kraig's
>cricket piece is composed noticeably of a sum of sinusoids >(I'm guessing, of course, so please correct me if I'm wrong about >any of this). >
>The output of (2) can be quite rich even if the modulator/source
>contains nothing in the 65 Hz lattice, because the partials
>are mapped to the nearest location... for example a partial
>at 75 Hz might be mapped downwards to the nearby 65 >Hz while a partial at 125 Hz might be mapped upwards >to the nearby 130 Hz destination.
>
>Here are a couple of other examples, this time using something
>familiar as the modulator/source: Joplin's maple leaf rag
>(as performed by Jelly Roll Morton). In the first, all
>the partials are moved (as before) to multiples of 65 Hz.
>The piece is also slowed down significantly. Can you >still hear the Maple leaf rag in there? >
>http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/SlowMaple65.mp3
>
>In the second version, I mapped all the partials to
>n-tet for n=2, 3, 5, and 7. What you hear as "chord changes"
>is the changing between the various tets. Again, the >rag is still in there somewhere. This one is at:
>
>http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/MapleManytet.mp3
>
>Just to fess up -- Kraig wrote:
>
> >
>>after the first gap, it definitely gets close to
>>some vocal sounds. i thought for sure it said "peace now" at one point
>>but some how could quite make out past that point..
>> >>
>
>this actually began as a piece with vocals (though of course
>you couldn't have known that). What it is "actually" saying
>is "tick tock the grandfathers clock at grandmas."
>
>--Bill Sethares
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Sethares"
<sethares@e...> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I've been working on mapping procedures to take the
> partials (overtones) from a sound (the source) and move them
> somewhere else (the destination).
> The application is to create sounds (currently planning
> on using Kontakt) that have spectra specially designed
> for particular tunings.
>
> As I've been playing with the algorithms, I have been
> "trying them out" on complete mixes and have some
> interesting sounding results... for these two
> pieces, the destination was set as all integer multiples
> of 65 Hz. So all of the "notes" are squished down to
> one big harmonic sound. They are at:
>
> http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/SlowTick65.mp3

The first half of this reminds me very much of the result of
singing/playing through a 15ms delay effect with the feedback turned
way up. Have you ever tried that?

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Sethares"
> Here are a couple of other examples, this time using something
> familiar as the modulator/source: Joplin's maple leaf rag
> (as performed by Jelly Roll Morton). In the first, all
> the partials are moved (as before) to multiples of 65 Hz.
> The piece is also slowed down significantly. Can you
> still hear the Maple leaf rag in there?
>
> http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/SlowMaple65.mp3

Scary!

> Just to fess up -- Kraig wrote:
>
> > after the first gap, it definitely gets close to
> > some vocal sounds. i thought for sure it said "peace now" at one
point
> > but some how could quite make out past that point..
>
> this actually began as a piece with vocals (though of course
> you couldn't have known that).

Why not? I actually would have been *shocked* if that one *didn't*
come from a recording of human vocals.

🔗George Henry <cruithnelaluna@...>

Hello Bill & all,

I'm listening to the mutations of Joplin at the moment. I like both
of them, particularly the first one.

The era of electronics conferred new dimensions of possibilities on
the "thema and variatons" idea. The theme can be an entire piece of
music, whether traditional or newly-composed and from any source -
or for that matter any source of found or generated sound. The
variations can be various electronic manipulations of the course
sounds. I am imagining the first part of a straight rendition of
Maple Leaf Rag followed by a series of Bill's "experiments" on it,
ending up with the original again.

Here is another idea for those of you who, unlike me, are actually
making micro music. This is inspired by Bill's 'many tet' example.
Take some equal temperaments, say 12-, 13-, 15-, 17- and 19-tone for
example, and combine them. Play with this set of pitches in a way
that seems fun to you, until you discover some favorite
simultaneities and sequences. Then derive a scale featuring the
subset of tones that underlie your favorite passages and use those
as well as your favorite segments to create a fully-realized
composition. (Possibly some of you have done this already.)

This is all manifestly so much fun that I wish I could play too -
maybe someday; meanwhile, thanks for letting me watch and listen to
you all working and playing.

Regards,
George

🔗Bill Sethares <sethares@...>

Thanks for the comments and thoughts about the recent
pieces.

Kraig wrote:

> i can't say i hear the rag in the first one, but the second one reminds
a bit of the stretching and compressing i have heard with short ways
that is just slightly out of tune...
In Example how some of the different notes in the original get
compressed into unisons.

Indeed -- there are choices that must be made when doing such mappings
-- for instance, if two source partials want to be mapped to
the same destination frequency then you need to decide whether
to do one, the other, or to somehow combine them.
In most of the experimentation so far, I have just used the
simple rule: map the largest (in amplitude) and drop the
smaller one.

Kraig continued:

>I kind of like the more aggressive use of say the harmonic series here.
It sounds like what de Sade might have done with it, with what sounds so
much like whipping going on.

Thanks -- I like the image of the Marquis de Sound
perverting the harmonic series -- though I suppose this
should be reserved for those that do violate the
harmonic series!

Paul wrote about SlowTick65:

> I actually would have been *shocked* if that one *didn't*
come from a recording of human vocals.

I'm not too surprised because parts of it do retain the
vocal qualities... the reason I was responding was because
Kraig thought he heard the voice say "peace now" where it was
saying "tick tock"! BTW -- have you heard Diana Deutch's
latest illusions? One channel contains a voice repeating
some phrase. The other channel contains the same phrase
but with a variety of (short) time shifts. What is fascinating
is that when you listen to it you can hear many many different
words and phrases being spoken, even though they are not
"actually" present. Perhaps Kraig's "peace now" is of this same
ilk...

Geroge wrote:

> I'm listening to the mutations of Joplin at the moment. I like both
of them, particularly the first one.

Thanks, and yes, this is a fun kind of experiment where you
do variations on a theme... some become unrecognizable as
the sounds get mapped far from their source while others
are more variations in sound qualities.

--Bill Sethares

🔗Bill Sethares <sethares@...>

A few days ago, Paul wrote:

> The first half of this reminds me very much of the result of
singing/playing through a 15ms delay effect with the feedback turned
way up. Have you ever tried that?

Sure thing... in fact here are a pair of pieces. The first

http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/Intearappone.mp3

is a kind of sine-wavy thing where the frequencies
wiggle all around in slow motion. I then started playing
with a delay unit and redid Intearappone

http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/Delayed_Intearappone.mp3

which is basically the same piece but with a lot of time-
based (delay) processing adding in some rhythmic bubbles...

--Bill Sethares

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Sethares"
<sethares@e...> wrote:

> here are a pair of pieces. The first
>
> http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/Intearappone.mp3
>
> is a kind of sine-wavy thing where the frequencies
> wiggle all around in slow motion.

Sounds very ring-modulated and is really fascinating. Made me think
of the new planet:

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0509/09solarssytem/

> I then started playing
> with a delay unit and redid Intearappone
>
> http://www.cae.wisc.edu/~sethares/Delayed_Intearappone.mp3
>
> which is basically the same piece but with a lot of time-
> based (delay) processing adding in some rhythmic bubbles...

Cool! Now write the next section, in which we suddenly encounter the
ferocious alien :)