Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup makemicromusic 53-equal in CSound

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K" <kukulaj@y...> wrote:
> I've been exploring algorithmic/fractal generation of "music" in
> 53-equal tuning. I've starting using CSound to get from note sequences
> to .wav files. Here's an example that I think came out OK:
>
> http://www.artsong.org/cnf/player.asp?ID=693

That was prety good. It appears you're doing basically the same thing
I'm trying to do but differently.

I'm presently trying to get CsoundAV going along with Scala textual
output, using of course the MIDI-loop back program. I can manage the
Csound but getting all the programs working together is a bit of a
challenge. I'll probably figure it out this week end or next.

Interesting to see (since I'm new here) there's other Csounders.

JayTee

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

Jim K <kukulaj@...> wrote:

> I've been exploring algorithmic/fractal generation of "music" in
> 53-equal tuning. I've starting using CSound to get from note sequences
> to .wav files. Here's an example that I think came out OK:
>
> http://www.artsong.org/cnf/player.asp?ID=693
>

Hi Jim,

Added to my download list in GetRight! Hope to listen to
it later today.

What software or language are you using to program your
algorithms or fractals in?

Regards,
Yahya

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🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

jaytee110180 wrote:
> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K" <kukulaj@y...> wrote:
> > I've been exploring algorithmic/fractal generation of "music" in
> > 53-equal tuning. I've starting using CSound to get from note sequences
> > to .wav files. Here's an example that I think came out OK:
> >
> > http://www.artsong.org/cnf/player.asp?ID=693
>
> That was prety good. It appears you're doing basically the same thing
> I'm trying to do but differently.
>
> I'm presently trying to get CsoundAV going along with Scala textual
> output, using of course the MIDI-loop back program. I can manage the
> Csound but getting all the programs working together is a bit of a
> challenge. I'll probably figure it out this week end or next.
>
> Interesting to see (since I'm new here) there's other Csounders.
>
> JayTee

Welcome, JayTee!

There's quite a lot of real musos here, too! :-) Which means
we quite often get some new music to listen to - a great plus,
in my opinion (be it never so humble).

Regards,
Yahya

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🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...>
wrote:
> What software or language are you using to program your
> algorithms or fractals in?

I just have a simple C program - a few hundred lines of code, no fancy
subroutine libraries - that spits out a text file that I then feed as
a score file into CSound. My CSound orchestra is extremely simple -
just one instrument that plays in 53-equal. With these two inputs,
CSound spits out a .wav file.

My approach to generating the note sequence is based on statistical
mechanics. It's pretty easy to set up a simulation of a system with a
phase transition - the classical simplest model is called an Ising
model, from the 1920's I think.

So I build a big matrix of all the possible notes that could be
played. I then have a cost function that wants notes close in time to
be close in pitch. The fun part is in defining what it means to be
close in time and what it means to be close in pitch! Of course I
define perfect fifths, major thirds, etc. to be close in pitch. Close
in time has a similar folded structure - I am putting a toroidal
structure on time to force a roughly repetitive note sequence.

Then there's an "annealing schedule" on top of all this. The program
randomly teaks the note sequence and checks if the cost goes up or
down as a result. In the beginning the choice is made quite randomly.
Then gradually the weighting is changed so that moves are preferred
that decrease the cost.

It's well known (in theoretical physics) that a system like this will
exhibit fractal fluctuations in the vicinity of its phase transition.
So I stop the annealing when I see the signs of the phase transition.

I haven't coded the thing very efficiently. It's several hours of cpu
time to sift down to the sequence in this file.

That's probably more than you wanted to know! Is this anything at all
like what you're experimenting with, JayTee?

Jim

🔗Chris Bryan <melandchris@...>

🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

that is terrific and quite a work out for the ear.
not only in the sense of the daring harmonizations, but also in the ways different lines move back and forth into the foreground. resulting from voices crossing
it is relentless in it perpetual movement even though it shifts the polyrhythmns in unexpected ways at points to keep you guessing.
leaves lots of room for catching things on repeated listenings
.

Jim K wrote:

>Another experiment similar to the others I've posted recently... I
>like to think I'm slowly finding some better tweaks!
>
>http://www.artsong.org/cnf/player.asp?ID=695
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗jack smiley <jacksmiley@...>

i'm not really qualified to remark on the tuning aspect but i like this piece, especially the rhythmic tug & pull.

jack smiley

On Aug 19, 2005, at 3:33 AM, Jim K wrote:

> Another experiment similar to the others I've posted recently... I
> like to think I'm slowly finding some better tweaks!
>
> http://www.artsong.org/cnf/player.asp?ID=695
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________

"unlike those who don't realize
we are here on the verge
of perishing,
those who do:
their quarrels are stilled."
-- dhammapada
________________________

🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, jack smiley <jacksmiley@w...>
wrote:
> the rhythmic tug & pull.

I'm struggling with the rhythmic aspect. How much structure should I
impose, how much should I allow to emerge from the algorithm? (My code
of course must call the random number generator maybe 5 or 10 million
times in generating this, so it's hardly some rigid structure, though
that is probably obvious!)

Anyway here is another experiment, 7.6 MB and almost 11 minutes long.

http://www.artsong.org/cnf/player.asp?ID=696

BTW somebody asked about source code. It doesn't seem like so much fun
to post a snapshot. I would love to inspire anybody to try something
similar, but to post the code would encourage somebody to get stuck in
the same little ditch that I'm stuck in. What I really want to do is
to demonstrate a fresh beautiful new landscape - and then folks much
more competent than I ought to be able to go leaping about picking
berries and building log cabins and just what else I would love to
see. I am very happy to guide anybody through the passes and fords to
get over into this valley, but I am quite sure that my precise
footsteps will not be the best way for anybody else to get here.

It's easy to get some basic code running to do this kind of thing.
Generating something that actually sounds half decent, that takes some
tweaking. But you have to understand all the gory details to have a
sense of where/how to tweak. If you write the code yourself, you'll be
fully prepared to tweak!

Jim

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

things this size i can only load up by clicking on it and going to bed, and sometimes it is there in the morning:)
bu

Jim K wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, jack smiley <jacksmiley@w...>
>wrote:
> >
>>the rhythmic tug & pull.
>> >>
>
>I'm struggling with the rhythmic aspect. How much structure should I
>impose, how much should I allow to emerge from the algorithm? (My code
>of course must call the random number generator maybe 5 or 10 million
>times in generating this, so it's hardly some rigid structure, though
>that is probably obvious!)
>
>Anyway here is another experiment, 7.6 MB and almost 11 minutes long.
>
>http://www.artsong.org/cnf/player.asp?ID=696
>
>BTW somebody asked about source code. It doesn't seem like so much fun
>to post a snapshot. I would love to inspire anybody to try something
>similar, but to post the code would encourage somebody to get stuck in
>the same little ditch that I'm stuck in. What I really want to do is
>to demonstrate a fresh beautiful new landscape - and then folks much
>more competent than I ought to be able to go leaping about picking
>berries and building log cabins and just what else I would love to
>see. I am very happy to guide anybody through the passes and fords to
>get over into this valley, but I am quite sure that my precise
>footsteps will not be the best way for anybody else to get here. >
>It's easy to get some basic code running to do this kind of thing.
>Generating something that actually sounds half decent, that takes some
>tweaking. But you have to understand all the gory details to have a
>sense of where/how to tweak. If you write the code yourself, you'll be
>fully prepared to tweak!
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

http://www.artsong.org/cnf/player.asp?ID=698

Here is an attempt at a totally different rhythmic structure than my
earlier experiments. Unfortunately I only saw immediately how to use a
single voice. Needs more thinking.

What I am really trying to do is to see how far I can go in just
letting structure emerge, how little I have to impose. It struck me:
this is a little bit like creationism versus evolution. I am not a
particular fan of creationism or intelligent design as a theory of the
origin of species. But still: wouldn't it be a sign of a *really*
clever design, to get such rich structure to emerge from just a few
simple laws?

This is a 3 MB file. If you give a listen, you'll see that my
structure didn't come out very rich - not a good sign if I am worried
about my cleverness!

Jim

🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

i had held off mentioning it but since you have set of rules or opportunities depending on how you look at it., there ws something in the sound that reminded me of Hindemith.
but i hate to say it sounds like blah blah cause it is more subtle in that the similarity is in feeling the ratonale working but sometimes surprised by where it takes us. this produces a particular emotional environment.
So my question is if you were giving instructions to humans to make these choice how exactly would you word it. since there is no right or wrong answer here it seems safe to put it in their hands without worring about the consequences

Since i don't think you are on the metatuning list and you did bring up the intelligent design in relation to evolution, there is more than one one way to resolve the two into being different aspects of the same thing.
One could see evolution as the result of the intelligent design at the source, but the opposite is possible in that evolution might have a ultimate goal of intelligent design. there are even some christian thinkers who have proposed this
Jim K wrote:

>--- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K" <kukulaj@y...> wrote:
> >
>>http://www.artsong.org/cnf/player.asp?ID=698
>> >>
>
>I wrote up a little web page explaining the system I used to generate
>this:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/kukulaj/music/grammar.html
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
>
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

sorry that was meant to be off list

Kraig Grady wrote:

> Hi Jim!
> Sorry for the delay on answering. i seem to have accidentally have > erased your last message. so please send a link to your last piece.
> while i understand the the humble limitations of what you are trying > to do, i will say that your results are musical and that you do make > decisions along those lines that i think elevate it beyond a mere > exercise.
>
> i do have a link to your page where you explain how you put your > pieces together.
>
> The possible ways i can see developing it as far as more voices.
>
> If one could have one voice move twice as slow as the other this might > produce interesting results .
>
> While you have one voice choices of notes being referenced by it > relationship to the other there is no reason why one could not apply a > third voice which was referring the position of the second. there was > some early counterpoint where such references were pursued with > interesting results. Also there was a practice where all the > consonance were in relationship to one voice so you could do this also.
> this means that the 2nd and 3rd voices might be dissonant to each > other, but maybe there would be set up some way they might move toward > each other, even , if by the time they got there, they had moved on.
> This would be the advantage of having them move at different speeds so > that the third would have time to resolve toward the 2nd etc.
> hopefully this might be useful to you.
>
> Some papers on the eikosany here
> http://anaphoria.com/wilson.html if you scroll down to a subsection.
> also a few of my stuff is here
> http://anaphoria.com/eikopapers.html
> which has some structures with the centered pentad lattices which i > mention below so you know which one i am talking about.
>
>
>
> My idea would be to take the the centered pentad lattice (produces > the ten sided lattice) where each tone is connected to three others > and one would set up choices between these 3. i could run off six of > these to start with frequencies as there are consistent ways to > determine whether one goes up or down to get a particular note
> From there it would be good to be able to shift to version of this > lattice that had different harmonics in the center. what happens is > what ever harmonic is in the center determines what all the other > intervals are in the sense that they will always involve that harmonic.
>
> I will stop here.
>
>
>
> Jim K wrote:
>
>> --- In MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com, "Jim K" <kukulaj@y...> wrote:
>> >>
>>> http://www.artsong.org/cnf/player.asp?ID=698
>>> >>
>>
>> I wrote up a little web page explaining the system I used to generate
>> this:
>>
>> http://www.geocities.com/kukulaj/music/grammar.html
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>>
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--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Hi Jim!
Sorry for the delay on answering. i seem to have accidentally have erased your last message. so please send a link to your last piece.
while i understand the the humble limitations of what you are trying to do, i will say that your results are musical and that you do make decisions along those lines that i think elevate it beyond a mere exercise.
i do have a link to your page where you explain how you put your pieces together.

The possible ways i can see developing it as far as more voices.

If one could have one voice move twice as slow as the other this might produce interesting results .

While you have one voice choices of notes being referenced by it relationship to the other there is no reason why one could not apply a third voice which was referring the position of the second. there was some early counterpoint where such references were pursued with interesting results. Also there was a practice where all the consonance were in relationship to one voice so you could do this also.
this means that the 2nd and 3rd voices might be dissonant to each other, but maybe there would be set up some way they might move toward each other, even , if by the time they got there, they had moved on.
This would be the advantage of having them move at different speeds so that the third would have time to resolve toward the 2nd etc.
hopefully this might be useful to you.

Some papers on the eikosany here
http://anaphoria.com/wilson.html if you scroll down to a subsection.
also a few of my stuff is here
http://anaphoria.com/eikopapers.html
which has some structures with the centered pentad lattices which i mention below so you know which one i am talking about.

My idea would be to take the the centered pentad lattice (produces the ten sided lattice) where each tone is connected to three others and one would set up choices between these 3. i could run off six of these to start with frequencies as there are consistent ways to determine whether one goes up or down to get a particular note
From there it would be good to be able to shift to version of this lattice that had different harmonics in the center. what happens is what ever harmonic is in the center determines what all the other intervals are in the sense that they will always involve that harmonic.

I will stop here.
Jim K wrote:

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

53-equal in CSound

🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

🔗jaytee110180 <jaytee110180@...>

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

🔗Chris Bryan <melandchris@...>

🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗jack smiley <jacksmiley@...>

🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

🔗Jim K <kukulaj@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>