Re: [MMM] Microtonality in NI's Kontakt sampler -- keyboard mappings

Bill,

{you wrote...}
>I have (so far) implemented this by having the user choose a MIDI note >number corresponding to the starting pitch and another corresponding to >the lowest keyboard note. I am wondering if there is a better way.

I don't have a good answer to that, but ...

>Also, if anyone is using Kontakt, I would be happy to share the script.

If you find a magic way to make this happen, I might purchase Kontakt. The last missing link in my setup is a way to use at least some sampled material that I can alter the tuning in. One semi-way is to use CronoX 3, but it really isn't intended as a full-on sampler.

One of the things I've thought about is how best to allocate which samples get used for a key. Since most available sample sets come in 12tet, it would be important to, say, use the c#3 sample for any of the pitches that would be in a <50 cent vicinity of that sample, meaning that a tuning might use fewer samples, but individual ones that are spread over a couple of keys. (if that makes any sense)

Please report back any progress.

Oh: still waiting for your sax work... :)

Cheers,
Jon

Earlier, I wrote:

>> Also, if anyone is using Kontakt, I would be happy to share the
script.

to which Jon Szanto <jszanto@c...> replied:

> If you find a magic way to make this happen, I might purchase
Kontakt. The
> last missing link in my setup is a way to use at least some sampled
> material that I can alter the tuning in. One semi-way is to use
CronoX 3,
> but it really isn't intended as a full-on sampler.
>
> One of the things I've thought about is how best to allocate which
samples
> get used for a key. Since most available sample sets come in 12tet,
it
> would be important to, say, use the c#3 sample for any of the
pitches that
> would be in a <50 cent vicinity of that sample, meaning that a
tuning might
> use fewer samples, but individual ones that are spread over a
couple of
> keys. (if that makes any sense)

Well, no magic (this isn't Hogwarts school of music here)
but I do have the script working (though as I indicated,
only for equal temperaments).
It's easy to share as well, you just take the script and put
it in the right place on your hard drive. Then it appears
as a menu item under the "scripts" menu of Kontakt...
you can retune any instrument this way.

I know what you mean about using the correct sample, and
I'm pretty sure the script is doing this right -- the samples
in a Kontakt instrument are assigned to a range of MIDI notes.
The script first figures out which is the closest MIDI note
to the one desired and then retunes. Of course, if you go really
high (like it's easy to in something like 7-tet) you'll
be transposing the highest sample way too far and you'll hear
artifacts. But if you stay within the normal range of the
instrument, then this isn't an issue.

--Bill Sethares

Jon (Szanto) you wrote,

> The last missing link in my setup is a way to use at least some sampled
> material that I can alter the tuning in. One semi-way is to use CronoX 3,
> but it really isn't intended as a full-on sampler.

Have you tried Rhino's sampling? It does some sampling, and I've used it.

> One of the things I've thought about is how best to allocate which
> samples get used for a key.

At least Rhino lets you do that. It has a file format for assigning
particular WAV files to key ranges. At least it lets you roll your own.

The thing it doesn't do is use any sound-font file format.

Have you tried RGC audio's sampler offerings? The free sfz sampler works
pretty well; their high-end sampler can use Scala files. (I haven't tried
it; it's a bit outside my price range right now.)

Rick

Rick,

{you wrote...}
>Have you tried Rhino's sampling? It does some sampling, and I've used it.

Of the possibilities I have, Rhino is the most awkward of the bunch. I'm not as fond of tweaking envelopes, etc, in Rhino as in my other synths. But since I use a number of Dan Maurer's banks, it is obvious what one can do with a custom waveform, and therefore a potential sample.

>The thing it doesn't do is use any sound-font file format.

I'd only use a soundfont if I had to, because of the extra effort to bundle it, etc.

>Have you tried RGC audio's sampler offerings? The free sfz sampler works >pretty well; their high-end sampler can use Scala files. (I haven't tried >it; it's a bit outside my price range right now.)

Well, I like these two products, but I don't believe there is any direct Scala support (only the z3ta+ has). If it does, it is buried in a manual and not in their descriptive specs. If I really needed a straightforward sample playback unit, this might be it, combined with an sfz format file.

However, right now the most straightforward implementation would be CronoX 3, because they've expanded the ability to place samples over keyranges, and incorporate direct .tun file compatibility. I'll have to try it with a good sample set and some intricate tunings. Somewhere down the road, however, as I've just taken on a project to do about 10' of music for a choreographer that is going to be due in about a month...

Cheers,
Jon

Jon,

> But since I use a number of Dan Maurer's banks, it is obvious
> what one can do with a custom waveform, and therefore a potential
> sample.

Yeah, Daniel does some nice sampling work with Rhino. I've found Rhino not
really too difficult to work with, if you're incorporating samples into a
more complex voice. And I like Rhino's envelopes a lot. With samples in
Rhino, you don't need to do much fancy envelope editing. I've seen some of
Daniel's voices with circa 5 or 6 different samples spread across the
keyboard. And Rhino gives you precise control over specifying the actual
pitch of a sample, so that you can "get it right" in a microtonal context.

> right now the most straightforward implementation would be CronoX
> 3, because they've expanded the ability to place samples over keyranges,
> and incorporate direct .tun file compatibility.

Zowie... Uh, how come I haven't tried this one yet!? Can you send the list
a pointer to info on CronoX 3?

> I've just taken on a project to do about 10' of music for a
> choreographer that is going to be due in about a month...

Ah, I am envious. I can't ever get choreographers to listen, much less
commission ;-)

Rick

Rick,

{you wrote...}
>With samples in Rhino, you don't need to do much fancy envelope editing. >I've seen some of Daniel's voices with circa 5 or 6 different samples >spread across the
>keyboard. And Rhino gives you precise control over specifying the actual >pitch of a sample, so that you can "get it right" in a microtonal context.

OK, I'm more intrigued, I'll have to fiddle with it at some point.

>Zowie... Uh, how come I haven't tried this one yet!? Can you send the list >a pointer to info on CronoX 3?

http://www.linplug.com/Products/CronoX3/cronox3.htm

In V2, they had Scala/tun support listed right on the web page, in the move to V3 that little element got lost. But I assure you it is there. If you download the demo, you click on the LinPlug logo on the front of the instrument, and it flips to a back panel, which has a few setting, including the option to load a .tun file. I find CX3 to be a much deeper and flexible instrument than CX2, and haven't had the time to really do a lot with it, mainly found a number of presets I like, and did some tweaking of others. The nice thing is that it is backwards compatible with CX2 patches.

>Ah, I am envious. I can't ever get choreographers to listen, much less >commission ;-)

Well, I'm doing this a little bit for "arts" sake, as there will only be a "commission" if a grant comes through. But she was a dancer in a company that I had done a number of pieces for, and knows my music, so we both have an OK comfort level. And I *do* love working with music/dance, very synergistic.

Cheers,
Jon