Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup harmonic_entropy standing waves and phi

Hello group. I read the statement below, and was wondering if you
scholars would be kind enough to say whether it is true, and if so,
where I could learn more about it?

"When different frequency waves meeet, they add and multiply. Phi
permits waves to intersect in orderly, harmonic patterns...thus waves
of a different length form a stable nest. In electronics, this
is 'heterodyne', and is used to modulate radio and tv signals..."

Also (---going out on limb here!) could it be possible that there is
some sort of interaction of harmonics, almost like the interference
pattern referred to above, but at the level of harmonics, which is
involved with the perception of 'chord color'? I guess I'm sort of
thinking of that older theory of dissonance pertaining to coinciding
partials....

If this is all too murky to even respond to, I understand! It's just
that I sort of visualize chord color, like synthesia, and am trying to
understand it...

thanks, Kelly

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...>

--- In harmonic_entropy@yahoogroups.com, "traktus5" <kj4321@h...>
wrote:
> Hello group. I read the statement below, and was wondering if you
> scholars would be kind enough to say whether it is true, and if so,
> where I could learn more about it?
>
> "When different frequency waves meeet, they add and multiply.

It depends in what sense you mean "add" and "multiply". It can't be
in one and the same sense.

> Phi
> permits waves to intersect in orderly, harmonic patterns...

This seems to be *least* true for phi and *most* true for simple-
integer ratios, doesn't it?

>thus waves
> of a different length form a stable nest.

Ditto.

> In electronics, this
> is 'heterodyne', and is used to modulate radio and tv signals..."

We can discuss heterodyning, and we can heterodyne using Phi as the
frequency ratio, but nothing about heterodyning assumes or
necessarily has to do with Phi.

> Also (---going out on limb here!) could it be possible that there
is
> some sort of interaction of harmonics, almost like the interference
> pattern referred to above,

I don't know what interference pattern was referred to above,
exactly. Could you give more from this source? I'm sure there was
more to it than these unclear, seemingly erroneous statements about
Phi.

> but at the level of harmonics, which is
> involved with the perception of 'chord color'? I guess I'm sort of
> thinking of that older theory of dissonance pertaining to
coinciding
> partials....

Well, then a chord would seem to have a different color if it were
tuned slightly differently, yes?

> If this is all too murky to even respond to, I understand! It's
just
> that I sort of visualize chord color, like synthesia, and am trying
to
> understand it...

Cool!

🔗traktus5 <kj4321@...>

--- In harmonic_entropy@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In harmonic_entropy@yahoogroups.com, "traktus5" <kj4321@h...>
> wrote:
> > Hello group. I read the statement below, and was wondering if
you
> > scholars would be kind enough to say whether it is true, and if
so,
> > where I could learn more about it?
> >
> > "When different frequency waves meeet, they add and multiply.
>
> It depends in what sense you mean "add" and "multiply". It can't
be
> in one and the same sense.

I see what you mean. I'm mindful of your earlier comments
on 'multiplication tones'. I saw the comment in a 'sacred
geometry' text (indulge me for a moment), where, I believe in the
pre-Hellenic style of algebra [eg, Egyptian], there is a permutation
of phi where there is addition on one side and multiplication on the
other, which caught my attention, since, being the musician and
number mystic I am (numbers are archetypes -- didn't Plato believe
so too? -- so intervals are for me too), I've always been struck by
three beautiful chords which have that same feature of simutaneous
addition and multiplication:
5/4 x 3/2 = 15/8; 5/3 x 4/3 = 20/9; and 7/5 x 3/2 = 21/10 -- where
the numerators add up to, and the denominators multiply up to ( in
the first case) 8...and, in the next two chords, give 9, and 10, in
the same manner. That's all! And they're such beautiful sounding
chords to boot, so far removed from that detestable (in my opinion)
sound of the dominant seventh chord (alone), or even the triad!

(I know my numbers are somewhat arbitrary, there being alternative
numberings for the intervals, but I am comfortable with Occam's
razor approach of lowest number, and have some other
considerations...and see my comments below about temporarily setting
aside tuning issues during this stage of my research.)

>
> > Phi
> > permits waves to intersect in orderly, harmonic patterns...
>
> This seems to be *least* true for phi and *most* true for simple-
> integer ratios, doesn't it?

Yes!

>
> >thus waves
> > of a different length form a stable nest.
>
> Ditto.

Continuting from above, that's what I'm trying to get my hands on...
reading about the mixing of light waves...that, for instance, the
dominant seventh chord and triad have practially no 'nest'; it's
strait out of one harmonic series, just one vibration pattern, or
expanding circle of sound, so to speak, whereas the mixture of
harmonic patterns in other chords is clearly more interesting....
(I'm still working this out)...and am trying to figure out how it's
related to presumed basic forces in music, such as the tritone,
minor-ness, and the self similarity, or energy gradient, of I is to
V as IV is to I.

>
> > In electronics, this
> > is 'heterodyne', and is used to modulate radio and tv signals..."
>
> We can discuss heterodyning, and we can heterodyne using Phi as
the
> frequency ratio, but nothing about heterodyning assumes or
> necessarily has to do with Phi.
>
> > Also (---going out on limb here!) could it be possible that
there
> is
> > some sort of interaction of harmonics, almost like the
interference
> > pattern referred to above,
>
> I don't know what interference pattern was referred to above,
> exactly. Could you give more from this source? I'm sure there was
> more to it than these unclear, seemingly erroneous statements
about
> Phi.

It's a fairly, I realize, mushy 'geometrical philosophy' essay.
I'm reading up on heterodyning, to clarify.

> > but at the level of harmonics, which is
> > involved with the perception of 'chord color'? I guess I'm sort
of
> > thinking of that older theory of dissonance pertaining to
> coinciding
> > partials....
>
> Well, then a chord would seem to have a different color if it were
> tuned slightly differently, yes?

Absolutely. You've been very patient with my bias. I just haven't
had the exposure to microtonal music yet, (Bach, Stravinsky,
Schoenberg, Part, Cage, etc, yes) and just work on my piano, which
I don't tune myself, but share, with the tuning group, an intense
interest in the math of music, and a desire to expand beyond
conventional harmony (my speciality being alternate, 'functional'
[non-dominant] harmony). Can you suggest an easily obtainable CD
of alternate tuned music? (I have no speakers on my computer.)

Thanks for your comments. -Kelly

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

Hi Kelly,

I think Paul answered the points on phi pretty much
as I would have, so I won't repeat any of that.

But I'm intrigued by your synaesthetic experience of
chord colour. How vivid would you say the colours were
to you? The reason I ask is because I have only very
faint colour associations with harmony, but do have a
stong and different kind of synaesthesia with music,
namely texture, as in the sense of touch. I'm talking
about smooth and rough, brittle, spiky, watery, muddy,
velvety, slub linen, fine cotton lawn, silk, honey and
molasses! Is this unusual, do you think?

Regards,
Yahya
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday 24 May 2005 9:06 am
Subject: [harmonic_entropy] standing waves and phi

[Yahya Abdal-Aziz] ------------8><----------Snip!

If this is all too murky to even respond to, I understand! It's just
that I sort of visualize chord color, like synthesia, and am trying to
understand it...

thanks, Kelly

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🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@...>

--- In harmonic_entropy@yahoogroups.com, "traktus5" <kj4321@h...>
wrote:

> Continuting from above, that's what I'm trying to get my hands
on...
> reading about the mixing of light waves...that, for instance, the
> dominant seventh chord and triad have practially no 'nest';

What does this mean? What's a 'nest'? Why don't they have one? How
are you assuming these chords are tuned? I would have presumed the
opposite -- the waveforms nest better for these chords than for
almost any others -- but I need more specifics on how you're defining
these terms.

> it's
> strait out of one harmonic series, just one vibration pattern, or
> expanding circle of sound, so to speak, whereas the mixture of
> harmonic patterns in other chords is clearly more interesting....
> (I'm still working this out)...and am trying to figure out how it's
> related to presumed basic forces in music, such as the tritone,
> minor-ness, and the self similarity, or energy gradient, of I is to
> V as IV is to I.

I think the common-practice associations we have with the tritone,
dominant-to-tonic pull, etc., are very much cultural, and those in
other cultures don't necessarily hear these things in the same way.
There are many layers between acoustic reality and psychomusical
reality, and one of the huge ones is culture.

> > > > but at the level of harmonics, which is
> > > involved with the perception of 'chord color'? I guess I'm
sort
> of
> > > thinking of that older theory of dissonance pertaining to
> > coinciding
> > > partials....
> >
> > Well, then a chord would seem to have a different color if it
were
> > tuned slightly differently, yes?
>
> Absolutely. You've been very patient with my bias.

I don't know what your bias is. Since you're speaking of just ratios,
but your only listening was in 12-equal, there isn't any way that
your statements can be tested or verified, since there's no tuning
that would be appropriate.

> I just haven't
> had the exposure to microtonal music yet, (Bach, Stravinsky,
> Schoenberg, Part, Cage, etc, yes) and just work on my piano, which
> I don't tune myself, but share, with the tuning group, an intense
> interest in the math of music, and a desire to expand beyond
> conventional harmony (my speciality being alternate, 'functional'
> [non-dominant] harmony). Can you suggest an easily obtainable CD
> of alternate tuned music? (I have no speakers on my computer.)

Easley Blackwood's CD _Microtonal_ might be a good, easily obtainable
start. You can hear all the ETs from 13 to 24 on it (not necessarily
all presented in their best light).

🔗traktus5 <kj4321@...>

Hi Yahya,

> But I'm intrigued by your synaesthetic experience of
> chord colour. How vivid would you say the colours were
> to you? The reason I ask is because I have only very
> faint colour associations with harmony, but do have a
> stong and different kind of synaesthesia with music,
> namely texture, as in the sense of touch. I'm talking
> about smooth and rough, brittle, spiky, watery, muddy,
> velvety, slub linen, fine cotton lawn, silk, honey and
> molasses!

I've been thinking about this, recalling interviews with true
synaesthesics (?), and am not sure....

I don't actually vividly see colors, but what I think happens is
that, when listening to and thinking about music, I force a
comparison to the behavior of light, and other natural phenomenon.
So, in that part of the brain which 'sees' things internally, as
part of the thought-process, that's were I envision sound as light
waves.

Do you agree that this is not true synaethsisia? Maybe it could be
called 'Hinking'!

Kelly

🔗traktus5 <kj4321@...>

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

Kelly,

You're actually talking o some fairly subtle sounds
- for example, balloons rubbing together - and some
that are very difficult to record realistically - all
those sibilants. No, I've never come across any sound
recordings that focus on them. I think you might make
a very strange and evocative soundscape if you did it
right.

Regards,
Yahya
-----Original Message-----
From: traktus5
Sent: Friday 27 May 2005 16:00 pm
To: harmonic_entropy
Subject: [harmonic_entropy] texture smooth and rough, brittle, spiky,
watery, muddy...

Yahya wrote <I have only very
> faint colour associations with harmony, but do have a
> stong and different kind of synaesthesia with music,
> namely texture, as in the sense of touch. I'm talking
> about smooth and rough, brittle, spiky, watery, muddy...

It's interesting you say this, as I've always felt that a 'percussion'
section of the orchestra should include instruments which produce all
the sounds you just mentioned. I especially like high pressure
hissing sounds, like you get from a steam plant (and from the 's'
sound in human speech), or that soothing sound, from central heating,
of warm air blowing into your room in the middle of the night, or the
sounds of balloons bouncing off each other in the wind. Do you know
of any good 'musique concrete' recordings which feature this sort of
music?

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🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

Hi Kelly,

True synaesthesia, as I understand it, consists in
perceiving things _as if_ through another sense; there's
no question of forcing anything.

Certainly, when I take the trouble to relax, close my
eyes and listen deeply, there are warmly coloured
patterns swirling around behind my eyelids, and a
particular colour may suddenly "pop out" quite vividly,
only to be eventually caught up in the maelstrom. This
happens most often with whites, intense blues, pale
sunny yellows and deep greens. Is this synaesthesia,
or have I just learnt these associations over time?
I'm not forcing these colours to happen; they're quite
spontaneous and unpredictable. In my case, it seems to
be more a response to mood than to any particular kinds
or qualities of musical sound.

What do you mean by 'hinking'? I have no idea - well,
no VERBAL idea, but I do have some strange associations
...!

Regards,
Yahya
-----Original Message-----
From: traktus5
Sent: Friday 27 May 2005 13:30 pm
To: harmonic_entropy
Subject: [harmonic_entropy] seeing as opposed to thinking of colors

Hi Yahya,

I've been thinking about this, recalling interviews with true
synaesthesics (?), and am not sure....

Do you agree that this is not true synaethsisia? Maybe it could be
called 'Hinking'!

Kelly

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🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>

Hi again Kelly,

I read your reference right through.

Well, the first few paragraphs - up to the heading
"Applications?" - seems sound enough, if basic,
heterodyne theory. From that point on, I really
couldn't comment coherently, as he's talking about
many ideas and authors I haven't heard of. Except
that I'm fairly sure that the "structure of reality"
is a bit more complex than the relationships between
pi, phi and e.

Regards,
Yahya

-----Original Message-----
From: traktus5
Sent: Friday 27 May 2005 15:35 pm
To: harmonic_entropy
Subject: [harmonic_entropy] source for "heterodying and powers of phi"

>"When different frequency waves meeet, they add and multiply.

> > It depends in what sense you mean "add" and "multiply". It can't
be > in one and the same sense.

The source on this (it may be new-agey, soft science) is:

http://www.soulinvitation.com/heterofi/heterofi.htm

Anything to this?

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