warbling

>> () On the harmonic entropy list, when we were listening to chords of
>> tones with harmonic content, at least two of us reported hearing a
>> "warbling", "pulsing" at a rate which could only have been caused by
>> the presence of virtual pitches (not combination tones).
>
>i don't remember this being our conclusion. could you point us to
>this discussion again? perhaps on the harmonic entropy list
>itself . . .

See msg. number 174.

-Carl

--- In harmonic_entropy@y..., Carl Lumma <carl@l...> wrote:
> >> () On the harmonic entropy list, when we were listening to
chords of
> >> tones with harmonic content, at least two of us reported
hearing a
> >> "warbling", "pulsing" at a rate which could only have been
caused by
> >> the presence of virtual pitches (not combination tones).
> >
> >i don't remember this being our conclusion. could you point us to
> >this discussion again? perhaps on the harmonic entropy list
> >itself . . .
>
> See msg. number 174.
>
> -Carl

i don't see how the presence of virtual pitches would help explain
this. virtual pitches occur at the missing fundamentals of
approximate harmonic series. that would be at the "1" of the
9:10:11:15 chord.

meanwhile, it's obvious that i was stoned when i wrote that message.
in fact i remember it -- i was at ara's apartment late at night.
anyhow, the most prominent combinational tones at low volumes are of
the form 2*a - b. and 2*10 - 9 = 11. so there ya go. combinational
tones do seem to be at work, explaining the warbling.

should one of us report back to the tuning list on this?

>>>>On the harmonic entropy list, when we were listening to
>>>>chords of tones with harmonic content, at least two of us
>>>>reported hearing a "warbling", "pulsing" at a rate which
>>>>could only have been caused by the presence of virtual
>>>>pitches (not combination tones).
>>>
>>>i don't remember this being our conclusion. could you point us to
>>>this discussion again? perhaps on the harmonic entropy list
>>>itself . . .
>>
>>See msg. number 174.
>
>i don't see how the presence of virtual pitches would help explain
>this. virtual pitches occur at the missing fundamentals of
>approximate harmonic series. that would be at the "1" of the
>9:10:11:15 chord.

I thought you were suggesting a 2nd-order virtual pitches, if you
will.

>meanwhile, it's obvious that i was stoned when i wrote that message.
>in fact i remember it -- i was at ara's apartment late at night.
>anyhow, the most prominent combinational tones at low volumes are of
>the form 2*a - b. and 2*10 - 9 = 11. so there ya go. combinational
>tones do seem to be at work, explaining the warbling.

:)

Is there a name for 2*a-b combination tones? These are louder than
a-b and a+b at low volumes, eh?

>should one of us report back to the tuning list on this?

Go ahead.

Actually, what do you think of a binaural version of this chord,
and see if the warbling goes away?

-Carl

--- In harmonic_entropy@y..., Carl Lumma <carl@l...> wrote:

> Actually, what do you think of a binaural version of this chord,
> and see if the warbling goes away?

i'd want to check over the psychoacoustic literature again to make
sure cubic difference tones aren't *supposed* to be audible
binaurally . . .

>>Actually, what do you think of a binaural version of this chord,
>>and see if the warbling goes away?
>
>i'd want to check over the psychoacoustic literature again to make
>sure cubic difference tones aren't *supposed* to be audible
>binaurally . . .

How could a difference tone possibly be audible binaurally? I
thought binaural tests were one of the classic ways researchers
showed virtual pitch to be distinct phenomena from combination
tones.

>>I hear slow beats, warbles, etc. in just chords and dyads on my PC,
>>Mac, and synth and I ascribe them to slight mistunings.
>
>right, but this was some pretty *fast* beating/warbling carl was
>talking about . . .

I wouldn't put it past some MIDI setups, but the experiment was done
with wav files made in Matlab.

-Carl

--- In harmonic_entropy@y..., Carl Lumma <carl@l...> wrote:
> >>Actually, what do you think of a binaural version of this chord,
> >>and see if the warbling goes away?
> >
> >i'd want to check over the psychoacoustic literature again to
make
> >sure cubic difference tones aren't *supposed* to be audible
> >binaurally . . .
>
> How could a difference tone possibly be audible binaurally?

cubic difference tones are thought to come from a higher level of
processing than the non-linearities that cause most other
combinational tones.

> I
> thought binaural tests were one of the classic ways researchers
> showed virtual pitch to be distinct phenomena from combination
> tones.

one way i know that they've been shown to be distinct is that they
occur at different pitches when the input is a slightly inharmonic
set of partials.

> >>I hear slow beats, warbles, etc. in just chords and dyads on my
PC,
> >>Mac, and synth and I ascribe them to slight mistunings.
> >
> >right, but this was some pretty *fast* beating/warbling carl was
> >talking about . . .
>
> I wouldn't put it past some MIDI setups, but the experiment was done
> with wav files made in Matlab.

. . . tuned to the exact cent values reported.