Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup crazy_music Re: [cm] Re: compositional methods

> From: Carl Lumma <carl@...>
> To: <crazy_music@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 11:49 AM
> Subject: [cm] Re: compositional methods
>
>
> As some of you know, I'm not actively composing in microtonal
> tunings right now. The reason for this is simple -- I know how
> I'd like to compose microtonally, and the tools I want don't
> exist yet. So, I've chosen to use my time to create those tools
> first.

Hi Carl,

I'm sure I've already done this, but I'd like to invite you
once again to join my justmusic list:
/justmusic

That list is intended primarily for programmers and secondarily
for mathematicians who can help the programmers, but anyone with
a healthy interest in lattice diagrams *AND* their eventual use
as a compositional aid is welcome, and you fit the bill.
Note that recently Dave Keenan and Graham Breed have finally
succumbed to my begging. Paul hasn't yet, but I'm still working
on him too! :)

> ...
>
> 1. I built a 15-limit guitar. I'm not a guitarist, but this
> instrument is very valuable to me for ear training. John
> Starrett (hi, John!) also showed me that in a guitarist's hands,
> the instrument was capable of making world-class music. I
> almost gave it to him on the spot.

This is remarkably similar to an experience I had. Microtonal
wildman Brink McGoogy (who uses what I consider to be some of
the most far-out tunings I've ever heard described -- mostly
phi-based, but I don't really understand what he's doing,
altho I really like some of his music) is a frequent visitor
to San Diego, and when he first saw my Rational Guitar (which
really ought to be renamed Harmonic Guitar, because the frets
give only harmonics of the lowest string), he jammed on it and
made music I never thought possible.

> ...
>
> New Method 3.
>
> A keyboard with more than 12 tones per octave. I've read and
> traveled extensively to learn about what I want... I've got every
> extant paper by Bosanquet on microfilm/xerox, I've met with Erv
> Wilson, Michael Zarkey (and played his 19-of-31 harpsichord), and
> Scott Hackleman (and played his 19-tET clavichord), Harvey Starr
> (and fingered his prototype MicroZone), and Paul Vandervoort
> (and played his Janko-keyboard piano). I even lived with Norman
> Henry for three months, playing his 11-limit harpsichord and
> helping him develop his 15-limit fortepiano. My conclusion is
> that Wilson's hexagonal keys are not desirable. Vandervoort has
> the best bet, and his MIDI controller (with polyphonic aftertouch,
> optical action, for about $2000!) will be along shortly.

Carl, you may have missed a lot of the early discussion about
the MIRACLE tunings, in April and May of this year. Graham and I
(and perhaps Paul and Dave?) pretty much came to the conclusion
that Harvey Starr's Ztar layout was the best way to accomodate
this on a real instrument. The Ztar has 144 keys, which maps
2 full 8ves of the 72-EDO scale quite comfortably. I've also
come up with a couple of good 31-tone mappings, since I'm interested
in exploring the Canasta version of MIRACLE. Search for my posts
during those months on the main list (and probably tuning-math too),
and check out these webpages for some ideas on this:
http://tonalsoft.com/enc/number/72edo.aspx
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/dict/canasta.htm
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/blackjack/blackjack.htm

Note that on the Canasta page I show a mapping of that tuning to the
computer keyboard which can be used in the oldest version of JustMusic
to actually play and record individual microtonal tracks of a MIDI-file.

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

🔗carl@...

>I'm sure I've already done this, but I'd like to invite you
>once again to join my justmusic list:
>/justmusic

I'm actually planning to quit all lists in a week or two, so...
Thanks for the invite, though. :)

>That list is intended primarily for programmers and secondarily
>for mathematicians who can help the programmers, but anyone with
>a healthy interest in lattice diagrams *AND* their eventual use
>as a compositional aid is welcome, and you fit the bill.
>Note that recently Dave Keenan and Graham Breed have finally
>succumbed to my begging. Paul hasn't yet, but I'm still working
>on him too! :)

Like Paul and you, I also independently came up with the animated
lattice idea. Stephen Malinowski once asked me about something
like it, and I told him about it, and he coded it up, though for
his own purposes and in his own way. I myself did not see it as a
composition tool, and to this day I think it would be far more
useful as an ear training and vis. tool than a composition tool.
It's a great idea, but I've got several lifetimes of coding on
my plate that I'm even more excited about.

>> New Method 3.
>>
>> A keyboard with more than 12 tones per octave. I've read and
>> traveled extensively to learn about what I want... I've got every
>> extant paper by Bosanquet on microfilm/xerox, I've met with Erv
>> Wilson, Michael Zarkey (and played his 19-of-31 harpsichord), and
>> Scott Hackleman (and played his 19-tET clavichord), Harvey Starr
>> (and fingered his prototype MicroZone), and Paul Vandervoort
>> (and played his Janko-keyboard piano). I even lived with Norman
>> Henry for three months, playing his 11-limit harpsichord and
>> helping him develop his 15-limit fortepiano. My conclusion is
>> that Wilson's hexagonal keys are not desirable. Vandervoort has
>> the best bet, and his MIDI controller (with polyphonic aftertouch,
>> optical action, for about $2000!) will be along shortly.
>
> Carl, you may have missed a lot of the early discussion about
> the MIRACLE tunings, in April and May of this year. Graham and I
> (and perhaps Paul and Dave?) pretty much came to the conclusion
> that Harvey Starr's Ztar layout was the best way to accomodate
> this on a real instrument.

I read most of that thread, actually. FYI, above, I was speaking
more about shape and orientation of digitals than the mapping of
notes to the keyboard. In this regard, the Ztar requires a
completely different technique than the one pianists use, which is
the one I happen to be good at.

Mapping is a fabulous topic though! My mappings take a somewhat
different approach than Wilson et all, and your suggested Miracle
mapping. I don't go for transpositional equivalence. Instead,
my mapping is equivalent at the scale steps of the 10-tone MOS at
the heart of Miracle (as the Halberstadt is for the diatonic
scale at the heart of meantone).

> Note that on the Canasta page I show a mapping of that tuning to
> the computer keyboard which can be used in the oldest version of
> JustMusic to actually play and record individual microtonal tracks
> of a MIDI-file.

Believe it or not, Joe, I've seen almost all of your web page.
Aside from organizational troubles (which you've recently
discussed :), it rocks. I've also downloaded and exhaustively
explored the proof-of-concept of JustMusic on two separate
computers.

-Carl

🔗monz <joemonz@...>

> From: <carl@...>
> To: <crazy_music@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 6:52 PM
> Subject: [cm] Re: compositional methods
>
>
> >I'm sure I've already done this, but I'd like to invite you
> >once again to join my justmusic list:
> >/justmusic
>
> I'm actually planning to quit all lists in a week or two, so...
> Thanks for the invite, though. :)
> ...
> It's a great idea, but I've got several lifetimes of coding on
> my plate that I'm even more excited about.
> ...
> I read most of that thread, actually. FYI, above, I was speaking
> more about shape and orientation of digitals than the mapping of
> notes to the keyboard. In this regard, the Ztar requires a
> completely different technique than the one pianists use, which is
> the one I happen to be good at.
> ...
> Believe it or not, Joe, I've seen almost all of your web page.
> Aside from organizational troubles (which you've recently
> discussed :), it rocks. I've also downloaded and exhaustively
> explored the proof-of-concept of JustMusic on two separate
> computers.

OOPS!... my bad! Sorry for assuming that you weren't familiar with
all this stuff, Carl. :(

Now *this*...

> Mapping is a fabulous topic though! My mappings take a somewhat
> different approach than Wilson et all, and your suggested Miracle
> mapping. I don't go for transpositional equivalence. Instead,
> my mapping is equivalent at the scale steps of the 10-tone MOS at
> the heart of Miracle (as the Halberstadt is for the diatonic
> scale at the heart of meantone).

Yup -- I'm with you on that! I've also thought that Graham's
decimal MIRACLE notation would map nicely to some form of keyboard
... just haven't had the inspiration or time to probe it.
Toss out a few ideas -- I'm certainly interested, and there's
the (very slim... but hey, I'll try...) chance that I might be
able to get Harvey into it enough to build a prototype. :)

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

🔗X. J. Scott <xjscott@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

Yes credit to Brian
And possibly a big footnote to John Whitney whose work implied such
things!

"X. J. Scott" wrote:

>
> [Carl said to Joe:]
>
> > Like Paul and you, I also independently came up with the
> > animated lattice idea.
>
> Just for historical interest, I'd like to add that
> mclaren personally described his idea for this software
> to me in great detail and in the presence of Dr.
> Chalmers and Jonathan Glasier many years ago, before
> anyone else even started talking about these things. As
> far as I can tell, Brian invented the idea of dynamic
> multidimensional latticing software and I hope to see
> him properly acknowledged someday for his contribution.
>
> - Jeff
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>
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-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

🔗X. J. Scott <xjscott@...>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...>

🔗carl@...

> Just for historical interest, I'd like to add that
> mclaren personally described his idea for this software
> to me in great detail and in the presence of Dr.
> Chalmers and Jonathan Glasier many years ago, before
> anyone else even started talking about these things. As
> far as I can tell, Brian invented the idea of dynamic
> multidimensional latticing software and I hope to see
> him properly acknowledged someday for his contribution.

Brian Mclaren is a god. Only alien genetics could account
for the kind of foresight it takes it invent animated lattice
software.

Never mind two of the people who've actually written such
software: Stephen Malinowski and Dave Keenan. Three years
is plenty of time for the idea to have seeped out of Brian
McLaren's brain at night and into the universal physic idea
tank, from which people like Stephen Malinowski and Dave
Keenan obviously scavenged it.

-Carl

🔗carl@...

>> Mapping is a fabulous topic though! My mappings take a somewhat
>> different approach than Wilson et all, and your suggested Miracle
>> mapping. I don't go for transpositional equivalence. Instead,
>> my mapping is equivalent at the scale steps of the 10-tone MOS at
>> the heart of Miracle (as the Halberstadt is for the diatonic
>> scale at the heart of meantone).
>
>
> Yup -- I'm with you on that! I've also thought that Graham's
> decimal MIRACLE notation would map nicely to some form of keyboard
> ... just haven't had the inspiration or time to probe it.
> Toss out a few ideas -- I'm certainly interested, and there's
> the (very slim... but hey, I'll try...) chance that I might be
> able to get Harvey into it enough to build a prototype. :)

Nice thing is, this is not necessary. The ideal set of digitals
is more or less independent from the tuning you put on them.
Vandervoort's Daskin keyboard has about the ideal digitals, IMO.
You can put any tuning you like on it. It's even better for
12-tET than Halberstadt.

-Carl