Re: [crazy_music] Censorship, totalitarianism and Schoenberg

----- Original Message -----
From: <xed@...>

> Study carefully Joe Monzo's abject pleas to
> censor my words, ladies and gentlemen. An when Joe
> Monzo gets down on his knees to plead for
> someone (anyone!) to censor my words, ask yourself:
> What is Joe Monzo afraid of?

Actually, we just find you irritating.

db

> From: <xed@...>
> To: <crazy_music@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 12:19 AM
> Subject: [crazy_music] Censorship, totalitarianism and Schoenberg
>
>
> There is no surprise, ladies and gentlemen,
> that Joe Monzo has now raised his voice to
> beg someone to censor my posts.

Got it wrong again, Brian.

I did not "beg someone to censor" your posts.
I simply said that what you wrote "is a clear violiation
of Yahoo's Terms Of Service" -- which is true; read the
TOS if you don't believe me --, and that Yahoo should
be alerted to the fact. What happens after that is up
to Yahoo.

> It cannot be otherwise -- for Schoenberg's
> vision of music is fundamentally repressive, it
> is based on the rigid and brutal avoidance of
> basic human behaviors...tonality, functional
> harmony, diatonic melodies.

Wrong again. Schoenberg's vision of music (specifically,
his vision of it from around 1905-1913, which is the
period I'm interested in and I write about) is based
on the desire to eliminate restrictions that had been
"enforced" by standard music-theory, and to liberate
composers's musical imagination from such restrictions.

> Like the repressive Soviet state that could
> only maintain its rigid rules by crushing its
> citizens and oppressing them, Schoenberg's ideas
> can only be maintained and popularized in music
> by using totalitarian methods.
> And that's exactly what was done in American
> university music departments after WW II.
> Schoenberg's ideas were forced upon students
> and other faculty using totalitarian methods --
> censorship of opposing points of view, the
> crushing of freedom of speech, and purges
> designed to eliminate non-Schonbergian ideas
> from the university music departments.

The use other people made of Schoenberg's ideas,
and the style they used to teach them, cannot be
blamed on Schoenberg.

> Thus we would expect Joe Mozno to attempt to
> use the totalitarian methods of censorship to
> crush me, to silence me, to blot out my words
> before anyone can read them, since Joe Monzo is
> the most devout Schoenberg cultist on this tuning
> list.
> Study carefully Joe Monzo's abject pleas to
> censor my words, ladies and gentlemen. An when Joe
> Monzo gets down on his knees to plead for
> someone (anyone!) to censor my words, ask yourself:

Again, I never asked anyone to censor anything.
I simply pointed out to everyone on this list that
there is one person who is not following the rules
established for discussion here, and that person is
Brian McLaren.

> Ask yourselves, ladies and gentlemen... Why
> does Joe Monzo shrink in terror from the open
> debate of a free society?

Wrong again.

Joe Monzo is fearless and does not "shrink in terror"
from anything at all, least of all from "the open debate
of a free society".

> Could it be because Joe Monzo has been
> infected with the totalitarian ideology
> Schoenberg preached?
> Could it be that Joe Monzo has been so
> thoroughly indoctrinated in Schoenberg systems
> of thought that his only reponse to criticism of
> his musical commissar is the knee-jerk cry for
> censorship characteristic of all toadies who
> have sacrificed their consciences on the altar
> of a totalitarian ideology?

Could it be that Joe Monzo is really tired of reading
posts by Brian McLaren in which he hopes that his eyes
catch genuine useful scientific or musical information
as the vast bulk of the post -- filled with errors, insults,
name-calling, pointless off-topic references to Nazis and
Soviet ideology, and very little relevance to the post by
Monzo to which this is supposed to be a response --
zooms past as he searches for the good stuff?

Yes, it could be this, and it is this.

There's nothing wrong with using strong language in a
debate, but gratuitous harrassment of a list subscriber
is a clear violation of the policy that all of us have
agreed to in order to carry on discussion here.
The evidence of his posts shows that Brian McLaren is
*repeatedly* guilty of this behavior.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

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--- In crazy_music@y..., xed@e... wrote:

/crazy_music/topicId_unknown.html#666
> And that's exactly what was done in American
> university music departments after WW II.
> Schoenberg's ideas were forced upon students
> and other faculty using totalitarian methods --
> censorship of opposing points of view, the
> crushing of freedom of speech, and purges
> designed to eliminate non-Schonbergian ideas
> from the university music departments.

As someone who was in the university systems at that time (late 60's)
I can vouch that this part is absolutely true.... There *was*
a "totalitarian" "correctness" in the air, literally, at that time.

____________ __________ ________
Joseph Pehrson