chris bailey? three thumbs up!

> http://music.columbia.edu/~chris/sounds/sonata.7lim.mp3

> http://music.columbia.edu/~chris/sounds/sonatacr7nm.mid

> John DeLaubenfels was kind enough to adaptively tune my Piano
> Sonata (first movement) to 7 limit JI,

Ha ha ha!

Darnit to gosh Chris, you've done a number on that one,
you little sneak you! ;-)

Hoo boy! Yeaahhhh...

OK, now I can come 'out of the closet' regarding my
hidden feelings about John deLaubenfels' adaptive
tuning, the subject of a certain amount of controversy.

I accept that John actually likes those consonant
low-limit chords. And I believe that he hears things
the way he does. And that is fine. EVERYBODY has
programmed their neural networks differently and
projective value judgements are impossible. We can only
describe what we ourselves hear and have no ability to
hear what other people do.

I listen to all the examples he puts up of well know
music he's retuned and it drives me nuts! I hate it! It
sounds horrible to me! I can hardly bear to listen to
it!

I remain quiet though since I see there is potential.

But I know that his whole system is under development
and so I trudge on, obediently listening to each new
example, hoping that *someday* I won't be irritable and
annoyed after listening to these brutal abominations!!

Today is that day!

Instead of some *old* composition which most decidedly
was *not* written for low limit just intonation (and
for which it should possibly be a criminal offense to
so deface :-) ), here we have a new composition,
written with modern ears, and tested on the system.

It's great! I love it!

(I love Bailey's oog too -- he is a composer to be
reckoned with, that's for sure. We don't hear much from
him but it is universally of the highest quality.)

CONGRATULATIONS JOHN AND CHRIS!!!

The tool of jdl style adaptive tuning has found an
audience and a use. It is no longer experimental -- I
declare it good enough for government work, and perhaps
even more! :)

And it's not as consonant as before -- maybe Chris has
managed to fool the system, to prevent it from tracking
his every harmonic move. Perhaps the excitement I hear
is the conflict between Chris trying to escape the evil
consonance while John resolutely pursues him,
desperately trying to make everything smooth! If so,
maybe Chris isn't using the tool for what it was
intended but none of that matters. All that matters is
that the music is funny and fresh and interesting and a
real delight! Chris, you took on a difficult challenge,
one I woud have said was impossible, but you have
succeeded fabulously!

It kicks ass, Chris! You've got some real cajones to
accept the challenge and succeed at the impossible in
so conclusive and definitive a manner. I respect you.

Great stuff! Keep up the good work both of you!

- Jeff

[Jeff Scott wrote:]
>OK, now I can come 'out of the closet' regarding my
>hidden feelings about John deLaubenfels' adaptive
>tuning, the subject of a certain amount of controversy.
>
>I accept that John actually likes those consonant
>low-limit chords. And I believe that he hears things
>the way he does. And that is fine. EVERYBODY has
>programmed their neural networks differently and
>projective value judgements are impossible. We can only
>describe what we ourselves hear and have no ability to
>hear what other people do.
>
>I listen to all the examples he puts up of well know
>music he's retuned and it drives me nuts! I hate it! It
>sounds horrible to me! I can hardly bear to listen to
>it!
>
>I remain quiet though since I see there is potential.
>
>But I know that his whole system is under development
>and so I trudge on, obediently listening to each new
>example, hoping that *someday* I won't be irritable and
>annoyed after listening to these brutal abominations!!

"Brutal abominations", huh? I'll take that as a negative response ;->.
Just out of curiosity, do you feel this about the 5-lim and the 7-lim
tunings, or mainly the 7? For example, the Mozart K.280, if you've
heard it (it's on my web page) - to me, the 5-limit sounds very mild.

I like Christopher's piece a lot, too. To my ear, though, retuning it
is no more or less appropriate than retuning older works. Guess we'll
have to agree to disagree about that, which is fine.

I want everyone to know it's ok to say you don't like what I do. The
only comments that frustrate me are ones from people who condemn without
actually listening. I'd rather get a true and accurate picture of
whether I'm succeeding in pleasing than get a whitewash. Nobody needs
to be "in the closet".

Certainly my ultimate goal is to use my techniques on new music, my own
and/or others'.

Chris, any idea when the other movement(s) of your sonata may be ready?
Can't wait to hear 'em!

JdL

--- In crazy_music@y..., "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...> wrote:
<snip>
> I want everyone to know it's ok to say you don't like what I do.
>The
> only comments that frustrate me are ones from people who condemn
>without
> actually listening. I'd rather get a true and accurate picture of
> whether I'm succeeding in pleasing than get a whitewash.
<snip>
> JdL

Much as I love critiquing music I haven't heard, I will comment on
what I have heard of your retuning. I like what your adaptive tuning
does, to Chris' music as well as to that of the old masters. I
disagree strongly with those who say that the Three Bs and Mozart
(and everyone else, for that matter, including Partch) wrote for the
capabilites of the instruments of their times, so that's what they
wanted their music to sound like. It's a mighty poor composer
whose mind's ear is no better than the performance by others on
imperfect instruments. Of course, a modern reinterpreter should really
understand the music well to redo it properly. I think what you are
doing would probably have been appreciated by the old rogues.

However, I like to be surprised, and I actually enjoyed the perversity
of the sudden comma shifts in your very first efforts. It was almost
like a barbershop quartet retuning on the fly to the lead vocalist. If
your adaptive retuning program becomes a commercial product, I hope it
will be flexible enough so that men of ill will can do all kinds of
naughty tricks to innocent midi files.

(here I am jumping in on commentary not addressed to
me)

> I disagree strongly with those who say that the Three Bs and
> Mozart (and everyone else, for that matter, including Partch)
> wrote for the capabilites of the instruments of their times,
> so that's what they wanted their music to sound like.

Heresy!

Toccata and Fugue in D Minor sounds best on an organ
tuned close to 12tET. Sounds HORRID in ther tunings. So
many diminished 7ths that really must be symmetrical to
sound best.

Les Barricades Mysterieuses (Couperin) -- sounds like
cr*p in anything other than meantone. That realization
is what got me started.

> It's a mighty poor composer whose mind's ear is no better
> than the performance by others on imperfect instruments.

Ad hominem! Disqualification!

> Of course, a modern reinterpreter should really understand
> the music well to redo it properly.

Don't care what you say -- I don't like Peter Sellers.

> I think what you are doing would probably have been
> appreciated by the old rogues.

You are right about this John.

> If your adaptive retuning program becomes a commercial
> product, I hope it will be flexible enough so that men of ill
> will can do all kinds of naughty tricks to innocent midi
> files.

This is an undeniable fact!

- Crazy Jeff

--- In crazy_music@y..., "X. J. Scott" <xjscott@e...> wrote:
> (here I am jumping in on commentary not addressed to
> me)

OK by me.

> > I disagree strongly with those who say that the Three Bs and
> > Mozart (and everyone else, for that matter, including Partch)
> > wrote for the capabilites of the instruments of their times,
> > so that's what they wanted their music to sound like.
>
> Heresy!

Yup.

> Toccata and Fugue in D Minor sounds best on an organ
> tuned close to 12tET. Sounds HORRID in ther tunings. So
> many diminished 7ths that really must be symmetrical to
> sound best.

I agree that it sounds great in 12tet, and the diminished chords are a
problem in many diatonic approximating tunings. Haverstick and I are
working on Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody #2 in 19tet (_that_ should cause
constranation to some!), and there are big problems with the
diminished chords. Don't know what we will do about that.

> Les Barricades Mysterieuses (Couperin) -- sounds like
> cr*p in anything other than meantone. That realization
> is what got me started.

Never heard it in meantone. Heard a 12tet midi version that really did
sound like crap though.

> > It's a mighty poor composer whose mind's ear is no better
> > than the performance by others on imperfect instruments.
>
> Ad hominem! Disqualification!

I stand by my misstatements and disqualified ad homenim attacks.

> > Of course, a modern reinterpreter should really understand
> > the music well to redo it properly.
>
> Don't care what you say -- I don't like Peter Sellers.

Is this a reference to The Strange Word of Henry Orient, or a
missppelling of Peter Sellars, or what? Me no get.

> > I think what you are doing would probably have been
> > appreciated by the old rogues.
>
> You are right about this John.

Finally. Yea JDL.

> > If your adaptive retuning program becomes a commercial
> > product, I hope it will be flexible enough so that men of ill
> > will can do all kinds of naughty tricks to innocent midi
> > files.
>
> This is an undeniable fact!
>
> - Crazy Jeff